Dragon Ball: After the End

DarknessSmiles · Sep 29, 2017

[x] Yes. A thousand times yes. You want this woman on your side. *fangirling intensifies*

KaintukeeBob · Sep 29, 2017

Let's all remember that Communications, which all those checks were, is NOT what we use to lie.

It is what is used to ensure that your message is received by the target is an appropriate and understandable way, and to pitch your points in a way that will gain a positive reaction

So I doubt she's outright lying, and I don't think she's trying to manipulate us in a hostile manner.

At worst, she's trying to manipulate us for our own good, which is what friends do!

Deathbybunnies · Sep 29, 2017

KaintukeeBob said:
Let's all remember that Communications, which all those checks were, is NOT what we use to lie.

It is what is used to ensure that your message is received by the target is an appropriate and understandable way, and to pitch your points in a way that will gain a positive reaction

So I doubt she's outright lying, and I don't think she's trying to manipulate us in a hostile manner.

At worst, she's trying to manipulate us for our own good, which is what friends do!

Lies of omission also fall under Communications, though I take your point.

RideTheWalrus · Sep 29, 2017

KaintukeeBob said:
So I doubt she's outright lying, and I don't think she's trying to manipulate us in a hostile manner

Though if she is is there anything that could be done? Our little protagonist is severely underewuipes for this fight, it's a bit of a stomp

The Fourth Monado · Sep 29, 2017

[X] Agree, on the condition she doesn't bring up Dandeer or the Sealing again - we really can't talk about them.
-[X] Bear in mind though that given how great Papata is at her job, she's still likely to try and trip us up a bit - she's a Saiyan with a challenge facing her.
[X] If she brings up Jaron's PL again, just admit that Magic isn't an area of study for us - we are entirely unqualified to discuss how the Seal is supposed to work.

Khona Moshr · Sep 29, 2017

[X] Yes. A thousand times yes. You want this woman on your side. *fangirling intensifies*

Last quest I saw where people voted no on agreeing with someone because of a failed check ended badly so let's not get too paranoid.

wingstrike96 · Sep 29, 2017

[X] Agree, on the condition she doesn't bring up Dandeer or the Sealing again - we really can't talk about them.
-[X] Bear in mind though that given how great Papata is at her job, she's still likely to try and trip us up a bit - she's a Saiyan with a challenge facing her.
[X] If she brings up Jaron's PL again, just admit that Magic isn't an area of study for us - we are entirely unqualified to discuss how the Seal is supposed to work.

PoptartProdigy · Sep 29, 2017

Deathbybunnies said:
One alternative explanation as to why Papata's being so nice to us is that super-exploding Communications roll she got at the end of the previous update:

It absolutely has to be her Elite Talent cropping up - 237 is impossible otherwise. From the text, it's almost certainly her realising that the Sealing didn't go down as officially stated, and that we aren't happy about it. Given Dandeer's shift in opinion about us, it might look like from the outside that we've had a change of heart regarding the Sealing and Jaffur's predicament - shortly after Jaron's mysterious power-up. She might be being friendly because she thinks we're actually Jaffur's best chance of freedom at the moment, and she doesn't want to press us because we must have a reason for not talking about it - the last thing she wants to do is screw up whatever plan we have in motion.

This is of course entirely speculation - but a 237 on such an important roll is pretty nuts. @PoptartProdigy am I right? Or if you're not willing to give that much away, is this within the realms of what a 237 on an important roll could do? Am I overestimating it? Underestimating it? And finally, if that really was as big a roll for her to succeed on as I suspect, is this how an NPC unlocks a Legendary skill, or does the Elite Talent's explosion prevent it from qualifying for the "roll really well on something really important" requirement?

This was not a rank-up moment, but it was her realizing that there's more to the story and that you probably weren't quite as on board with the Sealing as the story claims -- as, of course, she said. Beyond that...no comment.

Parthu · Sep 29, 2017

Andres110 said:
We failed every roll in that update. Every single one. She is baiting us.

that was obvious without looking at Invisitext.

anailater · Sep 29, 2017

[x] Yes. A thousand times yes. You want this woman on your side. *fangirling intensifies*

Terrabrand · Sep 29, 2017

Deathbybunnies said:
See, to me that's basically holding up a great big flag saying "there's something here if you do a little digging" - it's not a subject we can really refuse to answer without raising way more questions than we're comfortable with. I'd rather just accept the deal as-is than draw attention to the fact we know something about Jaron. You're right that Dandeer and the Sealing are redundant though.

