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1) It helps us learn about the culture of Garenhuld.
Not slacking does that.
2) Poptart already mentioned we don't have to worry about the hiding ki aspect of the masquerade anymore, which means that we can use it to enhance the play and thus get people more comfortable with the idea. Since in MC we would be aiming to hide ki usage, that doesn't apply to it.
Ki would be far more useful for Magic trick then drama club. Can't actually think of any uses for KI in drama club. For magic even little things like being able to stick a coin on the back of your had should be useful.
3) It provides a greater chance at social since it needs us to interact with the other actors both in practice of the play as during it.
Maybe, but we can interact with as many people as we want for Magic club as well. Also magic tricks can be used as a ice breaker in the saiyan world. And frankly relationships in the Saiyan world seem more important.

4) More of a downside of the other but pretend to be a sorcerer is a bad idea. Not only it woyldn't work since saiyans can sense when sorcery is at work and it would require a lot of training at MC to even begin to imitate their effects but even if it did work, sorcerers face prejudice and it would make Dandeer nervous about us interacting with Jaron. Remember when she saw us practicing Jaffur style? Woman be paranoid. Also, Kakara is prejudiced against sorcerers so I doubt she would enjoy pretending to be one and some sorcerers might take offense at her trying to.
I thought it would be a fun prank more of a bonus really. The real advantage if that the rumors would spread for awhile then be proven false making people inclined to be sceptical about rumors about us. Useful if we want to hide anything.
5) It is at its base a group activity which means we can pull our friends to it. Since it is about practicing conversations, it might help Jaron with his confidence issues and to a lesser extent Maya. It also gives us an excuse to practice with them in case we need some alone time with Jaron... for the seal. That came out wrong.

Magic club would be an excellent excuse to teach Jaron sorcery without anyone knowing. Magic club is also a great excuse for alone time with Jaron.

Also we can teach Maya the ki tricks.

More then half of the advantages you have said for drama club apply for magic club.
 
Well that is not addressing anything I said. The reason that it seems to fit so well is because I spent a long time thinking about what would fit.

Getting very tired of people questioning my motivation instead of arguing.
It's not that you have bad motivations. It's that you're fitting a very, very common pattern I've seen dozens of times. Expecting something to work as well as you expect magic club to work, in a game that is explicitly being balanced by the QM to avoid there being some magical super-perfect solution to all our problems, doesn't sound plausible to me. The QM isn't going to let us cleverly pick an option that will work really well AND give us synergy bonuses on like five other die rolls.

...

Moreover, the magic club idea fits the list of problems you have identified in Kakara's future very well... but it doesn't necessarily fit what everyone else thinks the problems are. Why do we want to be able to impersonate a sorceress? Why is spending actions learning introductory Tinkering a higher priority than learning how to fight competently against opponents of equal power level? Both of those things are likely to become problems in the near future, and as Scion we're a lot more likely to be able to outsource our Tinkering needs to other saiyans than to outsource our fighting needs.

...


One of the upsides of spending a long time thinking in relative isolation is that you end up going off on paths nobody else would have considered trying... and discovering buried treasure.

One of the downsides of spending a long time thinking in relative isolation is that you end up going off on paths nobody else would have considered trying... and falling off a cliff.

This is starting to look more like one of those 'fell off a cliff' plans.
 
I don't consider learning to fight someone at equal power level to be a good idea at all. We have already been punished for it once and we still have not recovered. Trinkering is better because there are plenty of people better at fighting than we are.

Also by your argument we should not even try because the QM is fighting against us to make sure that our plans can't be too good. I completely disagree.

Also you are still doing it. More than half of your post is specialition about flaws in my brain instead of possible flaws in the plan.

What is wrong with the problems I have identified that my plan works for?
 
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Meta:
I really don't want to come off as holier-than-thou here, or speaking out of turn in PoptartProdigy's thread, but I feel the need to speak up here: Please, please think through what you're saying before you post it? Everyone on the other side of the screen, unless there have been massive advancements in AI that I do not know about, are people. They support the positions they do because they believe they are the best options. What you say has impact on them, and not just on them, but on everyone in the thread -- it changes the thread's dynamic to treat others so.

