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Dragon Ball: After the End

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fictionfan said:
Complexity penalties. Huge complexity penalties.
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Meh. "Subvert and prop up a resentful local minority as a loyal client government" is kinda colonialism 101, and the scouts do have standing orders to bring the planet to heel on their own. If they did their job well enough to find out about the masquerade, cutting a deal with a rebellious faction is something they might try. Worse, the rebellious factions might well decide to seek the scouts out from the other direction knowing that they could overthrow the newcomers once their part had been played.



Aranfan said:
There you go, major rail line. That's the most probable target.
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Rail lines are long targets, so you've at best reduced a large two dimensional range to a large one dimensional one. More importantly, they're also both difficult to hit and very, very quickly patched, which is why militaries trying to knock rail infrastructure out from the air aim for rail yards, interconnects, bridges, tunnels, etc.

Really, their aiming for the center of local civil administration is more likely than their just happening to decide to waste their first strike on that one specific stretch of rail line, and even that seems pretty unlikely.



Simon_Jester said:
It increases the likelihood of a random bomb attack, but doesn't guarantee it. A railroad can be hit anywhere along the line, and the most likely targets would be stations, switches, or marshalling yards- Kakara would know if those were nearby, probably.

I do think we still have to make a plan that works if we're being deliberately targeted by saiyans who know about us.


HM.

Major problem with knocking Jaron out.

Lady Dandeer is going to find out, and want to know what happened and whether Jaron remembers anything that would lead him to think of ki powers.

Cue that mind scan we've been trying to avoid.

Can anyone think of any way to AVOID Dandeer being suspicious enough about what happened to mind-scan Jaron? Because I really, really can't. If we leave him conscious she'll wonder, if we knock him unconscious she'll wonder and be worried about him (I think/assume; she did something horrible to Jaffur to turn him into her 'dream son,' but presumably that is BECAUSE she values said 'dream son')

The only way I can think of is to make sure Dandeer never finds out what happened, and that may already be impossible given the constraints... OR to run home at merely human speed which is exactly what almost everyone DOESN'T want to do.
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Suffocation might knock him out both thoroughly and safely for a short while. A flare would blind him as well as anybody watching. He's already having headaches and losing time, and just had another major episode, so simply flashing him somewhere else and telling him he passed out and more time passed would be fairly believable, especially if it seems as if he hit his head during the blast or fall.

Alternatively, we could activate the plan right now. Drop him off with the Senzus, then tell everybody we lost him in the chaos. With scouts on the planet and a war going on the problem of getting him away from his minders immediately concluding Senzu kidnapping becomes much easier.
 
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@Lailoken I think you might be jumping to assumptions. I don't remember it being said that this was aworld war but an attack on the city country. If there are other attack sites though, that would point to this not being an attack on us.

Furthermore, it makes more sense for the explosion near us to be a coincidence. We were here out schedule so they couldn't have known without seer, they would have aimed for tge school bus otherwise. We don'tknow if they have the tech level to aim for two children walking on the street. Even if they did, the timing would be too tricky as they would have to calculate in advance when to reach with the plane based on probably a vision and rely on a human pilot.

Furthermore, there was only one explosiin which is not a reliable method to kill scion, they would have droped more if we were the target, we didn't have to power up that much to dodge it. They would also need to convince the human pawn of the importance of killing us, in which casethey would suggest an easier method like an assassin with a bomb or gun. I certainly wouldn't trust it on asingle bomb when the plane could miss; these seems to be bombs instead of missiles so the calculations could be off easily.

It seems more likely that the bomb was dropped here on accident. Because as an assassination attempt, it is kind of a stupid one.
 
Bakkasama said:
@Lailoken I think you might be jumping to assumptions. I don't remember it being said that this was aworld war but an attack on the city country. If there are other attack sites though, that would point to this not being an attack on us.
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It could be an attack on us 'buried' in a larger war, allowing the bad guys to totally avoid being held responsible for Kakara and Jaron's death. From the point of view of a saiyan conspiracy, it's totally worth triggering a war on Garenhuld to knock off the Scions.