[X] Yes. A thousand times yes. You want this woman on your side. *fangirling intensifies*
-[X] Bear in mind though that given how great Papata is at her job, she's still likely to try and trip us up a bit - she's a Saiyan with a challenge facing her.
[X] If she brings up Jaron's PL again, just admit that Magic isn't an area of study for us - we are entirely unqualified to discuss how the Seal is supposed to work.

The Fourth Monado said:
[X] Agree, on the condition she doesn't bring up Dandeer or the Sealing again - we really can't talk about them.
-[X] Bear in mind though that given how great Papata is at her job, she's still likely to try and trip us up a bit - she's a Saiyan with a challenge facing her.
[X] If she brings up Jaron's PL again, just admit that Magic isn't an area of study for us - we are entirely unqualified to discuss how the Seal is supposed to work.

wingstrike96 said:
[X] Agree, on the condition she doesn't bring up Dandeer or the Sealing again - we really can't talk about them.
-[X] Bear in mind though that given how great Papata is at her job, she's still likely to try and trip us up a bit - she's a Saiyan with a challenge facing her.
[X] If she brings up Jaron's PL again, just admit that Magic isn't an area of study for us - we are entirely unqualified to discuss how the Seal is supposed to work.

I imagine this really ought to be rendered as two subvotes to the main, since it really seems to be meant to all be one vote...

KaintukeeBob · Sep 29, 2017

[X] Agree, on the condition she doesn'tbring up Dandeer or the Sealing again - we really can't talk about them.
-[X] Bear in mind though that given how great Papata is at her job, she's still likely to try and trip us up a bit - she's a Saiyanwith a challenge facing her.
-[X] If she brings up Jaron's PL again, just admit that Magic isn't an area of study for us - we are entirely unqualified todiscuss how the Seal is supposed towork.

Bakkasama · Sep 29, 2017

Or... she could be playing nice and do as she is saying to earn our trust for future interviews.

Parthu said:
that was obvious without looking at Invisitext.

To be fair, it is not like what she did this update was all that dangerous:

PoptartProdigy said:
She crumbles the remnants of the electronics off to the side. "Of course. I mean, either of us could still have one on under our shirts, but that..." She shrugs. "Eventually you just have to trust somebody, you know?"

You nod eagerly, paying close attention.

She props her chin up on her hand. "Off the record, Scion, what are you trying to get at today?"
Communication [Fren vs. Kakara]: 178 vs. 132.
You shrug without thinking. "I...don't really have any one thing in mind." You blush, a little embarrassed to admit that to her. "I mean, you invited me and I came, but it's the first time I've been up in front of everybody, and, well...there's a lot I need to talk about. I was ready for a lot of things, but I didn't have any one thing."

She nods and adopts a more clinical, lecturing tone. "That's a purpose. You're here to make an impression. You've appeared to the Cult, you've appeared to individuals. Now you're appearing to our people. You need to have a message in mind. An image. Which I saw that you did."

"Yeah!" you say, nodding as you listen. "I was trying to be a little casual about it. I want to look like I'm taking it seriously, but I didn't want to act all stiff and formal."

"It would have been out of place for the setting I gave you," she says, extending her fingers to cover her mouth.

The gesture cuts off a lot of your ability to read her expression, and you feel a little anxious. "Did...did I do it right?"

"I'd say so, yes," she says, a chuckle in her tone.

Fen: So, let's work together here. What did you hope to achieve? I might help. *The power of diplomancy compells you! Tell me your secrets!*
Kakara: *Compelled to the TRUTH!* I was winging it!
Fen: ... really? No ulterior motive?
Kakara: I just felt like giving an interview... I suppose I wanted to be look aproachable.

PoptartProdigy said:
You duck your head, crestfallen. "...you're laughing at me."

"No, no!" she says, although she does laugh. Her hand comes away, revealing a bright grin. "Well, yes, laughing, but not at you."

