This means going shopping?
Sadly, no. That would take up extra time that I'd rather not spend right at the immediate moment. We may see about doing a shopping trip later once we have a better idea of other things we might want to test that we would want some sort of measurement apparatus for.

I just want to see if there's stuff in the immediate vicinity that we can make use of.

The method with which Kinematics proposes to conduct grief science on everything *OTHER* than the grief seeds doesn't have enough control of the various possible ways for inert grief to behave, and quite frankly I don't think we have enough data to actually design an experiment for unrefined grief and its properties.
Note that I didn't get too deep into the further experiments yet, as there are tons of things I want to check on, but I didn't want to get bogged down in that when I'm trying to focus on just the first stage. Generally, want to avoid the confusion of trying to do too many different things at once, here.

Also, @Kinematics, any objection to these?
[X] Create as big mass of marble grief as you can. Carefully touch different seeds to it, starting with the emptiest.
[X] Take a grief marble, will it to absorb other grief. Check with seeds.
The first one sounds reasonable. I'm not sure how the second one can be meaningful, given that we've spent several days with lots of grief marbles jammed together in the bag. The seed part of it sounds exactly like the first one, too.

Essentially, it sounds like we want to see if a grief seed will absorb free-floating grief when we don't actively "put" the grief back inside? Or are you testing for whether a large grief mass will 'pull' the grief out of the seeds? I'd probably want to put off tests with the massive grief ball for the moment.

Possibly:
[] Create one marble of grief and place it on a table. Do not actively manipulate it.
-[] Test each grief seed (Control, Aurora, Hildegarde) to see whether it absorbs the grief from simply being in contact with it.
[] If the above test comes out negative, try again with a large grief sphere (2m), testing for any grief movement in either direction.
 
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If it isn't, magic is going to win this war big time.

How would we determine it, from, say, Kyoko-like illusions?

Well what defines matter?

Wikipedia-sensei said:
Before the 20th century, the term matter included ordinary matter composed of atoms and excluded other energy phenomena such as light or sound. This concept of matter may be generalized from atoms to include any objects having mass even when at rest, but this is ill-defined because an object's mass can arise from its (possibly massless) constituents' motion and interaction energies. Thus, matter does not have a universal definition, nor is it a fundamental concept in physics today. Matter is also used loosely as a general term for the substance that makes up all observable physical objects.

All the objects from everyday life that we can bump into, touch or squeeze are composed of atoms. This atomic matter is in turn made up of interacting subatomic particles—usually a nucleus of protons and neutrons, and a cloud of orbiting electrons.[3][4] Typically, science considers these composite particles matter because they have both rest mass and volume. By contrast, massless particles, such as photons, are not considered matter, because they have neither rest mass nor volume. However, not all particles with rest mass have a classical volume, since fundamental particles such as quarks and leptons (sometimes equated with matter) are considered "point particles" with no effective size or volume. Nevertheless, quarks and leptons together make up "ordinary matter", and their interactions contribute to the effective volume of the composite particles that make up ordinary matter.

Matter commonly exists in four states (or phases): solid, liquid and gas, and plasma. However, advances in experimental techniques have revealed other previously theoretical phases, such as Bose–Einstein condensates and fermionic condensates. A focus on an elementary-particle view of matter also leads to new phases of matter, such as the quark–gluon plasma.[5] For much of the history of the natural sciences people have contemplated the exact nature of matter. The idea that matter was built of discrete building blocks, the so-called particulate theory of matter, was first put forward by the Greek philosophers Leucippus (~490 BC) and Democritus (~470–380 BC).[6]

Matter should not be confused with mass, as the two are not quite the same in modern physics.[7] For example, mass is a conserved quantity, which means that its value is unchanging through time, within closed systems. However, matter is not conserved in such systems, although this is not obvious in ordinary conditions on Earth, where matter is approximately conserved. Still, special relativity shows that matter may disappear by conversion into energy, even inside closed systems, and it can also be created from energy, within such systems. However, because mass (like energy) can neither be created nor destroyed, the quantity of mass and the quantity of energy remain the same during a transformation of matter (which represents a certain amount of energy) into non-material (i.e., non-matter) energy. This is also true in the reverse transformation of energy into matter.

