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Dragon Ball: After the End

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[X] Lailoken

Fuck it have my vote. I'm way too busy helping thread the needle to avoid disaster over in Rise to even attempt to follow this.
 
I don't believe we have anything solid enough to convince Berra with yet. A targeted Past Seeing first.

We don't want to rush the process out of outrage and fuck everything up even worse.

So actions:
Now:
-Group Hug
-Demand explanations
-Explain the conspiracy to Jaffur and Jaron so they know we're working on it and to trust us unconsciously.

Mid term:
-Past-scry for the event where Jaffur's memory was wiped
-Consult with the Conspiracy regarding actionable information and how solid the information is when exposed.

Long term
-Blow this shit wide open.

Remember Jaffur RIGHT HERE just said he'd kill his mother. It'd only affirm Berra's beliefs at present.
 
[X] UNLIMITED HUG WORKS!
[X] ...Jaffur? Explain?
[X] Chat(Regarding the conspiracy working to free him, give as much detail as you can so they know who to trust, get anything they know that might help.)

Anyway here we go. Less rashness. No grand speeches. Give them the group hug, get answers and prepare them.

Yes, every day is some kind of torture. We already know that.
Yes, Dandeer is probably going to die. We already know that.

We have all the clues to get ROCK SOLID evidence, not just hearsay, "what Jaffur believes", or "what Kakara believes". We work it through with the conspiracy to present a case Berra cannot rationalize or explain away.

Then we slam dunk it.
 
Now I'm curious as to what Jaffur's told Jaron about us. Can't actually see any reason why he wouldn't tell him, considering Jaron 'forgets' it upon waking.
 
[X] ...Jaffur? Explain?
[X] Hug Jaffur. You've hit him with a lot.
[X] Hug Jaron. Maybe it'll help him cool down and have a not-terrible night.
 
@Lailoken Jaffur's permission would not mean anything. Dandeer is regent under the Lord's authority and Lord beats Scion. Not to mention that the justification for the sealing is that Jaffur is unstable so either a) he is not right in the head and shouldn't be listened to or b) he is sane now and the sealing worked as medicine (in their eyes). Not to mention that the Gokun Scion killing the Vegetan regent, who presumably acts under the Vegetan Lord's orders, on the basis of a Vegetan issue and without the Goku Lord's conscent sets a terrible precedent.

It is not as easy as killing Dandeer and then revealing the truth of the sealing. If it were, Yammar would have done it already as the Vegetan elder since it is his job to deal with shit like this. The fact that both Yammar and Apra, who know more of the political situation and know our father more than us advocate for the slow aproach should be telling.
 
Bakkasama said:
@Lailoken Jaffur's permission would not mean anything. Dandeer is regent under the Lord's authority and Lord beats Scion.
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We have very good reasons to think that there are protocols and rules along the lines of "if the Scion is being imprisoned or coerced by their own regent, and the Lord is similarly imprisoned somehow, the Regent's authority is invalid." That's kind of the point here.

Whether or not official permission actually lets you do something depends on what other people agree it lets you do. When your message is "the Regent's claims about how humane the Seal is, and how necessary it is, are both false! I have verifiable records of the Scion telling me that he is being improperly detained and tortured!" ...

Well, suffice to say that the gain in popular legitimacy your position gets? That gain is pretty significant, especially when matched up against the losses involved in saying "the Regent can imprison and torture the Lord and Scion whenever they want, because they're acting with the Lord's authority."

Not to mention that the Gokun Scion killing the Vegetan regent, who presumably acts under the Vegetan Lord's orders, on the basis of a Vegetan issue and without the Goku Lord's conscent sets a terrible precedent.

It is not as easy as killing Dandeer and then revealing the truth of the sealing. If it were, Yammar would have done it already as the Vegetan elder since it is his job to deal with shit like this.
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The reasons Yammar hasn't already done so are simple. One, by himself he has no way of reversing the Sealing, so his grandson would be locked away forever. He has to work with a team, and he has every motivation to move slowly and lay groundwork so that the Vegetans don't tumble into chaos when his plans go into motion.

Two, because he can't reveal a truth he doesn't know. We're learning a lot about the situation right now that neither we nor any other conspirator knew.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
We have very good reasons to think that there are protocols and rules along the lines of "if the Scion is being imprisoned or coerced by their own regent, and the Lord is similarly imprisoned somehow, the Regent's authority is invalid." That's kind of the point here.

