pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
If it matters, this makes a critical difference to me too.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
True cities were not always nice.
They will create centralization issues (because the city needs a ton of land around it sending food and resources), and they don't really have a huge benefit. Cities thrive because putting people in one place allows economies of scale, but we simply don't have the technology yet to have meaningfull economies of scale.
They will create centralization issues (because the city needs a ton of land around it sending food and resources), and they don't really have a huge benefit. Cities thrive because putting people in one place allows economies of scale, but we simply don't have the technology yet to have meaningfull economies of scale.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
You wot mate? My last vote was for trails! You going batty?
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
Uhh, it's a grand idea to end with -1 stability (at worst), but 0 most likely (and modest potential for 1 even), while also getting to have +11-15 economy, upgrading our capital area to an early metropolis.
In return, we have some overcrowding issues for a little while (possibly), and we don't get to have the auto-tech upgrade.
Even trade? Probably.
Thing is though that we're actually well-setup to deal with the issues.
1) Admin upgrade should massively help with the True City issues
2) We have 2 province locations left, and getting even 1 is enough to fix the overcrowding issue if it even does trigger (it'd trigger due to having more +econ from the refugees than we have available econ slots)
3) We will have Policy: Restoration available which gets us right back to a safe stability level in 1-2 turns. Guaranteeing Restore Order is available with heroic admin will help us root out the corruption issue that people have been bringing up for a while.
4) We can't effectively deal with the Debilitating Belief for ~2-3 turns once the sickness dies down a little. We fully recover from this in ~1-2 turns and end up with a massive econ surplus and near-certain tech advancement thanks to it.
There was also an overwhelming majority against The Gardens. Having a massive change like that significantly shifts the valuation of the various options. (Going from ~20% chance of civilization failure to a ~0% chance).
edit: for exact values, prior to the reset, there was 8 votes for The Garden vs. 51 for Carrion Eaters. After the reset, The Garden won.
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Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
It wasn't on purpose, I promise!
Really, who assumes that Omegahugger comes up with a plan on his own instead of just plagiarising someone else...
I kept them at bay for several hours, I am very proud of that!
It's not my fault AN didn't update quickly enough for my restrained vote to count.
- Location
- his hidden lair
That was different. This makes a bad option less bad, the Gardens was 'holy shit it's two actions for the price of one!'
Going all in immigrants is and always be an incredibly controversial option, the Garden wasn't anywhere near as controversial in the same sense.
Edit: It's not even like this was some grand revelation for everyone, I'd always assumed our Heroic Admin would be in effect for rolling out the consequences of our choices here.
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I really, really want aqueducts into the northern provinces for several reasons, and that's a big part of why I'm not willing to go along with any plan now that prevents doing them next turn, say by forcing too many actions into stability recovery.
1) It's a demonstration of the value of Ymaryn civilization that is continuous, and not something the northern provinces can do on their own. This both makes it of very obvious value, and also means a breakaway means losing the benefits - we'd be able to cut off the flow of water if things actually went hot, and they'd know that.
2) Making use of aqueducts shows off one of the weaknesses of Stallion culture. Finishing the Gardens talked about how we had to reorganize people's homes to get full use out of it; consider how that will go in a society where people have claim to the land they're currently on. It takes one of the big weaknesses of Stallion culture and shoves their faces in it, and leaves the rest of the Ymaryn utterly and obviously blameless for the resulting problems.
3) It's artisan work. One of the problems with the Stallions is their disrespect of non-military advancement tracks. Having an ever-present reminder of the value of artisans is thus likely to shift their culture in useful ways.
1) It's a demonstration of the value of Ymaryn civilization that is continuous, and not something the northern provinces can do on their own. This both makes it of very obvious value, and also means a breakaway means losing the benefits - we'd be able to cut off the flow of water if things actually went hot, and they'd know that.
2) Making use of aqueducts shows off one of the weaknesses of Stallion culture. Finishing the Gardens talked about how we had to reorganize people's homes to get full use out of it; consider how that will go in a society where people have claim to the land they're currently on. It takes one of the big weaknesses of Stallion culture and shoves their faces in it, and leaves the rest of the Ymaryn utterly and obviously blameless for the resulting problems.
3) It's artisan work. One of the problems with the Stallions is their disrespect of non-military advancement tracks. Having an ever-present reminder of the value of artisans is thus likely to shift their culture in useful ways.
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VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
Why risk going to 0 or -1 stability? We do not have problem of birthing more population but we do have problem of keeping them alive.
So why risk gigantic influx of migrants with varying culture, health, and skills that may introduce unaccountable effects?