Different fields of science use the term matter in different, and sometimes incompatible, ways. Some of these ways are based on loose historical meanings, from a time when there was no reason to distinguish mass and matter. As such, there is no single universally agreed scientific meaning of the word "matter." Scientifically, the term "mass" is well-defined, but "matter" is not. Sometimes in the field of physics "matter" is simply equated with particles that exhibit rest mass (i.e., that cannot travel at the speed of light), such as quarks and leptons. However, in both physics and chemistry, matter exhibits both wave-like and particle-like properties, the so-called wave–particle duality.

TL;DR: Mass is easy to define, but matter is buttfuck insane to try and define.

The problem with much of this is that we're not sure that Grief in an unmodified state has mass. If it did, it'd be much easier to determine if it might be matter. The problem is that Grief may not even be a physical concept. Without being physical, it can not have any physical properties.

However, it is instructive to note that Grief may be observed in this reality. It is visible, and therefore must interact with photons in some manner. While it is entirely possible that the simple act of extracting grief from a soul gem forces it to conform to reality and exist physically, it is possible to say that the less you modify Grief, the more likely it is to be representative of its original, basic state. Therefore, let us call this freshly-extracted Grief "Basic Grief". bGrief, for short hand.

We may deduce from the observability of bGrief that it reflects or absorbs light in some manner. Whether this manner is inherent to bGrief itself, or if it is due to the way bGrief interacts with the space immediately around it, is currently unknown. However, whichever is true, this implies that at the very least, photons interact with bGrief or the space around it.

bGrief is a very dark purplish color. We may deduce from this that the vast, vast majority of energy striking bGrief is absorbed into it, increasing the vibrational energy of bGrief's microscopic components (we do not know if these components follow the Standard Model). Some is re-radiated as Purple Light, however. This indicates that bGrief at least has behaviours that closely resemble electrons re-emitting energy due to excitation.

This chain of deductions ultimately arrives at a good possible way of determining the nature of bGrief, and therefore Grief itself:

Let us examine the Standard Model. The parts of the standard model that are easiest for humans to observe are Electrons and Photons. If bGrief at least behaves like the Standard Model, then:

1) If we heat bGrief up to a very high temperature, it should radiate light of some wavelength. It is very possible that bGrief simply absorbs all the energy all the way to infinity, but an infrared sensor will allow us to determine if it changes temperature. If bGrief behaves like the Standard Model, Massive Buttfuck Insane amounts of heat should result in the bGrief radiating light in the Visible Spectrum.

2) bGrief behaves like either an insulator, semiconductor, or conductor. Let us arrange bGrief around a conductive rod (Rod A), then apply increasingly large voltages to bGrief through another conducting rod (Rod B). If bGrief is an insulator, we should measure no current in Rod A while the voltage is below a certain threshold. I propose 100V as being a reasonable number. If it is a semiconductor, we should see varying current flow for a range of voltages. If it is a conductor, we should see high current flow for very small voltages.

Alternatively everything goes completely out the window the moment we try anything.

In any case, depending on the response to these two experiments, we can deduce (sort of) the degree to which bGrief behaves like the Standard Model. If the Standard Model is essentially matter, then we may reasonably conclude that bGrief is "mostly matter".
 
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In PMMM if theres any magic/science war, magic has very much proven that it has the potential to win big time (See Madokami, Homucifer). In Rebellion Kyubey comes to the same conclusion (magic like that being to dangerous to meddle with), but just a minute too late.
 