Whether or not official permission actually lets you do something depends on what other people agree it lets you do. When your message is "the Regent's claims about how humane the Seal is, and how necessary it is, are both false! I have verifiable records of the Scion telling me that he is being improperly detained and tortured!" ...

Well, suffice to say that the gain in popular legitimacy your position gets? That gain is pretty significant, especially when matched up against the losses involved in saying "the Regent can imprison and torture the Lord and Scion whenever they want, because they're acting with the Lord's authority."

The reasons Yammar hasn't already done so are simple. One, by himself he has no way of reversing the Sealing, so his grandson would be locked away forever. He has to work with a team, and he has every motivation to move slowly and lay groundwork so that the Vegetans don't tumble into chaos when his plans go into motion.

Two, because he can't reveal a truth he doesn't know. We're learning a lot about the situation right now that neither we nor any other conspirator knew.
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The problem is that the lord is not similarly imprisoned and the regent authority comes from him AND the Regent had no intention of having the Scion be imprisoned that way and all points that she would have moved to correct the situation were she aware, something that could have happened years ago had we told her but we witheld the information. My point is that, if they are acting under the premise that the Seal is medicinal, the permission of a supposedly unstable patient to kill his minder because they are not doing their job properly, when said patient not taking the medication is tge root of the crimes we are acusing her of and we knew said patient was not taking his medication, knew for years and we didn't inform their minder, who would have immediately given the 'proper treatment' to the patient,might be a little shady or lacking legitimacy. Unless we said this was how the seal was supposed to work, THAT justification in particular puts US in the wrong.

Not to mention that the current revelation is irrelevant. We knew what Jaffur was going through and Jaron isnot as important to the saiyans in comparison.
 
[X] UNLIMITED HUG WORKS!
[X] ...Jaffur? Explain?
[X] Chat(Regarding the conspiracy working to free him, give as much detail as you can so they know who to trust, get anything they know that might help.)
 
[X] UNLIMITED HUG WORKS!
[X] ...Jaffur? Explain?
[X] Chat(Regarding the conspiracy working to free him, give as much detail as you can so they know who to trust,get anything they know that might help.)
 
Bakkasama said:
The problem is that the lord is not similarly imprisoned and the regent authority comes from him AND the Regent had no intention of having the Scion be imprisoned that way and all points that she would have moved to correct the situation were she aware, something that could have happened years ago had we told her but we witheld the information. My point is that, if they are acting under the premise that the Seal is medicinal, the permission of a supposedly unstable patient to kill his minder because they are not doing their job properly, when said patient not taking the medication is tge root of the crimes we are acusing her of and we knew said patient was not taking his medication, knew for years and we didn't inform their minder, who would have immediately given the 'proper treatment' to the patient,might be a little shady or lacking legitimacy. Unless we said this was how the seal was supposed to work, THAT justification in particular puts US in the wrong.

Not to mention that the current revelation is irrelevant. We knew what Jaffur was going through and Jaron isnot as important to the saiyans in comparison.
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The Vegetans are already basically in open revolt- the Senzu outright, because the fundamental legitimacy of this unpredicted arrangement is far from clear. The primary reasons anyone goes along with it at all are an inability to reverse it and the threat of Berra stepping in. Neither of the former lords have Kakara's current, indisputable evidence, the explicit and indisputable permission of the current head of the Vegetans as seen by anyone who doesn't buy the rule-by-metaphor arrangement's legitimacy, and the position and relationship with Berra all at the same time.

Seriously, if nothing else we lose nothing by getting this permission. Remember that it also helps Kakara's legitimacy in not killing Dandeer because if it ever comes out later that she spared her she has a formal Vegetan writ granting her unilateral authority to resolve the Dandeer issue however she judges best- technically including faking her death and not mentioning that fact to Jaffur and Jaron.
 
[X] ...Jaffur? Explain?
[X] UNLIMITED HUG WORKS!
[X] Chat(Regarding the conspiracy working to free him, give as much detail as you can so they know who to trust, get anything they know that might help.)
Putting the explain choice before hug works. Might give Jaron a chance to blow off a bit more steam.
 
Lailoken said:
The Vegetans are already basically in open revolt- the Senzu outright, because the fundamental legitimacy of this unpredicted arrangement is far from clear. The primary reasons anyone goes along with it at all are an inability to reverse it and the threat of Berra stepping in. Neither of the former lords have Kakara's current, indisputable evidence, the explicit and indisputable permission of the current head of the Vegetans as seen by anyone who doesn't buy the rule-by-metaphor arrangement's legitimacy, and the position and relationship with Berra all at the same time.

