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Paths of Civilization

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bluefur87 said:
No, that's exactly it.

Out of every single thing we can do, the single most mindless, repetitive, and simplistic task that requires the smallest amount of work out of any of our actions is Blacksoil. It is one of the most likely things to start generating mechanization that we can afford to do. Watermills are probably more likely, but yikes on the costs.

Edit: Also the only way out of this crises is to start the industrialization train. We're going to have to do stuff like this.
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I think the only way increased labor demand leads to mechanization is if we can actually afford the mechanization equipment, and costs like that are mostly Wealth costs, with some Tech costs. So sure, if we take those actions alongside innovator actions like Mills or Support Artisans, then it leads to mechanization. On their own, however, they default to trying to get cheap labor IMO.
 
Glassware said:
Narratively I consider this the worst option. It's the option where we acknowledge that people are suffering in our society, that injustice exists, and then ignore it instead of doing anything. I do not want to find out what kind of Moloch Calls type trait we'd get from that.
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I don't think we would end up with a Moloch calls type situation choosing this perk, I expect it to make our idea of justice more lenient. I doubt it will cause us to just ignore problems in our society or breed corruption like that. Though to be fair, making our "Greater Good" value more lenient as it's own set problems.
The Sandman said:
Putting off the slavery issue just means that we never deal with the problem. Best to do so long before sugarcane or large-scale cotton plantations

And East Asia somehow managed without slave labor, as did Mesoamerica and the Andean civilizations.
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Why would putting it off make it so that we never do it? With the way we built our society we can change much more easily then most. All I want is to wait until we can handle changing things, no one is advocating never changing the system. I just want to wait until we can handle doing it.
 
[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)


[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3
[X] [PP] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2Diplo)

Changed my vote below
 
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[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)

[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[X] [PP] City Support (4 Econ cost for True Cities offset each turn, -1 Tech)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3
 
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Bladesguy said:
I don't think we would end up with a Moloch calls type situation choosing this perk, I expect it to make our idea of justice more lenient. I doubt it will cause us to just ignore problems in our society or breed corruption like that. Though to be fair, making our "Greater Good" value more lenient as it's own set problems.
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We do not have Greater Good, we do have Greater Justice.

Bladesguy said:
Why would putting it off make it so that we never do it? With the way we built our society we can change much more easily then most. All I want is to wait until we can handle changing things, no one is advocating never changing the system. I just want to wait until we can handle doing it.
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We literally did not have a chance to influence treatment of half exiles for hundreds if not thousands of years.
This is the first chance since forever.

We cannot act whe we want to, only when the options appear, and they usually do only during a crisis.
 
George said:
I think the only way increased labor demand leads to mechanization is if we can actually afford the mechanization equipment, and costs like that are mostly Wealth costs, with some Tech costs. So sure, if we take those actions alongside innovator actions like Mills or Support Artisans, then it leads to mechanization. On their own, however, they default to trying to get cheap labor IMO.
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Cheap labor no longer exists after this vote.

I mean, sure, relatively cheap labor will still exist, but people will be incentivezed forever to look for ways to make stupidly simple tasks like black soil easier until it becomes pathetically easy.
 
Wealth death spiral is going to be a thing for us.

I am not voting, because I see no point when I disagree with the majority.
 
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Okay, lets see key items:
[X] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[X] [PP] City Support (4 Econ cost for True Cities offset each turn, -1 Tech)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x4

Taking a shot at the Wonder for a Dam(note that we won't be able to upgrade it into a Wonder later. A Dam must be built from the foundation).
And then to pay for it:
-City Support turns out passive Econ income positive. This is good. We won't have much room to juggle incomes.
-Three Infrastructures. This is the ONLY way we're going to avoid crashing and burning once the costs double. We need the Passives to roll out the Markets while meeting all the other priorities.
-Forget Vassal Support for now guys. We have to deal with being on fire first.
-Forget Skullduggery and Diplomacy as well. We can add those back after the reforms dump a bag of passives in our lap
-And speaking as the Forest Policy guy even forestry is second to this

To highlight just how much we need:
-Final Grand Hall Annex - 3 Progress
-Level 2 Temple - 6 Progress
-Valleyhome Market I - 3 Progress. +2 Wealth/turn
-Sacred Forest Market I - 3 Progress. +2 Wealth/turn
-Blackmouth Market I - 3 Progress. +2 Wealth/turn
-Stallionpen Market I - 3 Progress. +2 Wealth/turn
-Valleyguard Market I- 3 Progress. +2 Wealth/turn

We need 3 Markets to return to Status Quo on passives. We need 5 Markets to return to status quo on spending.

