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Dragon Ball: After the End

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PoptartProdigy said:
Nah, that's entirely you reading the RP coming back to bite you. ;) The Exiles don't know what the Enemy used.
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PoptartProdigy said:
"It means he might be a magician," you say, stubborn.

Carrick snorts. "Oh, sterling deduction there. Of course he's a magician. Not even Son Gohan felt anything from him when he came to Earth. The Lords and Ladies have known for years; you're just not given the briefing until you become Lady."
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Entirely due to in-quest details. :p

To clarify, I was suggesting it was originally known/suspected/believed by all the survivors, but that knowledge was lost/suppressed until only the Lords were aware. But the prejudice that generated lingered, warping the culture to provide a reasoning for its continued existence.
 
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Gore17 said:
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Entirely due to in-quest details. :p

To clarify, I was suggesting it was originally known/suspected/believed by all the survivors, but that knowledge was lost/suppressed until only the Lords were aware. But the prejudice that generated lingered.
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The Exiles don't know. Their leadership knows; the Seers know; the people do not. And never did. Nobody saw the Enemy, remember, and nobody could use or recognize magic until later. The people who know only know due to pastsight. Carrick acts like it's an obvious conclusion because he's a bit of an asshole. :p There are plenty of ways to get strong without a big power level.

Magic was distasteful to them because, Baba aside, the Exiles' most prominent cultural context for magic was Babidi. This was originally a mild distaste -- Baba was a thing, after all, if a minor one -- but was exaggerated by the Exiles' gradual adoption of a warrior culture in order to emphasize their heritage in cultural self-defense.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
The Exiles don't know. Their leadership knows; the Seers know; the people do not. And never did. Nobody saw the Enemy, remember, and nobody could use or recognize magic until later. The people who know only know due to pastsight. Carrick acts like it's an obvious conclusion because he's a bit of an asshole. :p There are plenty of ways to get strong without a big power level.

Magic was distasteful to them because, Baba aside, the Exiles' most prominent cultural context for magic was Babidi. This was originally a mild distaste -- Baba was a thing, after all, if a minor one -- but was exaggerated by the Exiles' gradual adoption of a warrior culture in order to emphasize their heritage in cultural self-defense.
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Carrick mentions that the Lords came to independently:
PoptartProdigy said:
"We considered telling," he says. "We Saw the Lords of the time telling us it was nothing they hadn't already figured out and made provisions to pass down. We decided not to bother. Why tip our hand for no gain? We chose to settle in and wait for a better vision. The more people are in on the secret, the more people can spill it." His eyes go back to normal over the course of his speech. "Anyway. Is there anything else you got out of your vision than what you said already?"
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And I would have thought "Dragon Balls" would be a more prominent cultural context then freaking Babidi. Like, who remembers he even exists half the time? Hell, Goku used magic/magic items. :p

So, yeah, that explains my reasoning: no real reason for said distaste, unless at least a few suspected the Enemy used magic. The prejudiced caused by that was passed down, and resulted in magic being held in contempt by the developing warrior culture, rather then a rare ability/tool that allows a more diverse combat set. Because looking with scorn on a group so vital without a justifiable reason somewhere doesn't make much sense to me.
 
Gore17 said:
Carrick mentions that the Lords came to independently:

And I would have thought "Dragon Balls" would be a more prominent cultural context then freaking Babidi. Like, who remembers he even exists half the time? Hell, Goku used magic/magic items. :p
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...I'm bad with phrasing today. Yes, we're talking past each other; you're right, and I'm failing to communicate that. The point at which I'm driving is that the people at large haven't determined it.

Dragon Balls don't count.

Piccolo: Um, I'm pretty sure-

Exile: (through clenched teeth) They. Don't. Count.

Piccolo: GOKU USED MAGIC ITEMS!

Exile: I will punch you.

Gore17 said:
So, yeah, that explains my reasoning: no real reason for said distaste, unless at least a few suspected the Enemy used magic. The prejudiced caused by that was passed down, and resulted in magic being held in contempt by the developing warrior culture, rather then a rare ability/tool that allows a more diverse combat set. Because looking with scorn on a group so vital without a justifiable reason somewhere doesn't make much sense to me.
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Guardsmen, physicians (such as they were), sanitation workers (such as they were), and grave diggers of medieval Europe say hi. Teachers of the United States (how are those pension funds holding up, state legislatures?) also send their regards.

It makes no sense, no. People did it anyway, and continue to do so.
 
Gore17 said:
Actually, all of those make sense.if you think about them and their history.
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You know, distrust and disdain for magicians is actually a common feature of many traditional cultures in real life (yes, magic doesn't work in those cultures, but they believe it does). A magician who works for good may be respected as well as feared, but there is nearly always a sense that they aren't "like us," that they are a breed apart, less trustworthy. And it doesn't take much to tip people over into violent witch hunts if they get so much as a rumor that someone is practicing evil magic.