On which note, I'm not going to call anyone out specifically here, that's not the point of this, but I've noticed several people over the past pages treating others as if they were acting in poor faith. Even if this was the case (which, for the record, I doubt), it explicitly lowers the quality of discourse to call them out -- it changes the topic of discussion from "what do we want to do in the next update cycle, etc." to "what a bad person this is".

I know how easy it is, sometimes, to view others' positions as combative, but do your best to avoid that, and we'll all have more fun. Even if nothing else convinces you, I believe PoptartProdigy has expressed their dislike for it, and a happy QM is a productive one, right?

You're all wonderful people.
 
We all need to calm down, folks. Take a deep breath and remember Rule 3.
Anyway, lets put the argument over benefits to bed: @PoptartProdigy, can you explain what benefits and downside we/Kakara can reasonably expect with regards to a Drama Club and Magic Club?
Garenhulders appreciate storytelling to an extent that's difficult to communicate. In terms of prestige it's more applicable to IRL Model UN or Governmental Debate clubs, verging into sports-level popularity (all of this from a US perspective; in general terms it's second- or first-tier popularity). Joining a Drama club would therefore grant bonuses to social standing under Masque and, in the event of a Masquerade breach, would help make Kakara a more conventionally-acceptable face for the ki users. That said, it is commensurately more competitive and high-pressure.

Magic has different social benefits. You get lumped more firmly into the social fringe, but those connections will be more personal. Magic taps into the same drive to narrative as drama, but is viewed as a lower form of the art, lacking prestige. Drama will make you popular; magic will give you an in to a particular friend group. Pretending to be a Sorcerer is not going to happen with Magic club.
Another phrase for game-cheesing double-stacking, in character, is effective time management. :p

That said, I do understand your concerns, and have a mild preference for Drama Club, but it'll probably come down to which plans I like better as a whole more than that.

On that note, a thought:

@PoptartProdigy Could Kakara spend Two Actions to maintain grade and one action to tutor other students for a chance at improving her grades? (After all, colloquially, the best way to learn is to teach)
So it is. Tutoring would be a way to do that, but I'll need to think about various aspects of implementation.
 
On my phone so not a big argument but @fictionfan

To counter your counter arguments:

1) To learn culture you have to immerse in it. Things like common stories, themes, pop culture require more than doing better at school.

2) Ki. Has. Been. Revealed. Karen showed herself as a practitioner. If she does magic tricks people would expect her to do her weird-mumbo-jumbo but that is not the point I wanted to make. The point is using Ki in a non threatening and visual way, such as the special effects that you normally have problems with in live performances and show they should not be afraid of us. Theatre is ideal because Garenhuld has a rich tradition of it so even if we don't use ki it is a way to normalize how people see Karen since she will have a greater scrutiny in her human life. Furthermore, as one of the first public ki users, we can't be as away from the Garenhulders since they keep an eye on us. A popular choice, that makes us interact with others, that needs us to interact with others to practice in a visible way while our multiform does its own thing is perfect to keep suspicions away. Magic tricks are mostly practiced alone so if we use 2 actions to level deceit we should at least get a decent alibi and something that helps in more important issues, like making ki users look like normal people, instead of potentially helping in new projects that are not strictly necessary!

3) Practice of magic tricks has to be done in private to preserve secrecy of it and acting is by default social so it gives more chance to interact. Not to mention that recent events make interacting in the human world more pressing. Also, we don't need magic tricks to break to ice among saiyans. We are the Scion of Goku, Kakara the Gold, Princess in all but name.

4) If the saiyan could confuse sleight of hand with Sorcery, which I remind you can be felt through ki sensing and is used for greater things then I would be extremely worried about our species. They are not morons, they know what a magic trick is. They live half their life among humans.