"What at?" you ask, folding your arms.
Communication [Fren vs. Kakara]: 152 vs. 79.
"...you're adorable," she says, still grinning.

Your eyes widen, and you turn crimson. "Eep?" Your eyes widen further, and you slap your hands over your mouth, wishing that you could sink into the floor. Kais on high, this is how Maya feels all the time why meeeeeeeee?

Fren laughs again in spite of herself. "You are! You're twelve years old, but you're doing so well. It's impressive, and amazing to see, and it is adorable. I'm Vegetan, Scion. My nobility is formal and distant and never speaks to a journalist without using the social protocols. You are a cute little girl who leaks earnestness like a sieve." She curls up in her chair, giving you a wide smile.

You hide your face in your hands. "Thank you," you say, grinning wildly at the praise even as bashfulness strangles the words to squeaks. "I. Um. Thanks. That means a lot."

Fen: *I just saw something about the Scion most people don't*
Kakara: What are you laughing at?
Fen: *Ah, she is getting angry. That won't do. Deploy distraction!* Nothing dear, you are very pretty.
Kakara: Te-hee, Sempai just praised me~ *Kyaaa! My heart is not ready!*

PoptartProdigy said:
You get a bit of control over yourself and give her a guarded look. "I mean...it depends on your questions..."

"I'm not going to press you if you tell me you can't talk about it," she says. "I do want to ask again, though: you really can't talk about what caused you to withdraw from public recently?"
Communication [Fren vs. Kakara]: 112 vs. 91.
You relent a bit, shrugging. "I can't, but Dad's making an announcement really soon. It's short-notice, so I don't think he's sent invitations yet, but I'm pretty sure you'll be there."

"That's good enough for me," she says. "Other than that, I really did want to dig in to your Masqued life. A lot of people aren't the happiest about it, but I can see that there are so many fascinating stories there! Especially with your friend Jaron," she says. "I know that what you've said already is how you plan to move on, but do you think we could get some stories on that when we're back out there and chatting again? After that, I wanted to move on to talking about your appearance at the Ancestral Council. It was your first public appearance, but for anybody not a part of the Faith, it's all been secondhand. People have been dying to know. What do you say?"

Fen: So, about that seemingly super secret reason you cancelled all public appearances...
Kakara: Wait... are you trying to compliment me to lower my guard so that I would more readily answer your questions in an attempt to earn praise from a supportive adult authority figure?
Fen: *Come on Fen! This is what you have been training all your life for!* Nope. No I don't.
Kakara: Oh, ok. Not much of a secret though, dad is going to explain that next week.
Fen: Ah, nevermind then. *But, but... my roll!*

Basically, she didn't ask the truly dangerous questions... though to be fair, that is because we have so many things going on. Between asking about the sealing that she has a hunch was not as the oficial versión but doesn't know the true scope of the divergence and the reason we dropped everything and went into a panicked training binge, she is obviously going to ask about the most relevant for the moment. If the super saiyans seem to be panicking, that is news worthy.

Besides, I doubt she would press us more about the sealing this interview. Fen is a Smart gal, and knows that while we are the Scion and thus people expect more of us, we are also 12 and were 8 at the time of the sealing. She is not going to want to look like someone who would bully a child in a live interview to get a confession, especially one who is popular for inventing Golden oozaru, is loved by the religión 1/5th of the saiyans follow and had a surge of popularity from taking down the leader of the scouts along with Jaffur. She will want to aproach this carefully not only because of how volatile is the situation but because while we seem like a nice girl we are still a super saiyan and dad is also in the hall.

Diceart · Sep 29, 2017

[X] Yes. A thousand times yes. You want this woman on your side. *fangirling intensifies*

Simon_Jester · Sep 29, 2017

Andres110 said:
[snip]

What that tells me is that she has the capacity to be a shark. It does not tell me whether she has the inclination. Assuming her hostility by default isn't necessarily a good plan.

Deathbybunnies said:
It absolutely has to be her Elite Talent cropping up - 237 is impossible otherwise.

It certainly is in context. It's conceivable there could be a character whose bonuses stack up to +137 or higher... but if Papata's bonuses did, all her other rolls would be in the range of, oh, the mid-100s up into the 200s. Instead, this role is uniquely higher than anything else. So yeah, exploding dice triggered there.

