We have a good base, enough to safely invest 1 main into specialists. Blackbirds I think is the best since they're both scouts and police, but Chariots is the most efficient in terms of martial/action. Both are guaranteed some sort of advancement, whereas basic warriors is only a chance for that.
No we don't. We've barely done one Main Expand Warriors. We need to do two more.
We *can* but it is suboptimal to do so, especially since we *can* do Study Metal* the turn after. Or, if a sacrifice of Centralization is desired, now. I hold expanding spacewise in a higher priority because it is optimal to do so, whereas military can be expanded at any point in time. It is furthermore better to expand now while the DP are distracted by their weakened military, rebellious populace, and increased predation by opposed polities. All of these mean that the wall-less province is still satisfactorily safe, and has time to expand before needing to be walled.
Hardly suboptimal. We will be getting that Econ regardless, just at a slightly slower rate. We can build the settlement next turn.

False. Nobody else wants those hills. Nobody else has the tech to do so.
 
Ok, while I wouldn't actually minded if we did another province since this IS a good opportunity to continue expansion, this is an even better opportunity to expand our tech base without any interference from the DPs, and the expanded warriors will help with protecting any new settlements next turn-plus, you know, finally getting more martial advancements.
 
We're getting one of these regardless. I want lots of Blackbirds and an ongoing anti-corruption campaign when it happens.
Honestly I'd be fine with the Blackbird+order vote, I just think that it's worth slightly more to get metal and more actions.
The one I don't want winning is the Expand Warriors one since that's just not an efficient action right now. Replacing just the main with Blackbirds and it'd be an ok compromise vote, I guess.
No we don't. We've barely done one Main Expand Warriors. We need to do two more.
Including events, we've done an equal amount of warriors and specialists. Our Blackbird and Carrion Eaters have so few members that they don't even contribute to our martial score.
 
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Would folks be okay with a Vote Like this?

Ok had time to think about it. But there are good ideas being thrown around, Like Candesce and Sivantic's, so I might change later.

[X] [Main] Expand Warriors
[X] [Secondary] Study Metal
[X] [Secondary] Establish Annual Festival
 
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Honestly I'd be fine with the Blackbird+order vote, I just think that it's worth slightly more to get metal and more actions.
The one I don't want winning is the Expand Warriors one since that's just not an efficient action right now. Replacing just the main with Blackbirds and it'd be an ok compromise vote, but I

Including events, we've done an equal amount of warriors and specialists. Our Blackbird and Carrion Eaters have so few members that they don't even contribute to our martial score.
Huh?

Don't they?
 
[x][Main] More Blackbirds
[x][Secondary] Restore Order
[x][Secondary] Restore Order x2

Among other things, our actions do not exist inside of a bottle.
Proposing more blackbirds at this juncture and while doing restore order is very much the best chance we have of evolving them into a semi-police force. They could otherwise become better spies or scouts. Doing this this way and at this time will greatly help not only deal with our corruption, but evolve our blackbirds into the direction we want.

Aim for police! It's what our society needs! Also please consider that getting more land to put towards the inheritance problem is going to make dealing with the inheritance problem that much more difficult.

[X] [Main] More Blackbirds
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order x2

Really wanted to kick off the megaproject this turn but Econ is a hair lower than I'm comfortable with given other shenanigans that could pop up.


Order of actions...

Do you want to go negative on econ midturn and have bad things happen? That's how you do it.
Forgot the first [Secondary] Restore order there.
 
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We've various ways of converting one resource into another, and so we can estimate their relative value.

Grand Sacrifice and LoO both put stability at ~1 per 2 economy.

Spending 2 economy to get 1 stability and then spending 1 stability for 2 economy leaves us having wasted actions, given that we've got options that give better returns than equivalent conversion.

So Grand Sacrifice is best done when we need loads of stability right now - which -1 stability doesn't count as - or when we want its nonmechanical effects, aka the "reducing class distinctions" thing.
IIRC we start getting higher rates of return when we sacrifice more (3:2 vs 2:1) and take in more people (6-8/8-11/11-15: 3/4/5). But you are in general correct. Though I'd note that in some cases when we're taken a hit for additional mechanical benefits (e.g. screwing over the DP) GS will be highly useful for balancing an avoidable but worthy stability hit.