Again, yes, magic doesn't work in real life. But the very fact that people can be roused to mob violence by objectively false accusations of evil magic that doesn't exist tells you a lot about how uncomfortable people can be with the concept.
 
Drasizard said:
I hereby vote for plan Simon_Jester
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especially in a large and active quest like this, you really need to actually use the vote format.

Tallies only recognize the format, and especially as their is now an in built tally program, most people tally.

But even hand counts take advantage of the handy short hand the [X] at the start of a line represents, and skim through the thread ignoring posts that don't feature such.
 
Cariyaga said:
Is Kakaara wearing pants, short, or a skirt? It's possible she could wrap it around her leg before anyone notices.
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Fairly sure she stopped wearing skirts. (forgot to comment on this)

Also, something I recently discovered but also forgot to comment on: did you know Piccolo was immortal? I mean, in the "live forever" way. King Piccolo wished for Eternal Youth, and Piccolo Jr inherited it. Neat.
 
Gore17 said:
Fairly sure she stopped wearing skirts. (forgot to comment on this)

Also, something I recently discovered but also forgot to comment on: did you know Piccolo was immortal? I mean, in the "live forever" way. King Piccolo wished for Eternal Youth, and Piccolo Jr inherited it. Neat.
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Shame about him being killed.
 
Gore17 said:
Fairly sure she stopped wearing skirts. (forgot to comment on this)

Also, something I recently discovered but also forgot to comment on: did you know Piccolo was immortal? I mean, in the "live forever" way. King Piccolo wished for Eternal Youth, and Piccolo Jr inherited it. Neat.
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I am not that sure that is the case. In some translations he does indeed wish eternal youth while in others just to be young again. With how long namekians live we wouldn't notice any difference before the series ended.
 
Bakkasama said:
I am not that sure that is the case. In some translations he does indeed wish eternal youth while in others just to be young again. With how long namekians live we wouldn't notice any difference before the series ended.
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The wording used was 永遠の若さ, which directly translates to "Eternal Youth". And it was mentioned in one of the Daizenshuu, aka one of the guide books, that he inherited it because, metaphysically, he's the same being.
 
@PoptartProdigy

1. (I think this has been asked before but I don't know of any key words I can use that won't give me a whole bunch of unrelated results. Sorry.) Now, while the penalty from Pacifism would cancel it out if it exists, does Kakara get a bonus to learning or inventing Combat stuff due to her Saiyan heritage?
1.a. If not, do pure humans get a penalty due to lack of a Saiyan heritage?
1.b. If neither, do only pure Saiyans get a bonus to that stuff?
2. You ok'd my spiritual pressure idea and I have since come up with something new related to it: effect inversion. Ki is life energy and as such can be used for benevolent/non-violent things such as healing and telepathy. So, instead of using spiritual pressure in a violent way as with beams and blasts, what if we used it in a non-violent way? I don't know what its physical effects would be, but I think its mental effects would be something like reassurance and inspiration.
3. Would using spiritual pressure enhance/make more full the "flavour" of your ki? (GMG's ki's "flavour", for example, was "princely".)
 
Andres110 said:
@PoptartProdigy

1. (I think this has been asked before but I don't know of any key words I can use that won't give me a whole bunch of unrelated results. Sorry.) Now, while the penalty from Pacifism would cancel it out if it exists, does Kakara get a bonus to learning or inventing Combat stuff due to her Saiyan heritage?
1.a. If not, do pure humans get a penalty due to lack of a Saiyan heritage?
1.b. If neither, do only pure Saiyans get a bonus to that stuff?
2. You ok'd my spiritual pressure idea and I have since come up with something new related to it: effect inversion. Ki is life energy and as such can be used for benevolent/non-violent things such as healing and telepathy. So, instead of using spiritual pressure in a violent way as with beams and blasts, what if we used it in a non-violent way? I don't know what its physical effects would be, but I think its mental effects would be something like reassurance and inspiration.
3. Would using spiritual pressure enhance/make more full the "flavour" of your ki? (GMG's ki's "flavour", for example, was "princely".)
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1. In general, genetic heritage offers neither penalties nor bonuses to things. Kakara's status as an Exile entitles her to greater opportunities to improve compared to most humans (i.e., better training options), and being a saiyan means that she gets a flat multiplier on training progress up until she hits her cap.

2. Very much a, "research project," kind of question.

3. See 2.
 
Kakara should look into finding someone with interest in technique development to work with on these non-secret techniques.
 