5) Again, magic tricks=\= Sorcery. We are not a sorcerer, so how do we expect we teach him? The plan is contacting with Jaffur, make him link with Dandelor with magic and then he teaches him. Us teaching him would be suboptimal and take a lot more time since we would have to learn first with no frame of reference!

Also some of the "advantages" magic club gived are benefits to actions other might not want to take. Not only is incredibly dubious that magic club might help learn about the mysteries but what if we don't want to learn about the sorcery this turn? You say that sleight of hand might be useful but on a diplomacy build, things like improvisation and being able to lie and fake emotions would be more so. Ki tricks being more useful for magic shows? Better living through ki might be promising if it saves enough time for an action but if anything, spending time devising ki uses to apply to magic tricks is time we are not using to make our life easier! Now, I am not saying they might not help each other but the indication they might is way too thin!

Do you want more arguments in favor of drama? It helps with communication which is our main strenght. It builds our reputation in the human world which is where we are performing said actions. Fluff wise, we want to learn to lie convincingly, not distracting other while we do something else. It is something we can do with more people, not as audience but as partners. It helps growing interests with people like Genna who likes to read.

Another thing! You came up with Magic Club because, in your opinion, it synergizes with a lot of actions you want to take. Have you considered that, maybe, others don't want to do so? That we are spreading ourselves too thin? We have to learn to fight because we are one of the few legally allowed to reach our power level and if a threat comes that requires it, we will have to act! We need to learn to do so effectively because there will be timeswe can't power up higher so as to not bring attention from space! Don't get me started on the fact that Jaffur is unstable and we might have to deal with him at least long enough to use diplomacy if he ever goes to the deep end!

Or maybe we don't want to be a tinker and use our time to make new tricks with ki since that and diplomacy are the things in which Kakara is a prodigy. Or maybe we would rather use the time to FINALLY have a social life?

Look, I don't want to be mean but it sort of came out like that. Also, we areon a brown out here and my nephews are a bit too noisy/cranky because reasons so my patience is a bit thin at the moment. Plus, typing on phone and bad connection. So yeah, sorry if that came out as combative.
 
Mostly magic club seemed to be a way to get most of the advantages of "Better living though ki" that was a a lot more likely to be voted for. I did not realize just how married to the idea of drama club everyone was.
 
I always figured that we would eventually leave the planet so socializing with the humans here is not that helpful. Instance Transmission is awesome.
 
I wonder if we can pick up techniques and Styles from the aliens. I wonder what they can do.

EDIT: Also, we'll definitely want an action on dealing with the scout aftermath next turn.
 
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I got pulled in by Poptart's post breaking the alert limit. Could someone explain exactly what it is we're fighting over and why? The latest vote didn't involve clubs?
 
I got pulled in by Poptart's post breaking the alert limit. Could someone explain exactly what it is we're fighting over and why? The latest vote didn't involve clubs?
People got the idea of 'drama club as deceit training'. Someone suggested magic club as the alternate.

I have no clue on the rest, except that 'which of those is better' is the argument.
 
People got the idea of 'drama club as deceit training'. Someone suggested magic club as the alternate.

I have no clue on the rest, except that 'which of those is better' is the argument.
Ah, I glanced back a few pages and thought that might just have been an offshoot of arguing about the upcoming yearly vote, but I wasn't sure.

As the person who came up with Drama Club in the first place I might be a bit biased, but I think we care more about Deceit in terms of straight-up lying and pretending we believe something/are something than sleight of hand and misdirection perspective? Since we intend to get political?
 
Mostly magic club seemed to be a way to get most of the advantages of "Better living though ki" that was a a lot more likely to be voted for. I did not realize just how married to the idea of drama club everyone was.
*wince*

Fiction, I know you mean well but that... it could have been phrased better. We've given reasons why we like the idea and why we think it suits better than Magic Club. Married to the idea means we are loyal to it and that we choose it over yours not because we disagree with your arguments or goals and think this better but because we already decided and don't accept any arguments. It means the choice is dogmatic instead of rational and we follow it because we are faithful to it. It is usually used as a petty remark when someone loses an argument, meaning it happened not because the other party disagreed but because they are irrationally attached to their stance.