Hardly suboptimal. We will be getting that Econ regardless, just at a slightly slower rate. We can build the settlement next turn.

False. Nobody else wants those hills. Nobody else has the tech to do so.
It's free econ. We wouldn't be getting it otherwise because it's a completely free action. By the time we would hit the cap on econ expansion options our provinces would be making new settlements. If we did hit the cap, we'd hit it sooner and do a different action. Aka regardless, we're getting a free action. So choosing to do otherwise is indeed suboptimal.

I said nothing about other people wanting the hills. My words never neared that subject, much less touched upon it. The benefit of making the province now is that the DP is less likely to attack it than if we make it at any other time. This lets us making it w/o making a wall in the same turn. It therefore can expand - as in by using its free econ expansion action - w/o walls, which can be built next turn.

[X] [Main] New Settlement - Eastern Hills
[X] [Secondary] Establish Annual Festival
[X] [Secondary] New Trails
Net Result: -1 Econ, +1 Mysticism, +1 Stability, +1 Centralization, +1 Province Secondary Action, +1 Baby Boom Econ Receipt.
 
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I'd like to ask people currently voting for [Main] Expand Warriors to consider [Main] More Blackbirds instead. Blackbirds could also give us military or training technologies, and has the benefits of having lots of spies and police when we get this turn's event about local government corruption.
 
I mean, as long as we study metal this turn I don't reqally care, but my vote is at least coherent on what we're doing, and that is tech advancement and stability boosting. We don't need to restore order to get stab up.
 
Baby Boom has yet to pay out, that +6 was just from the actions taken last turn, I just realized that half was on a longer payout schedule.
So to confirm, the bonus from baby boom is not listed on the character sheet, and so we'll have:
3 Econ at the start of the turn, from our current stockpile
+3 Econ at the end of the turn, from past actions (i'm assuming the effects of integrating the fishing minors?)
+3 Econ during the turn from Baby Boom expand economy actions, with their position in the action order determined by our admin roll
+ or - econ as relevant from our voted-upon actions and our 3 province actions, again with their time-of-application determined by our admin roll
Right?
 
[X] [Main] Expand Warriors
[X] [Secondary] Study Metal
[X] [Secondary] Expand Annual Festival
Gonna want to change that to establish not expand. typo.
[x][Main] More Blackbirds
[x][Secondary] Restore Order
[x][Secondary] Restore Order x2
*Sigh*
Ok someone said it well and clarified my thoughts. Siding with @bluefur87 and @Candesce
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Apr 18, 2017 at 9:09 PM, finished with 18931 posts and 20 votes.

Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Apr 18, 2017 at 9:10 PM, finished with 18934 posts and 21 votes.
 
Alrighty, analysis first as usual. Hopefully we didn't spawn 5 pages before I'm done since there's a lot of work today x.x

Economy 2(+6)->3(+3)

Err...not sure how this lines up, because we seem to have lost 5 points somewhere and boats should only cost 2.
@Academia Nut
Clarify?

Martial 6(+1)->7

Credited as expected

Stability 0->-1

People aren't happy about the search for solutions, so time to bring it back up.

No tech advances
The king proposed that there must be some way to reduce the incidence of corruption and cheating and people being generally unpleasant to each other. Perhaps he was right and there was some way, but after a few years of trying all that got him was more people annoyed and mad at him for failing to actually do anything productive, let alone actually manage to successfully address the issue, leaving people madder than ever. They were tired of the way things were run, and wanted something new, something more fair than having elders and clan heads manipulate the system against them, and then tell them that if they worked harder they too might be able to screw over other people one day. The movement to change how land management was done was growing, and the king and chiefs needed to figure out a solution relatively soon.
So the Hierarchy stress continues to build.

At least the integration of the fishing minors went relatively smoothly, although unfortunately the Dead Priests didn't have the good sense to collapse into chaos and anarchy yet.
And the cockroaches don't die, as usual.