From the text, it's almost certainly her realising that the Sealing didn't go down as officially stated, and that we aren't happy about it. Given Dandeer's shift in opinion about us, it might look like from the outside that we've had a change of heart regarding the Sealing and Jaffur's predicament - shortly after Jaron's mysterious power-up. She might be being friendly because she thinks we're actually Jaffur's best chance of freedom at the moment, and she doesn't want to press us because we must have a reason for not talking about it - the last thing she wants to do is screw up whatever plan we have in motion.

I actually think this theory has a fairly high probability of being true. An elite journalist who has been openly anti-Sealing on air ever since Year One or Two... Yeah, she's probably not just out for the juicy gossip.

This is of course entirely speculation - but a 237 on such an important roll is pretty nuts. @PoptartProdigy am I right? Or if you're not willing to give that much away, is this within the realms of what a 237 on an important roll could do? Am I overestimating it? Underestimating it? And finally, if that really was as big a roll for her to succeed on as I suspect, is this how an NPC unlocks a Legendary skill, or does the Elite Talent's explosion prevent it from qualifying for the "roll really well on something really important" requirement?

For an Elite investigative journalist, critting and deducing (in broad outline) that Kakara is likely involved in a conspiracy to free Jaffur might well be that kind of feat. Maybe, I guess?

I'm no toaster pastry, but I'm pretty sure it would depend on exactly how good a 237 is for Papata. If her bonus is, say, +40, then that represents her critting the base roll AND the exploding die roll, and maybe that would unlock Legendary? On the other hand, if her bonuses add up to like +90, it's entirely possible that she rolled a 75 on the first die and a 72 on the second, which is pretty unremarkable.

LucidityWaver · Sep 30, 2017

Simon_Jester said:
I'm no toaster pastry, but I'm pretty sure it would depend on exactly how good a 237 is for Papata. If her bonus is, say, +40, then that represents her critting the base roll AND the exploding die roll, and maybe that would unlock Legendary? On the other hand, if her bonuses add up to like +90, it's entirely possible that she rolled a 75 on the first die and a 72 on the second, which is pretty unremarkable.

You may have missed that the dice can continue to explode. Relevant part in bold:

PoptartProdigy said:
Papata Fren's Elite Talent is that when pressing somebody for details they have implied but neglected to say outright, she gets exploding dice. Any time she rolls a 70 or higher (before bonuses), she rolls again and adds that to the results, with additional 70s continuing to explode. This doesn't force somebody to speak who -- like Kakara -- has resolved in advance not to say anything, but successes trip them up and snarl them, caught off-guard by the sudden conversational aggression and thereby revealing more than they intended.

It's such a broken talent. I mean, a 30% chance to explode? With her bonuses also likely above ours by a nice margin (elite bonus + setting topics + any other perks she may have), it's not surprising that we haven't succeeded against Fren's rolls ~~even once~~ much. Edit: Ah, I mis-remembered. We did succeed for most of the interview, just not in the last update.

veekie · Sep 30, 2017

[X] Agree, on the condition she doesn't bring up Dandeer or the Sealing again - we really can't talk about them.
-[X] Bear in mind though that given how great Papata is at her job, she's still likely to try and trip us up a bit - she's a Saiyan with a challenge facing her.
[X] If she brings up Jaron's PL again, just admit that Magic isn't an area of study for us - we are entirely unqualified to discuss how the Seal is supposed to work.

Terrabrand · Sep 30, 2017

LucidityWaver said:
It's such a broken talent. I mean, a 30% chance to explode?

The actually alarming part to me is the chance of retriggering- 9% of the time it explodes at least twice, and 2.7% at least three times. Those are big numbers, at that point.

LucidityWaver · Sep 30, 2017

Terrabrand said:
The actually alarming part to me is the chance of retriggering- 9% of the time it explodes at least twice, and 2.7% at least three times. Those are big numbers, at that point.

Yeah, exactly. I planned to mention that but wasn't sure I had the math right.
Even just one explosion is hard to beat something like a 21% chance the roll is 100+ before bonuses.

Edit: Do we have examples of any other elite talents besides our potential for machine sensing? Machine sense seems a bit irrelevant for most things in a db setting.
Good for Androids, maybe, and the kind of situation we developed the talent from.