I know you didn't mean it like that but could you try to be more careful with how you word things? It is ok here because you have participated for a while so we know you are not petty when it comes to arguments but if you are not careful you migth end up ticking people off without knowing why.
 
Ah, I glanced back a few pages and thought that might just have been an offshoot of arguing about the upcoming yearly vote, but I wasn't sure.

As the person who came up with Drama Club in the first place I might be a bit biased, but I think we care more about Deceit in terms of straight-up lying and pretending we believe something/are something than sleight of hand and misdirection perspective? Since we intend to get political?
PoptartProdigy clarified that Deceit does not differentiate between those two, so in that context it doesn't really matter which we choose.
 
PoptartProdigy clarified that Deceit does not differentiate between those two, so in that context it doesn't really matter which we choose.
Good to know! Though I would note that if the action leads to a trait (like how we got Knowledgeable Gokun Foreigner), I would expect an "acting" trait to be more useful than a "magician" trait.
 
PoptartProdigy clarified that Deceit does not differentiate between those two, so in that context it doesn't really matter which we choose.
The flip side is that if we train the exact kind of Deceit we intend to use, it seems more likely that:

1) We may get a trait relevant to the kind of Deceit we're likely to use, in the happy event of a critical success.

2) We're less likely to get some kind of mechanical malus, or more likely to get a mechanical bonus, to the success of the training, due to circumstantial modifiers. Things like "oh yeah, this aligns exactly with your goals and synergizes with your experiences better."

Meta:
I really don't want to come off as holier-than-thou here, or speaking out of turn in PoptartProdigy's thread, but I feel the need to speak up here: Please, please think through what you're saying before you post it? Everyone on the other side of the screen, unless there have been massive advancements in AI that I do not know about, are people. They support the positions they do because they believe they are the best options. What you say has impact on them, and not just on them, but on everyone in the thread -- it changes the thread's dynamic to treat others so.

On which note, I'm not going to call anyone out specifically here, that's not the point of this, but I've noticed several people over the past pages treating others as if they were acting in poor faith. Even if this was the case (which, for the record, I doubt), it explicitly lowers the quality of discourse to call them out -- it changes the topic of discussion from "what do we want to do in the next update cycle, etc." to "what a bad person this is".

I know how easy it is, sometimes, to view others' positions as combative, but do your best to avoid that, and we'll all have more fun. Even if nothing else convinces you, I believe PoptartProdigy has expressed their dislike for it, and a happy QM is a productive one, right?

You're all wonderful people.
Speaking from my own perspective, I try quite hard to make the assumption of good faith among all parties involved. One of the chronic difficulties I've had here is, there are a long list of ways that people acting in good faith can not only make a mistake, but make an escalating mistake. People wind up believing they have a monopoly on the truth, people wind up believing they can render facts irrelevant through rhetoric, people wind up believing all manner of such things. They make a mistake, then they naturally tend to double down in defense of that mistake.

This is a thing that happens to people. It is not the product of "bad faith debating." No one is immune to it. And ignoring the fact that it happens just leads to angry people angrily defending their right to say things they will hopefully go "my God, what was I thinking!?" about later. Because there is no upper limit on how wrong-headed I, or anyone else, can get once we hop on the 'pattern of interlocking fallacies' train.

Trouble is... as far as I know, there's no way to politely say "I know I'm not omniscient or something, and I know you're a good, smart person, who is acting in good faith. But I have to say, this really really really REALLY looks like you're committing one of the classic fallacies that leads people to embrace bad ideas and defend them with intense, seemingly irrational vigor."

In short, the problem we see in this comic:



So that's where I'm coming from. I don't want to insult anyone, but I also want a way to say "This looks like flawed reasoning, and it looks like a pattern of fallacious reasoning; you may have wandered over a cliff without realizing it." These may, I admit, be fundamentally incompatible desires.

Does anyone have any thoughts on how to actually accomplish this?
 