Establish Annual Festival - A yearly harvest festival and a planting festival brings entertainment and stability by reminding people of the good things in life, and can help teach newcomers the ways of the People, so perhaps another festival might be of use?
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Stability, chance for additional effects
* M: -1 Econ, +1 Stability, +1 Art, chance for additional effects
* Max Stability: Legitimacy - 1
Well, we can afford it, and it delays the grumpiness problem so we can find a solution.
Expand Economy - Encourage the growth of food producing activities such as farming, pastures, or fishing, depending on where focus is placed
* +1 Econ, potential additional effects
* 12 uses remain before requiring new territory
Twelve economy slots, and we'd use between 3 to 6 of them this turn. Settlements not super urgent, but a province is still desirable.

Grand Sacrifice - Communal sacrifice is a great way to bring the People together, and to also even out class distinctions. NOTE: Because the People do not use human sacrifice, the Econ costs are especially harsh. Max Stability: Legitimacy
*S: -2 Econ, +1 Stability
*M: -3 Econ, +2 Stability
And we have the Grand Sacrifice unlocked as a means of restoring Stability. Not capped like Festivals are, but less economical.

However, it events out class distinctions because the powerful must sacrifice more, so it damps down on jealousy, envy and the like

New Settlement - There are a few new sites that could have new settlements placed on them: a new settlement within Redshore (can go further south), within Northshore (further to the west, inland to the north into the plains), badlands, eastern hills, northern pastures within Stonepen
* S: +1 Econ next turn, increases number of times Expand Econ can be taken
* M: +1 Econ and +1 Mysticism end of turn, increases the number of times Expand Econ can be taken
Special: Badlands settlement requires a Main action to work at all and only returns as a Secondary, but increases response time and decreases logistics for movement in and out of the badlands
Special: Main action for Eastern Hills produces a new province
Expand slots are
-Redshore South - Closer to Highland Kingdom
-Northshore West - Closer to Metalworkers
-Northshore North - Closer to Nomads. Fortification desirable
-Valleyhome Badlands - Requires Main action
-Eastern HillsEastern Hills - Requires Main action. Fortification desirable
-Stonepen Northern Pastures - Closer to Nomads. Fortification desirable

So big picture wise unchanged.
Grab the Eastern Hills so we up the Baby Boom income further, fortify it as needed, and try out Grand Sacrifice to ease the social class frictions that we see here:
They were tired of the way things were run, and wanted something new, something more fair than having elders and clan heads manipulate the system against them, and then tell them that if they worked harder they too might be able to screw over other people one day.


[X] [Main] New Settlement - Eastern Hills
[X] [Secondary] Build Wall - Eastern Hills
[X] [Secondary] Grand Sacrifice

Now to catch up on discussion.
 
I'd like to ask people currently voting for [Main] Expand Warriors to consider [Main] More Blackbirds instead. Blackbirds could also give us military or training technologies, and has the benefits of having lots of spies and police when we get this turn's event about local government corruption.
Except we have no martial advancement, we flubbed the roll last time. We're STILL stuck at the small raiding forces stage, which blackbirds only exacerbate.
 
Well, I guess we know why the DP do all those sacrifices.

I see it as a Godsend of Manna from on High. It can be both.

I think AN was taking pity on us. Also I now have very little inclination to fuse away The Greater Good.

This action is (at least mechanically) great, but that just makes me want to fuse it more. One of our main sinks for stability is taking in refuges, which burns stability for econ. Want to be that the merge will reduce or fix that? We can always get greater good yet again.

So Grand Sacrifice is best done when we need loads of stability right now - which -1 stability doesn't count as - or when we want its nonmechanical effects, aka the "reducing class distinctions" thing.

Stability is the new econ. It's the bottleneck resource on many of the most important things we can do. Let's try and pile it up, because we're going to constantly want to burn it, often to burn a lot at once.
 
[X] [Main] New Settlement - Eastern Hills
[X] [Secondary] Build Wall - Eastern Hills
[X] [Secondary] Grand Sacrifice
 
Including events, we've done an equal amount of warriors and specialists. Our Blackbird and Carrion Eaters have so few members that they don't even contribute to our martial score.
I'm counting from the AN post that says we are absolutely no where near parity with the other polities. We've only done one since then.
It's free econ. We wouldn't be getting it otherwise because it's a completely free action. By the time we would hit the cap on econ expansion options our settlements would be making new settlements. Aka regardless, we're getting a free action. So choosing to do otherwise is indeed suboptimal.