Furthermore, it makes more sense for the explosion near us to be a coincidence. We were here out schedule so they couldn't have known without seer, they would have aimed for tge school bus otherwise. We don'tknow if they have the tech level to aim for two children walking on the street. Even if they did, the timing would be too tricky as they would have to calculate in advance when to reach with the plane based on probably a vision and rely on a human pilot.
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The speculation is that Jaffur's sudden desperate attempt to send us a message was him reacting to a sorcerous search attempt, one which was made a few minutes before the attack. At the last moment, the conspirators' sorceror realizes "oh shit, they're not aboard the bus like I thought" and tries to redirect the jet planes to attack the location we're really at. This might explain why they had to indiscriminately bomb our entire area (and miss us by a wide margin)- because they lost the ability to predict our exact location because we weren't on the school bus.

Furthermore, there was only one explosiin which is not a reliable method to kill scion, they would have droped more if we were the target, we didn't have to power up that much to dodge it.
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They may have wanted a high probability of their attack succeeding but been okay with uncertainty- say, if this was an "also-ran" goal associated with a larger plan.

They may have only been able to secure direct control of a limited number of assets (e.g. only a few planes).


It seems more likely that the bomb was dropped here on accident. Because as an assassination attempt, it is kind of a stupid one.
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I'm not ruling that out.

But the possibility that it WAS some kind of assassination attempt, perhaps one that failed for reasons we don't fully understand yet, or perhaps a hastily planned one... It's not necessarily a high probability, but the consequences if true are serious enough that we should take some precautions.

It's almost never a good idea to behave as if a plausible danger, one we can only rule out with an inferential argument like "no one could be stupid enough to fail this way," is nonexistent.

Terrabrand said:
Saiyans have ordinary jobs. There's no reason, to my knowledge, why 'fighter-bomber pilot' couldn't be one.
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That's... an extremely good point. The pilot of the plane that bombed us could BE one of the conspirators, trying to track us with their ki sense and hit us with a bomb at the same time. Although that does invite the question of how they were able to spot us in the first place, powered-down, given that they didn't realize we were still alive and come around for a strafing run or two.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
The speculation is that Jaffur's sudden desperate attempt to send us a message was him reacting to a sorcerous search attempt, one which was made a few minutes before the attack. At the last moment, the conspirators' sorceror realizes "oh shit, they're not aboard the bus like I thought" and tries to redirect the jet planes to attack the location we're really at. This might explain why they had to indiscriminately bomb our entire area (and miss us by a wide margin)- because they lost the ability to predict our exact location because we weren't on the school bus.
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Sorcery requires line of sight, so if that's true, they're very close.

Anyway, I'm amused by the fact that people are assuming that, if there was a conspiracy to assassinate us amongst the invaders, no one has thought it's a human conspiracy.
 
I am saying that it is unlikely for this to be an assassination attempt because it is too convoluted and there are easier ways to do so.

Look, I doubt this is a saiyan conspiracy because there are many ways they could have done this that are a lot less resource intensive and with more chances of success.

For all we know, this is because a neighbour country didn't buy whatever excuse the saiyan cooked up to explain the earth shaking explosions from the fight between Cabba and the scout and they assumed they were making a weapon thus deciding to make a preventive attack. It still makes little sense for it to have come out of nowhere unless they grew paranoid because of the control of themedia coverage.

That theory is unlikely yet much more probable than a saiyan conspiracy. Specially since they have little reason to target both of us. Jaffur is no threat so he can't have been targeted because he is supersaiyan and I can't think of any group that hates both of us specifically.
 
A human conspiracy to kill off the saiyans would be... interesting. I kind of doubt they could launch a targeted bombing on Kakara's current position, though.

A saiyan using sorcery... I don't recall if it's line of sight or not myself, but even if so- that's a point for the "sorceror flying the jet" idea.

...

ANYWAY.

We can construct Epileptic Trees about a hypothetical assassination attempt all we want. This is probably a waste of time. It could be we're overreacting.

But I DO think it makes sense to take some basic precautions, get Jaron well out of harm's way, and make sure dad's been warned about the... somewhat suspicious... nature of the airstrike that almost hit us.