Cariyaga said:
Kakara should look into finding someone with interest in technique development to work with on these non-secret techniques.
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A lot of stuff we've been looking at researching have been investigated. Most researchers don't have our skill with Ki, our innate talent with Ki, our level of power or the Sight. You usually only get one or two of those. :cool:
 
Andres110 said:
1.b. If neither, do only pure Saiyans get a bonus to that stuff?
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All living saiyans in Dragonball AE are descended from Goku and Vegeta, who married women of Earth. Starting with Gohan, every saiyan ever born was not 'pure' in the sense of 'not 100% saiyan.' Given the small size of the starting Exile community, the saiyan genes almost have to have mixed with Earth genes many time. There are no full-blooded saiyans anymore.

The fact that distinctively saiyan beings still exist, in that they express themselves with the tail and the unusually easy power gains and the turning into a giant ape and so on... That strongly suggests that from a developmental perspective, saiyan genes tend to overwrite human genes to a large extent, when thet two conflict about how the developing organism is supposed to look and behave.
 
Simon_Jester said:
All living saiyans in Dragonball AE are descended from Goku and Vegeta, who married women of Earth. Starting with Gohan, every saiyan ever born was not 'pure' in the sense of 'not 100% saiyan.' Given the small size of the starting Exile community, the saiyan genes almost have to have mixed with Earth genes many time. There are no full-blooded saiyans anymore.

The fact that distinctively saiyan beings still exist, in that they express themselves with the tail and the unusually easy power gains and the turning into a giant ape and so on... That strongly suggests that from a developmental perspective, saiyan genes tend to overwrite human genes to a large extent, when thet two conflict about how the developing organism is supposed to look and behave.
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Honestly, I'm rather curious if the Saiyans we saw in the series are the actual "original" or "pure" Saiyans myself. I can't help but wonder if the Saiyans we see were the result of an even more ancient version interbreeding with a near-human species.

Considering that Tarble, in at least one parallel where the Enemy occurred, managed to have children with his wife Gure, I strongly suspect "can interbreed with anything", with the children still being Saiyans, is just one of their abilities.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
That strongly suggests that from a developmental perspective, saiyan genes tend to overwrite human genes to a large extent, when thet two conflict about how the developing organism is supposed to look and behave.
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Honestly it seems like an even mix between the two. From Saiyans, hybrids get the tail, the training bonus, zenkai, and Super Saiyan. From humans, hybrids get their physical growth (using Gohan and Future Trunks as examples), their hair-changeability, and their mentality. If we use the original hybrids as examples, we can also tell that the presence of human genes massively improves the power level growth of a being with Saiyan DNA. (It's not unlike an alloy, with humans being tin (complete shit) and Saiyans being copper (merely a bit shit), producing a much stronger material when mixed together: bronze (very good, slightly better than iron.)))
 
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Andres110 said:
Honestly it seems like an even mix between the two. From Saiyans, hybrids get the tail, the training bonus, zenkai, and Super Saiyan. From humans, hybrids get their physical growth (using Gohan and Future Trunks as examples), their hair-changeability, and their mentality. If we use the original hybrids as examples, we can also tell that the presence of human genes massively improves the power level growth of a being with Saiyan DNA. (It's not unlike an alloy, with humans being tin (complete shit) and Saiyans being copper (merely a bit shit), producing a much stronger material when mixed together - bronze (very good, slightly better than iron.))
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That is the best metaphor I've encountered all week. :D

Writing the update, folks! Was hellishly busy all day yesterday. To the point where I haven't even counted the votes yet, despite closing...

...looks like this is our winner:

[x] Negotiate. Convince them to hold off for long enough to talk. Dad will show up then, and his presence will allow you to dictate terms from there. You...you know you can at least delay. That said, if you fail to stop them completely you default to having to hold your ground, so if that doesn't appeal...
-[x] You are their host. Speak confident, calm, polite and with authority. They didn't want to negotiate from a vulnerable position. Now they are not. What do they want in this planet and why are they here?

Would've been a narrow lead, but a few votes that wound up getting counted differently for some reason despite no clear differences put it more solidly in the lead.