Seriously, if nothing else we lose nothing by getting this permission. Remember that it also helps Kakara's legitimacy in not killing Dandeer because if it ever comes out later that she spared her she has a formal Vegetan writ granting her unilateral authority to resolve the Dandeer issue however she judges best- technically including faking her death and not mentioning that fact to Jaffur and Jaron.
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We already had the evidence, this doesn't tells us anything new in regards to Jaffur's situation; the former Lords already have such evidence (in that we told them and who acts on it doesn't change the validity of our testimony), Jaffur is not the current head of the Vegetans (there is a precedent in Oni's daughter as to the authority of regents over scions in case there is no Lord and both Berra and Yammar gave legitimacy to Dandeer's regency, one explicitly and the other by inaction when it is his job to intervene in these situations), this is under Yammar's job instead of ours (who, under the same knowledge we have and knowing more of Vegetan politics adviced we wait), it doesn't answer any concern about Jaffur's instability and, even if Jaffur had the authority, he already said Dandeer would die so there is no point in asking him again. Even if it was valid, I would still advocate to dump responsability on Yammar to minimize the fallout of Gokun nobility executing Vegetan leadership.

So no, this doesn't actually change things in regards to the conspiracy other than calm worries about how fucked up would Jaron be over his mother's fate.
 
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[X] UNLIMITED HUG WORKS!
[X] ...Jaffur? Explain?
[X] Chat(Regarding the conspiracy working to free him, give as much detail as you can so they know who to trust,get anything they know that might help.)
 
[X] UNLIMITED HUG WORKS!
[X] ...Jaffur? Explain?
[X] Chat(tell Jaron we are going to fix this. Explain conspiracy)
[X] Try to talk to Jaron to cool him down. Jaffur could probably use a break from it, and the shock of seeing you might snap Jaron out
 
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[X] Hug Jaron. Maybe it'll help him cool down and have a not-terrible night.
[X] Try to talk to Jaron to cool him down. Jaffur could probably use a break from it, and the shock of seeing you might snap Jaron out
[X] ...Jaffur? Explain?
[X] Chat(Regarding the conspiracy working to free him, give as much detail as you can so they know who to trust, get anything they know that might help.)

We can still vote for multiple things right.
 
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[X] Hug Jaron. Maybe it'll help him cool down and have a not-terrible night.
[X] Try to talk to Jaron to cool him down. Jaffur could probably use a break from it, and the shock of seeing you might snap Jaron out
 
Bakkasama said:
We already had the evidence, this doesn't tells us anything new in regards to Jaffur's situation; the former Lords already have such evidence (in that we told them and who acts on it doesn't change the validity of our testimony), Jaffur is not the current head of the Vegetans (there is a precedent in Oni's daughter as to the authority of regents over scions in case there is no Lord and both Berra and Yammar gave legitimacy to Dandeer's regency, one explicitly and the other by inaction when it is his job to intervene in these situations), this is under Yammar's job instead of ours (who, under the same knowledge we have and knowing more of Vegetan politics adviced we wait), it doesn't answer any concern about Jaffur's instability and, even if Jaffur had the authority, he already said Dandeer would die so there is no point in asking him again. Even if it was valid, I would still advocate to dump responsability on Yammar to minimize the fallout of Gokun nobility executing Vegetan leadership.

So no, this doesn't actually change things in regards to the conspiracy other than calm worries about how fucked up would Jaron be over his mother's fate.
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Jaffur and Jaron are the aggrieved and effective heads of the nuclear family if nothing else. Jaffur has personal clout. Their explicit authorization will count emotionally even among those who have differing views on the legal technicalities of Scion authority in extremis. Half the reason the Vegetans are upset is that they are being denied what they see as a prodigal Scion. When they find out that he's not only the best fighter ever, but the best chance the Exiles have ever had to reach SSJ2 and thus open up ordinary SSJ for everyone? When no other Vegetan authority is disagreeing with him or are even retroactively sanctioning his decision? That will sway hearts and minds. Yammar would take a major hit and lose a lot of legitimacy if he did the same thing, but Jaffur can afford to make that declaration and then "oops" out of the precedent being binding later due to the extreme and incredibly sympathetic circumstances of the young, tortured child while still giving Kakara the cover she needs to save Dandeer's life.