I said nothing about other people wanting the hills. My words never neared that subject, much less touched upon it. The benefit of making the province now is that the DP is less likely to attack it than if we make it at any other time. This lets us making it w/o making a wall in the same turn. It therefore can expand - as in by using its free econ expansion action - w/o walls, which can be built next turn.
And not doing it this turn won't make it disappear. It can hold at least three turns(though I wouldn't hold it off that long).

You said people attacking us on those hills if we don't do it this turn. That is my reason for disagreeing. They would have to travel at least two weeks through badlands and attack without their carts to do so. It can wait.
 
Stability is the new econ. It's the bottleneck resource on many of the most important things we can do. Let's try and pile it up, because we're going to constantly want to burn it, often to burn a lot at once.
If you really want lots of stability, the action you should be taking is Restore Order.

It doesn't get quite the same average stability increase as Grand Sacrifice, but since it doesn't cost econ, it can be done a lot more often - and it gives effectively 2 econ worth or resources mained, 1 econ worth as a secondary. And that's before the chance A Greater Good kicks in to give us an effective +2 stability every time we do it.
 
Except we have no martial advancement, we flubbed the roll last time. We're STILL stuck at the small raiding forces stage, which blackbirds only exacerbate.

I hear ya, and I'd very much prefer to do martial advancement this turn. However we need to address our current issues, and this inheritance problem could get mighty dicey. Blackbirds will still help with scouting out nomads, which is one of their biggest advantages being slightly less effective.

It's not a good enough martial advancement or the one we need, but we are actually fighting an internal war at this point that we really don't want to lose. The more blackbirds vote addresses that.
 
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I'd like to ask people currently voting for [Main] Expand Warriors to consider [Main] More Blackbirds instead. Blackbirds could also give us military or training technologies, and has the benefits of having lots of spies and police when we get this turn's event about local government corruption.

Eh, good point. And I guess they are likely to be pretty useful on the defense if we can get their numbers up, provided we back them up with walls and regular warriors to hold the enemy's attention.

[X][Main] More Blackbirds
[X] [Secondary] Study Metal
[X] [Secondary] Establish Annual Festival

I don't like restore order though. I recognize that it has only 1/16 chance of giving -1 with a main action but it still bugs me, and I want to do some metal study since it seems like none of the provinces are doing that.
 
Secondary new sacred warriors didn't raise martial since there just aren't enough of them. We still get their bonus effects and gain the option of expanding the group.

More warriors is something with a ~50% chance of giving an advancement. Grabbing blackbirds or chariots is 100% of getting something.
Umm, we've never done any expand sacred warriors, secondary or main. And yes, they do count towards martial
 
Secondary new sacred warriors didn't raise martial since there just aren't enough of them. We still get their bonus effects and gain the option of expanding the group.

More warriors is something with a ~50% chance of giving an advancement. Grabbing blackbirds or chariots is 100% of getting something.
I'm counting from the AN post that says we are absolutely no where near parity with the other polities. We've only done one since then.

And not doing it this turn won't make it disappear. It can hold at least three turns(though I wouldn't hold it off that long).

You said people attacking us on those hills if we don't do it this turn. That is my reason for disagreeing. They would have to travel at least two weeks through badlands and attack without their carts to do so. It can wait.
I'd like to ask people currently voting for [Main] Expand Warriors to consider [Main] More Blackbirds instead. Blackbirds could also give us military or training technologies, and has the benefits of having lots of spies and police when we get this turn's event about local government corruption.

How about a compromise vote? Garrrrgh I'm flip flopping too much but I like most of these options.:p

[] [Main] Expand Warriors
[] [Secondary] More Blackbirds
[] [Secondary] Establish Annual Festival
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Apr 18, 2017 at 9:15 PM, finished with 18942 posts and 21 votes.
 
[x][Main] More Blackbirds
[X] [Secondary] Study Metal
[X] [Secondary] Establish Annual Festival

Ok, good point. It'll at least have guaranyteed other effects, though as AN has repeatedly pointed out other effects aren't necessarily good things :p
 
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