In PMMM if theres any magic/science war, magic has very much proven that it has the potential to win big time (See Madokami, Homucifer). In Rebellion Kyubey comes to the same conclusion (magic like that being to dangerous to meddle with), but just a minute too late.

It would have worked out just fine for them too, if Kyubey just let Homura Witch out instead of trying to rub her face in it while she was stull lucid.
 
It would have worked out just fine for them too, if Kyubey just let Homura Witch out instead of trying to rub her face in it while she was stull lucid.
Not so sure there. Homura only truly started witching after he drove her over the edge. That may have been deliberate. Theres no telling how long she could have held on if she hadnt deliberately cursed herself, and we have no idea what madoka and her pawns would have done in the interim.
 
@Crasian01: Conveniently, these sort of things are planned - I even included earlier before simplifying -however source of electricity and heat is bit of a problem.
 
Not so sure there. Homura only truly started witching after he drove her over the edge. That may have been deliberate. Theres no telling how long she could have held on if she hadnt deliberately cursed herself, and we have no idea what madoka and her pawns would have done in the interim.

It was still happening, and the Incubators could afford to be patient, as they already had a fragment of Madoka trapped in there. Even if Madoka had pulled Homura out of it, that would still have been a win for the Incubators, because they got a lot of intel out of the experiment. Homura would have had no idea what the Incubators were planning if Kyubey hadn't decided to gloat, and she might not have gone full AI YO.
 
@Crasian01: Conveniently, these sort of things are planned - I even included earlier before simplifying -however source of electricity and heat is bit of a problem.

Reasons I ended up going "eh, fuckery it is".

Honestly, I am not that confident in the results we get unless we have a proper facility to do science in. Magical Fuckery will probably get reasonable results from an engineering standpoint, and as long as we have a behavioural relationship, I don't think we need to do a rigorous scientific examination of bGrief.

That being said, if Homura happens to have some bunsen burners and an unused room lying around her apartment.....
 
Haven't read large chunks of the SCIENCE conversation since the update, but I would like to point out one thing:

A grain of sand has a mass of around a microgram, which converts to about 100 MJ. That's a lot of energy, but it's not as much as you'd might think: it's about 20 kg of TNT.

Here's 5 kg of TNT being completely contained inside an armored vault:
.

We honestly don't need to worry about neutrino flux at the quantities we can generate, so as long as we've got some fake-lead around it to catch gamma rays, mass to energy conversions aren't going to be that dangerous to test. Antimatter is dangerous, but don't overestimate it either.
 
It was still happening, and the Incubators could afford to be patient, as they already had a fragment of Madoka trapped in there. Even if Madoka had pulled Homura out of it, that would still have been a win for the Incubators, because they got a lot of intel out of the experiment. Homura would have had no idea what the Incubators were planning if Kyubey hadn't decided to gloat, and she might not have gone full AI YO.
Right. Without knowledge that she was in an incubator experiment intent on capturing Madoka, she probably wouldn't have stopped Madoka from leading her away.

Thing is, Incubators have one glaring red weak spot: greed. In rebellion, they wanted Homura to call to Madoka for help, rather than just allowing Madoka to interfere naturally. They would have gotten much less information out the latter, but it also would have been less risky. In the original series, Kyubey could have harvested humanity for the foreseeable future, but instead he chose to give far too much information to Madoka, causing the Madokami wish. The whole rebellion experiment was unnecessary, as they could just farm wraiths forever, but instead they decided to mess with a god. Incubators get reckless when they're greedy.
 
It was still happening, and the Incubators could afford to be patient, as they already had a fragment of Madoka trapped in there. Even if Madoka had pulled Homura out of it, that would still have been a win for the Incubators, because they got a lot of intel out of the experiment. Homura would have had no idea what the Incubators were planning if Kyubey hadn't decided to gloat, and she might not have gone full AI YO.
Probably. Kyubey may have had no real choice though. At least once he started talking, maybe overall, from within his ethics/compulsions/whatever.
Because Kyubey seems to do more than not lie. He will answer any question apparently, or give the reason why he wont, and may be forced to grant a wish after he promised a contract (see madokami, him being horrified but going on anyway).
Sadly we dont know the whole limits of his behaviorcode, but its possible (not saying canon or even likely, just possible) that at this point for whatever reason homura had the right to request the truth or something.