We currently only have +3 Progress per turn. We'd go bankrupt if the trade chokes, and we certainly can't pay for an army!
Ergo, it's time to add +6 Progress per turn if we want to come out of this intact. And pay the city support preemptively because once the Markets arrive we're going to be seeing 2 more cities spawn.

Now to catch up on the rest of the arguing.
 
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[X] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
 
[X] [PP] Defence (+1 significant walls/turn)
[X] [PP] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2Diplo)
[X] [PP] City Support (4 Econ cost for True Cities offset each turn, -1 Tech)
[X] [PP] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
 
[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)


[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3
[X] [PP] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
 
George said:
[X] [PP] Defence (+1 significant walls/turn)
[X] [PP] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2Diplo)
[X] [PP] City Support (4 Econ cost for True Cities offset each turn, -1 Tech)
[X] [PP] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
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We REALLY need the infras to not bankrupt
 
Hell. Let just fucking do it. It's a self-imposed challenge, and we will have to let loose THE INDUSTRIALIZATION TRAIN.

All board the train. Toot! Toot!!

[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[X] [PP] City Support (4 Econ cost for True Cities offset each turn, -1 Tech)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3
 
[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)

[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x4
 
[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[X] [PP] City Support (4 Econ cost for True Cities offset each turn, -1 Tech)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3
 
bluefur87 said:
Cheap labor no longer exists after this vote.

I mean, sure, relatively cheap labor will still exist, but people will be incentivezed forever to look for ways to make stupidly simple tasks like black soil easier until it becomes pathetically easy.
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So labor costs are driven up and there's strain on the system. Without Wealth for innovation, that strain has no outlet other than questioning the wisdom of what was decided.

Incentive without means doesn't produce results.
 
I don't have a very strong opinion on the dam, but by Crow let's do the right thing for the half-exiles.

[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
 
veekie said:
We currently only have +3 Progress per turn. We'd go bankrupt if the trade chokes, and we certainly can't pay for an army!
Ergo, it's time to add +6 Progress per turn if we want to come out of this intact. And pay the city support preemptively because once the Markets arrive we're going to be seeing 2 more cities spawn.
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Now I totally support Infrastructure policies, but, correct me if I'm wrong, don't we currently have 5 progress per turn? We changed 2x Forestry into 2x Infra and have our +1 base. That means we only need two more policies to hit 9x progress per turn.
 
veekie said:
We REALLY need the infras to not bankrupt
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We REALLY need to just not spend nearly as much Wealth, and need to not add a Tech crunch to our Wealth crunch. I think expanding our Infrastructure policy by more than one additional policy will result in a push to a level 3 city and a massive amount of forest consumption that we can't build kilns to fix in addition to ballooning the tech cost of our Expand Economy out of control.

This Wealth cost can't just be waved away by upping our trade-based income, since that's vulnerable to trade disruptions. We have to actually spend less and accomplish goals another way. (such as by building walls and making friends rather than raising armies)

Also, for the record, I support one additional policy, but that's going to pass without issue; I'm tactically voting against further additional policies.
 
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George said:
So labor costs are driven up and there's strain on the system. Without Wealth for innovation, that strain has no outlet other than questioning the wisdom of what was decided.

Incentive without means doesn't produce results.
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Wealth isn't even remotely the only means available, and the extra effects from blacksoil is going to immediately start translating into 'I don't want to shovel shit but we need to do it, how can we make it easier'. We are hardly poor in terms of resources and resourcefulness.
 
[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[X] [PP] City Support (4 Econ cost for True Cities offset each turn, -1 Tech)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3

Changing my vote to City Support instead of Skullduggery.
 
bluefur87 said:
Wealth isn't even remotely the only means available, and the extra effects from blacksoil is going to immediately start translating into 'I don't want to shovel shit but we need to do it, how can we make it easier'. We are hardly poor in terms of resources and resourcefulness.
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Do you know of a better way to produce Black Soil that doesn't involve infrastructure or metal?
 
veekie said:
[X] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)

Taking a shot at the Wonder for a Dam(note that we won't be able to upgrade it into a Wonder later. A Dam must be built from the foundation).
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A Wonder here is not worth it, especially since the primary benefit of making it a Wonder is dick-measuring. Let's get the dam done more cheaply and faster so that we can get the canal going and so we don't bankrupt ourselves on this.

[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3
 
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