[X] RUN! A war zone is not the place for a squishy human!
-[X] Use Solar Flare to dazzle everyone in the area. It's a bit of a detection risk, but necessary for this to be convincing to Jaron.
-[X] Grab Jaron and use Instant Transmission to teleport to a remote, secluded place on the outskirts of the city, away from any paratroop landing zones.
--[X] If it's possible to raise power level at all while masking Kakara's ki signature, do so to provide some extra protection in case of a surprise attack.
--[X] Claim Jaron had another 'attack,' attributing any confusion or lack of perceived elapsed time to confused memories.
-[X] Contact Berra, mention that the bomb landed awfully close to you and might have been aimed at you and Jaron personally. Maybe there are rogue saiyans involved in all this.
--[X] Request instructions.
 
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That is a distinct possibility, Aranfan. A secret cabal of human sorcerers who've been biding their time and trying to avoid detection by us would be an interesting thing.
 
[x] RUN! A war zone is not the place for a squishy human!
-[x] Use Solar Flare to dazzle everyone in the area. It's a bit of a detection risk, but necessary for this to be convincing to Jaron.
-[x] Grab Jaron and use Instant Transmission to teleport to a remote, secluded place on the outskirts of the city, away from any paratroop landing zones.
--[x] If it's possible to raise power level at all while masking Kakara's ki signature, do so to provide some extra protection in case of a surprise attack.
--[x] Claim Jaron had another 'attack,' attributing any confusion or lack of perceived elapsed time to confused memories.
-[x] Contact Berra, mention that the bomb landed awfully close to you and might have been aimed at you and Jaron personally. Maybe there are rogue saiyans involved in all this.
--[x] Request instructions.
 
I would just like to note that the intent of this plan is that it costs us very little we weren't prepared to risk anyway (Jaron will have suspicious memories, but he'd have them anyway even if we did nothing further)...

While providing us with a measure of security in case hostile saiyans, or some other outside actor like alien scouts or human sorcerers or whatever, is planning to make a follow-up attempt on our lives.
 
Alright... just... is there a plan that keeps it simple and takes Jaffur home without falling to paranoia or using a solar flare on soldiers who had no reason to pay attention to us before it? I rather not do the multiform thing so that it is not revealed that we know it but at this point I am not very picky.
 
The Fourth Monado said:
Interesting assumption. ;)
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My main assumption is that there would almost have to be multiple sorcerers. Any plot involving moving entire nations to war would be too complicated for a single sorcerer to put in motion, or if they could do it, they wouldn't be personally hopping in a jet plane and flying over enemy territory to bomb us, they'd be masterminding from a safe distance.

I also assume these sorcerers have had considerable time in which to refine their arts; otherwise they're not likely to be much of a threat. Thus "hidden cabal," because we don't know about them so they are hidden, and they're a group of magicians so 'cabal' is totally an OK way to describe them so there. :p

Bakkasama said:
Alright... just... is there a plan that keeps it simple and takes Jaffur home without falling to paranoia or using a solar flare on soldiers who had no reason to pay attention to us before it? I rather not do the multiform thing so that it is not revealed that we know it but at this point I am not very picky.
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The soldiers aren't close enough to be seriously affected by the solar flare and have no way to know what it is, plus we literally teleport away right afterwards so it's not like they'll see us around after their vision clears.

The problem with "just take Jaffur home" is that IF there's an assassination plot intended to kill Jaffur, then Jaffur's house is almost certainly a target. And it's not like the house is particularly bomb-proof. So just taking him to his house (or ours) isn't good enough if there's anyone after us personally, if it's not JUST a totally random war blowing up that's in no way related to us at all.

We can take him home in the next vote, but right now if there's a followup attack we want Jaron way the hell out of the area it's intended to target.
 
How many hidden conspiracies do you expect us to run into?

We are already part of 3 by my count. Amazing considering our deceit sucks.
 