Hmm, thinking about this further, i just hit on another interesting line of thought, that may prove (or at least indicate) that homucifer at the end didnt cause bad things for magical girls (as some speculate). Namely this: Madoka was inside that isolation bubble for three months. So... the law of cycles on the outside? Since i dont believe shed doom X magical girls to witchdom(If that happend it would also been a win for the incubators), it apparently can keep working without her person(ality) attached.

I wonder if proto witch homura could have managed to restore her perfect dreamworld and maybe re-erase her memory had she calmed down, but at best shes bought more time. And the incubators can likely wait until the stars burn out, and kyubey can just keep prodding in various ways if ncessary.
 
You mean testing if we can convert grief to known elements and then seeing if it reacts like it should? I don't think we've done that, but I also am not sure what you mean.
Could use grief to make catalysts or heat, I guess? Could prompt a chemical reaction without transmutated grief being part of the end product, which would allow it out of our range.
 
You guys and your math and science, can't we just like do some artsy stuff and make some music?

"Mumi! Have you heard my new symphony of despair and tragedy?"
"Mumi! Gaze upon my latest creation! The Moment the Bomb Dropped by Sabrina the Grief Sculptor!"
"Mumi! Wake up! Listen to this! See this! Praise me! Praise me!"
"Mumi!"
"Mumi!!!!"
"Mommy!"

Mumi has been delimpeted in half a day. A new record!
 
Not adding to the current vote, but given concerns some have about other things that need to be tested, here's possible Stage 2 ideas. Will make a separate post for Stage 3 ideas.


Stage 2: Behavior

Primary interest is behavior when Sabrina is not actively controlling it, particularly when the grief is outside her standard control range (100m).

[] Acquire two 55-gallon drums that we can put stuff on (or tables, but I know that there were drums around from the last time we dropped by here).
[] Place drum 1 at point A.
-[] Place 1-marble cube on top of drum.
-[] This will test whether grief itself can be maintained in solid form outside of our range.
[] Take drum 2 150m away, so that we're well outside the control range of the cube on drum 1.
-[] Create a small metronome on drum 2. Set it in motion.
-[] This will test whether simple mechanical behavior persists out of our range.
[] Return to drum 1. Is the cube still intact?
-[] If not, further behavioral testing is probably not viable. Clean up and proceed to stage 3.
-[] If so, change the properties of the cube to a glass-like substance.
-[] This will test whether property changes persist outside of our range.
[] Return to drum 2. Is the metronome still active?
-[] If so, change it to a small instrument and have it start playing a tune.
-[] This will test whether controlled intent can be persisted outside of our range.
[] Return to drum 1. Is the cube still glass-like?
-[] If so, create a more complex construct composed of multiple simple properties (glass, gold, sand, stone, etc).
-[] This expands on the test for whether property changes persist.
[] Return to drum 2. Is the instrument still playing?
-[] Change the physical properties of the instrument (eg: a brass horn).
-[] Leave the instrument in place and playing.
-[] Periodically verify that it's still active during the remainder of our testing.
[] Return to drum 1. Verify status and clean up.

The above tests most major concepts about what we can expect to persist in things we create when they are no longer directly under our control.
- Collected grief
- Simple properties and collections of simple properties
- Motion from standard mechanics
- Complex behavior

Overall, should be another 15 minute test or so.
 
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Testing if grief instructions persist after leaving our range...

You know, we can take grief away from witch barriers. Can we do the opposite? Repair foreign witch barriers? Add to them? Modify parts of it and have the changes persist when we return the grief to the witch's control?
 
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