More than that, Yammar isn't going to grant Kakara permission to fake Dandeer's death, and the thread is going to insist on trying to save her. Think ahead. We're going to be faced with a decision which, without preparation, will directly and unambiguously result in Dandeer's death, and a lot of the players will balk. That hesitation at the crucial moment could easily throw the entire plan into worst-case scenario. We need the cover and a free hand to defy our co-conspirators.

If you need another reason, it will immediately build relationship with both Jaron and Jaffur. It shows them tremendous respect for their desires and authority. It shows how seriously Kakara takes this matter. It's likely to get them something they want. What more clearly signals somebody's sincerity and respect than asking permission to outright kill in pursuit of shared goals because it really might be necessary and the kind pacifist really is willing to do anything it takes to free them? It's certainly something I would appreciate the hell out of in their shoes.
 
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[X] Hug Jaffur. You've hit him with a lot.
[X] Hug Jaron. Maybe it'll help him cool down and have a not-terrible night.
 
Hey, folks, I'm reading through the discussion, and I wanted to clarify something: you all do remember that Dandeer wiping Jaron's memories of the night before the Sealing is not a secret, right?
Dandeer said:
"When I told him what I had done...he flew into a rage and did this to me. It was all I could do to wipe his memory of the last hour and guide him back to bed before I passed out."
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That's why I dropped it in there so casually; Kakara already knows that Jaffur won't remember anything there (which is why I found it a bit odd that you all chose to ask about that, but I suppose you did get Jaffur to confirm that it sounded out of character for him). Him having no memories of that span of time is not suspicious.

Reading the comments, I'm not certain if people remember that or not; some make me think you all do, others make me think that you've forgotten.
 
Lailoken said:
Jaffur and Jaron are the aggrieved and effective heads of the nuclear family if nothing else. Jaffur has personal clout. Their explicit authorization will count emotionally even among those who have differing views on the legal technicalities of Scion authority in extremis. Half the reason the Vegetans are upset is that they are being denied what they see as a prodigal Scion. When they find out that he's not only the best fighter ever, but the best chance the Exiles have ever had to reach SSJ2 and thus open up ordinary SSJ for everyone? When no other Vegetan authority is disagreeing with him or even are retroactively sanctioning his decision? That will say hearts and minds. Yammar would take a major hit and lose a lot of legitimacy if he did the same thing, but Jaffur can afford to make that declaration and then "oops" out of the three precedent being binding later due to the extreme and incredibly sympathetic circumstances of the young, tortured child while still giving Kakara the cover she needs to save Dandeer's life.
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Ok, I followed up to the bolded part but where the heck is that ss2 business coming from? I don't recall it being discussed on the thread, Jaffur made no mention of wanting it and nobody made mention of it among the conspiracy. The saiyans don't want anyone becoming SS2 either because of the cultural indoctrination of it being likely to attract the enemy. They are more likely to revolt and kill Jaffur if anyone tries it or mention it.

Closest I can think of it is Jaffur training endurance for Golden oozaru, which he can do because he can train all he wants while sealed.

Lailoken said:
More than that, Yammar isn't going to grant Kakara permission to fake Dandeer's death, and the thread is going to insist on trying to save her. Think ahead. We're going to be faced with a decision which, without preparation, will result in Dandeer's death, and a lot of the players will balk. That hesitation at the crucial moment could easily throw the entire plan into worst-case scenario. We need the cover and a free hand to defy our co-conspirators.
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Who want to fake her death? She wants her family and can't do that if she is faking her death. It s either convincing her sons not to kill her, imprison her or let them kill her. You are needlessly complicating things for a plan that was not discussed afaik.

Lailoken said:
If you need another reason, it will immediately build relationship with both Jaron and Jaffur. It shows them tremendous respect for their desires and authority. It shows how seriously Kakara takes this matter. It's likely to get them something they want. What more clearly signals somebody's sincerity and respect than asking permission to outright kill in pursuit of shared goals because it really might be necessary and the kind pacifist really is willing to do anything it takes to free them? It's certainly something I would appreciate the hell out of in their shoes.
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They want to kill her themselves, it is unlikely to be necessary and even if it is we would probably vote not to.

Also, I don't mean to offend but... isn't your thing usually to propose the sociopatic solutions/reasoning that people can tell is a bad idea for normal people? I don't think if something you would apreaciate is something they would apreciate. We don't know them that much so I would probably say the same of any other player, though.
 
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