We already have good population growth and we shouldn't try to build
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Your agreeing with the shinies over reason faction.
There is no way in Hell The People can soak up so much of HK and not have fundamental changes to the fabric of its society. This new plan is cultural suicide for The People's way of life. Major changes to civics and ideals will happen.
HK must declare war at that point or fail to exist as a political entity. The -4 option is absorbing tens of thousands of people at once. like 30% of the current society in the end.
{M} New Province
{S} Change Policy: Restoration
{S} Aqueduct
How about this? We'll probably need the province to deal with the overcrowding and the restoration policy will fix our stability problems very quickly since it'll have 2 mains of actions going into it. We also get a free switch off of that policy once we're back at maximum stability.
If I'm only getting a secondary for Aqueducts, Policy: Infrastructure isn't optional.
- Location
- USA
There are opportunity costs too. We'll spend all of our Hero's life fixing the issues this creates, doing nothing else. No helping the integration with the Stallion tribes, no trade wave with our hero's backing, no Dam megaproject. If we don't accept the massive refugee wave, I'm fairly sure we can do two out of the three things I've just listed, and be in a great position to deal with the Debilitating Belief after only one turn. Could we start doing those things in 2 or 3 turns? Absolutely, and we would have more Econ to boot. But we might not be able to put off Stallion tribe integration that long, and we won't have a Heroic Admin and Diplo hero to help with the other two.
I realize that. Note I pointed out the vote won't change its about weaseling in Grand Sacrifice as Trails is catching up to it.
Note once I called that out people suddenly called for a last minute vote reset instead.
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
Meh, bigger pull-ins have bigger potential for tech absorption, too. We'd be taking people from literally everyone we know.
That's literally the idea. The last time we absorbed a fair number of people we got a value evolution and pottery glaze. The plan is to pick up as much as we can at once, because for once, we can afford it.
- Location
- Austria
Wait, you don't see anything wrong with the proposal to create a new province to solve our problems with interprovincial politicking?
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
Who ever said that but you just now?
We will also be absorbing the TS and the DP.
HK cannot afford to declare war at this point because they are already having issue with one of the province trying to break away, and they may be forced to abandon their Law megaproject.
Massive immigration will also increase the likelihood of the ETH in conquering or ravaging the rest of the lowland.
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- Location
- Hell
You require [X]
Your votes aren't counted by the tally otherwise.
You are missing an [
I'd be a lot less circumspect about not taking Grand Sacrifice if people at least paid lip service to returning it to Stability 2.
If we don't do trails now, I can clearly see the thread pushing to do them next turn. I don't see any sort of push for Stability happening.
That said
[X] Omegahugger
I do, I forced you to do one in PoM Quest.
>:3
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We get Policy:Infrastucture 1-2 turns out as a free switch. This way we also have the econ to pay for our rush builds, since they cost extra due to our legacy. We won't complete the Aqueduct this coming turn, but the turn after we'll still have a massive econ buffer which we can spend on the econ-expensive Extended Projects and we'll be in a great position to do so.
We spend half of it, it's recovered in 1 turn unless we get horribly unlucky. We make a "True City", it likely fixes the corruption issues (Restore Order with heroic admin), we get tech advancement, maybe even evolve Cosmopolitan Acceptance even further. The alternative is we have to spend half her life building up the econ we need to do the things we want since we lost the Baby Boom.
If we also made sure the new province benefited directly from Ymaryn civilization in critical ways, a new province could act as a counterweight to the northern provinces.
So, in and of itself, I'm not going to call a New Province action foolish. (Now, if it was explicitly Black River rather than the Eastern Hills...)
But it's certainly not a solution to the growing division.
That's way too late.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
It also rises our unhealthy population drastically and directly drop our ratio of cow pox vaccinated people to dangerous level.
While playing with population overcrowding during disease season, do you realize the amount of death this causes?
These migrants are coming from areas worst hit by disease and starvation, they are sick scared people. That much instability during an artisan king? Terrible context for already shaken confidence.
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You're not gonna be finishing it in a single turn either way. Extended projects take more than 1 [Main] actions to complete. That means that unless you switch policies immediately and it takes the minimum possible amount you can't finish it next turn, and if you do that you're liable to be running critically low on economy.
By doing this we get 2.5 or 3 [Main] actions for provinces (3 since if everyone works on the same thing The Law is likely to double the main since there's no possible secondaries), which is almost certainly enough to complete it the turn we switch.
Basically: you can't get it done next turn without massive losses, and this route will get it done the turn after just as well as any other plan.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
Positive stability is not shaken confidence.