The flip side is that if we train the exact kind of Deceit we intend to use, it seems more likely that:

1) We may get a trait relevant to the kind of Deceit we're likely to use, in the happy event of a critical success.

2) We're less likely to get some kind of mechanical malus, or more likely to get a mechanical bonus, to the success of the training, due to circumstantial modifiers. Things like "oh yeah, this aligns exactly with your goals and synergizes with your experiences better."

Speaking from my own perspective, I try quite hard to make the assumption of good faith among all parties involved. One of the chronic difficulties I've had here is, there are a long list of ways that people acting in good faith can not only make a mistake, but make an escalating mistake. People wind up believing they have a monopoly on the truth, people wind up believing they can render facts irrelevant through rhetoric, people wind up believing all manner of such things. They make a mistake, then they naturally tend to double down in defense of that mistake.

This is a thing that happens to people. It is not the product of "bad faith debating." No one is immune to it. And ignoring the fact that it happens just leads to angry people angrily defending their right to say things they will hopefully go "my God, what was I thinking!?" about later. Because there is no upper limit on how wrong-headed I, or anyone else, can get once we hop on the 'pattern of interlocking fallacies' train.

Trouble is... as far as I know, there's no way to politely say "I know I'm not omniscient or something, and I know you're a good, smart person, who is acting in good faith. But I have to say, this really really really REALLY looks like you're committing one of the classic fallacies that leads people to embrace bad ideas and defend them with intense, seemingly irrational vigor."

In short, the problem we see in this comic:



So that's where I'm coming from. I don't want to insult anyone, but I also want a way to say "This looks like flawed reasoning, and it looks like a pattern of fallacious reasoning; you may have wandered over a cliff without realizing it." These may, I admit, be fundamentally incompatible desires.

Does anyone have any thoughts on how to actually accomplish this?
A couple tricks:

In my experience, in attempting to understand others' views and correct them, it helps to adopt a somewhat idealistic, forthright, noncombative persona. Agree with what people say, but then go "but did you think of X?" -- make it into a conversation rather than about how they're wrong. I realize that this may come off to you as kind of disingenuous, and in a perfect world it wouldn't be necessary, but it works and doesn't hurt anyone, so.

Another thing that I actually learned from the other quest I follow: If you can be certain that the other person trusts that what you say is honest, than you can preface your words with "There is no subtext to what I'm about to say:" and then very explicitly -- yes, even moreso than you're thinking -- elaborate on what you're seeing of them. This very specifically only works with people who can trust you -- otherwise they will likely see it as being demeaning, condescending, or rude, because the manner of speech it necessitates may come off that way. I'm not in the mental condition to give examples right now, but I'll look for them later.
 
Honestly, I'll settle for being able to try to tell people in a forthright way "no subtext here, I'm not accusing you of bad faith or anything, I honestly think you are committing a common type of fallacy," and avoid having third parties blame me for arguing with people.

[sighs]
 
The flip side is that if we train the exact kind of Deceit we intend to use, it seems more likely that:

1) We may get a trait relevant to the kind of Deceit we're likely to use, in the happy event of a critical success.

2) We're less likely to get some kind of mechanical malus, or more likely to get a mechanical bonus, to the success of the training, due to circumstantial modifiers. Things like "oh yeah, this aligns exactly with your goals and synergizes with your experiences better."

I am mostly going for deceit plus ki practice. I have already mentioned the possibile synergies.

I will admit that I find the ki practice more important than the deceit. I can to leverage our ki prodigy trait as much as possible and find ways to use ki that no one else has ever thought of or can manage.

Honestly, I'll settle for being able to try to tell people in a forthright way "no subtext here, I'm not accusing you of bad faith or anything, I honestly think you are committing a common type of fallacy," and avoid having third parties blame me for arguing with people.

[sighs]
That works so long as you are finding a fallacy with the argument. Picking apart the argument is fine and expected. However making assumptions about why the person is making there arguments is not helpful at all. And in fact does not matter. Arguments live and die on there own merits regardless of who is making them.
 
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