In other news, this was one of the more split votes we've had. Have a look at this insanity:

Vote Tally : Sci-Fi - Dragon Ball: After the End | Page 512 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 12799-13044]
##### NetTally 1.9.8

[x] Negotiate. Convince them to hold off for long enough to talk. Dad will show up then, and his presence will allow you to dictate terms from there. You...you know you can at least delay. That said, if you fail to stop them completely you default to having to hold your ground, so if that doesn't appeal...
-[x] You are their host. Speak confident, calm, polite and with authority. They didn't want to negotiate from a vulnerable position. Now they are not. What do they want in this planet and why are they here?
No. of Votes: 11
Bakkasama
anailater
Aranfan
Cariyaga
ChildishChimera
Gore17
jy3
KaintukeeBob
KnightDisciple
Quest
Terrabrand

[X] Draw them away. Whether or not Sensei got the news to Dad, the Hall blocks ki going out, not in. Fight a holding action and get away from the school; your father will be here momentarily, and then this will be over.
-[X] Prepare to teleport well outside the city limits.
-[X] Take Jaron's hand. Telepathically tell Maya to join hands with us, as fast as possible. Once we're all in contact, use Instant Transmission.
-[X] After teleporting, explain to Maya and Jaron. Tell them we're waiting for Dad to show up, and warn of the risk of getting attacked and tranquilized before then.
-[X] If the scouts pursue us, power up enough to deter them from attacking immediately, and try to negotiate.
No. of Votes: 5
The Fourth Monado
Blonddude42
Simon_Jester
veekie
WadeSwiftly

[X] Negotiate. Convince them to hold off for long enough to talk. Dad will show up then, and his presence will allow you to dictate terms from there. You...you know you can at least delay. That said, if you fail to stop them completely you default to having to hold your ground, so if that doesn't appeal...
-[X] Power up to 1 million to cause hesitation through intimidation. Imply heavier hitters coming. if hostilities break out, up to 5 million is authorized to protect ourselves and our friends.
No. of Votes: 1
DarknessSmiles

[X] Negotiate. Convince them to hold off for long enough to talk. Dad will show up then, and his presence will allow you to dictate terms from there. You...you knowyou can at least delay. That said, if you fail to stop them completely you default to having to hold your ground, so if that doesn't appeal...
-[X] "Your information is clearly lacking. Back off now, before you dig yourself too deep."
No. of Votes: 1
Karnax626

[X] Negotiate. Convince them to hold off for long enough to talk. Dad will show up then, and his presence will allow you to dictate terms from there. You...you know you can at least delay. That said, if you fail to stop them completely you default to having to hold your ground, so if that doesn't appeal...
No. of Votes: 1
Carrnage

[x] Negotiate. Convince them to hold off for long enough to talk. Dad will show up then, and his presence will allow you to dictate terms from there. You...you knowyou can at least delay. That said, if you fail to stop them completely you default to having to hold your ground, so if that doesn't appeal...
-[x] You are their host. Speak confident, calm, polite and with authority. They didn't want to negotiate from a vulnerable position. Now they are not. What do they want in this planet and why are they here?
-[x] If negotiating breaks down and you're forced to hold your ground, power up to 20 million or more and shut them down hard. Making sure nobody here dies and nobody gets kidnapped is more important than maintaining your mask.
No. of Votes: 1
KInruush

[X] Go SSj.
-[X] End this with very enthusiastic diplomacy.
No. of Votes: 1
Katsuragi

[X] Armageddon Initiative
No. of Votes: 1
faflec

[X] Negotiate. Convince them to hold off for long enough to talk. Dad will show up then, and his presence will allow you to dictate terms from there. You...you know you can at least delay. That said, if you fail to stop them completely you default to having to hold your ground, so if that doesn't appeal...
-[X] Imply heavier hitters coming. Ask what scouts want. Work withthem. Convey that they tracked you, not Maya. Move discussion away from civilians. If not.. Draw them away from school.
No. of Votes: 1
LucidityWaver

[x] Negotiate. Convince them to hold off for long enough to talk. Dad will show up then, and his presence will allow you to dictate terms from there. You...you knowyou can at least delay. That said, if you fail to stop them completely you default to having to hold your ground, so if that doesn't appeal...
-[x] You are their host. Speak confident, calm, polite and with authority. They didn't want to negotiate from a vulnerable position. Now they are not. What do they want in this planet and why are they here?
-[x] If negotiating breaks down and you're forced to hold your ground, power up to q 1 million or more and hold them off until help gets here. If it seems like someone is going to get hurt beat higher for a beat.
No. of Votes: 1
fictionfan

[X] Draw them away. By agreeing to fly with them away from any cities. Prepare to fight because they will likely attack.
-[X] Take Jaron's hand. Telepathically tell Maya to join hands with us, as fast as possible.
-[X] Be prepared to teleport well outside the city limits. Telepathically tell them both the plan to stall for dad and the risk of getting attacked before then and getting tranqued.
-[X] Power up sufficiently to get them to negotiate/hesitate first.
-[X] Go to 10 million, intercept the attacks and end all of them except the leader, capture him.
No. of Votes: 1
Drasizard

Total No. of Voters: 25

Nine one-voter votes, although most are, by composition, alloys of varying other votes.
 
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