Simon_Jester said:
@PoptartProdigy , just to be clear, can Kakara attain a significant power level while actively masking her ki from those who might try to detect her? I was under the impression that this was possible.
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Not really. When she suppresses, she can still use ki, but only as much as she's expressing. I draw this from the show; when the Z Fighters suppress, they're generally on the ground or flying slowly, and they don't otherwise use ki.
Andres110 said:
@PoptartProdigy, would it be possible to eventually figure out a way to fly in a way that we can't be ki sensed?
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You already can, but slowly. If you mean general-purpose, senseless flight...it probably wouldn't involve ki use. The ki-based method of flight is essentially rocket propulsion, after all. Useful, yes, but subtle it is not.
fictionfan said:
How many hidden conspiracies do you expect us to run into?

We are already part of 3 by my count. Amazing considering our deceit sucks.
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Kakara's gotten real good at not being placed into positions where she's forced to directly lie about things. :D
 
PoptartProdigy said:
You already can, but slowly. If you mean general-purpose, senseless flight...it probably wouldn't involve ki use. The ki-based method of flight is essentially rocket propulsion, after all. Useful, yes, but subtle it is not.
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Yeah, I'm asking if we can figure out a way to make rocket propulsion-speed ki-based flight stealthy somehow. Maybe by grabbing onto the air with ki and making the air itself push you? I don't know. I have a feeling that there's a way to do it, just one that's not exactly straight forward or intuitive. (For example, modern flight is achieved with fixed wing or rotary aircraft, not with flapping wings. Quite unintuitive when all you know about flight comes from observing flying animals.)
 
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Andres110 said:
Yeah, I'm asking if we can figure out a way to make rocket propulsion-speed ki-based flight stealthy somehow. Maybe by grabbing onto the air with ki and making the air itself push you? I don't know. I have a feeling that there's a way to do it, just one that's not exactly straight forward or intuitive. (For example, modern flight is achieved with fixed wing or rotary aircraft, not with flapping wings. Quite unintuitive when all you know about flight comes from observing flying animals.)
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Okay, I see what you're saying. Yeah, that's definitely the domain of research projects.
 
fictionfan said:
How many hidden conspiracies do you expect us to run into?

We are already part of 3 by my count. Amazing considering our deceit sucks.
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What it comes down to is that there is no upper limit on the number of conspiracies that can exist, especially in a feudal society that's already a massive secret conspiracy to hide its own existence from the rest of the world. While it is hopefully not the case that there are superpowered assassins gunning for Kakara and Jaffur personally... Nevertheless the bomb attack was almost ideally suited for assassinating a super-saiyan Scion, something that would normally be nigh-impossible. And Jaron would of course just go 'splat' in the face of an attack like this if we hadn't gotten lucky.

We can speculate that a conspiracy exists, or we can doubt that one exists. It doesn't really matter. The point is to take reasonable steps to preserve Jaron's physical safety from possible unknown threats. We don't know what might be involved in this war, it hit us with no warning, and Berra who would presumably have access to half the saiyan information sources on the planet had no idea it was coming. That is troubling enough to merit us at least trying to avoid dragging ourselves around like a duck in a shooting gallery.

Because it's really hard to recover from getting blown up by a surprise attack you didn't see coming because you ruled out the possibility of its existence.
 
Bakkasama said:
Alright... just... is there a plan that keeps it simple and takes Jaffur home without falling to paranoia or using a solar flare on soldiers who had no reason to pay attention to us before it? I rather not do the multiform thing so that it is not revealed that we know it but at this point I am not very picky.
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My vote and the several like it are basically "crank power up just enough to not die to mundane weaponry, and run a bit faster than human norm to get home".

No Flare, no IT, no cranking the power level to the sky, no multiform, none of that. Just toughen up, and run away.
 
The concern (and it was my plan in the first place) is that this leaves us out in the open for an extended period of time at a power level where we could be one-shotted by a sufficiently heavy weapon. Maybe not bullets and shrapnel, but an antitank rocket? Some kind of experimental energy weapon? A ki strike by a sufficiently cunning saiyan?

It's not a bad idea if all we're worried about is the war as it appears to be- a purely mundane conflict among Garenhulders.

But if we want to prepare against more exotic possibilities, then that plan is insufficient.
 
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