Ridiculously Average Guy · Sep 30, 2017

Carrnage said:
Question, does anyone have a crush on maya that's she's completely oblivious to? because i am beginning to suspect it's crushes all the way down.

Jaron, IIRC, part of Jaffur's attraction to power bleeding through.

RideTheWalrus · Sep 30, 2017

LucidityWaver said:
It's such a broken talent. I mean, a 30% chance to explode? With her bonuses also likely above ours by a nice margin (elite bonus + setting topics + any other perks she may have), it's not surprising that we haven't succeeded against Fren's rolls ~~even once~~ much. Edit: Ah, I mis-remembered. We did succeed for most of the interview, just not in the last update.

With all her advantages I'm not confident a plan can save Kakara from looking completely owned in this interview. Fren is too good at her job for Kakara to come out looking impressive or worthy of her title. Maybe her age will help people be more lenient in their opinion of Kakara. Poor girl is out of her league here

Simon_Jester · Sep 30, 2017

Why are you assuming Fren's job entails making Kakara look bad?

This isn't a zero-sum game. Fren can look great in an interview that makes Kakara look good too.

Besides, humiliating Kakara is hardly in Fren's long term interests in any case.

RideTheWalrus · Sep 30, 2017

Simon_Jester said:
Why are you assuming Fren's job entails making Kakara look bad?

This isn't a zero-sum game. Fren can look great in an interview that makes Kakara look good too.

Besides, humiliating Kakara is hardly in Fren's long term interests in any case.

All good points. Though I note you also make the assumption that she can only be good. Yep I'm a bit defensive here. Its usually good for things to have conflict and Fren here has a very strong control over how things go which may not be good for Kakara. Mostly it's just an emotional response to seeing Kakara getting owned. Is that so wrong?

Aranfan · Sep 30, 2017

PoptartProdigy said:
I'm sure you remembered what happened when Cynthia Balor did that, and Cynthia has no obvious qualifications as an expert in the art of being a pacifist the way Papata is so obviously skilled at the art of talking with people.

If anything, Cynthia is anti-qualified at being a pacifist.

[x] Yes. A thousand times yes. You want this woman on your side. *fangirling intensifies*

Simon_Jester · Sep 30, 2017

RideTheWalrus said:
All good points. Though I note you also make the assumption that she can only be good.

NO THAT IS NOT TRUE I AM DOING NO SUCH THING.

Disagreeing with you and claiming the exact opposite of what you are claiming are not the same thing.

Your words are "With all her advantages I'm not confident a plan can save Kakara from looking completely owned in this interview. Fren is too good at her job for Kakara to come out looking impressive or worthy of her title."

These words make sense only in the context of "Papata wants to hurt us, now she can. Papata intends to make us look unimpressive and unworthy, and she won some die rolls, so that will happen now." Now, maybe in your mind it is NOT certain that if Kakara loses the die rolls, she will come out looking unimpressive and unworthy, and that Papata will "own" and embarrass her. But if that is in your mind, your words do not show a sign of it.

Your words make sense in the context of certainty of Papata's hostility. They do not make sense in the context of uncertainty about Papata's intentions.

My own words are trying to point out that Papata has long term interests that would not be served by embarrassing us, and may in fact not WANT to embarrass us. She may genuinely not desire to do that. We have no evidence that she is usually a "shock jock" or other media personality that specifically thrives on humiliating powerful people on the air, and within about the next 10-15 years, Kakara is going to become one of the two most powerful people in her society.

My words make sense in the context of uncertainty. They do not require the assumption that Papata's intentions "can only be good."

Yep I'm a bit defensive here. Its usually good for things to have conflict and Fren here has a very strong control over how things go which may not be good for Kakara. Mostly it's just an emotional response to seeing Kakara getting owned. Is that so wrong?

And I'm trying to persuade you that Kakara losing a few die rolls isn't an automatic 100% guarantee of humiliation and disaster. Is that so wrong?

Dragon Ball: After the End

S U B A R A S H I I

Pink Flamingo Cabal Healer(they/them)

Lawful Evil

the Ordainer

There is always a greater fool

the Ordainer

I'm you, but stronger

Team Plasma Grunt