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It would still be easier to enact any changes we want to make as an extremely popular tyrant though.

When she comes back Kakara will in all likelyhood have the popularity and the strength to push through whatever reforms she wants. If we install ourselves as a democratic leader or a tyrant is going to have less impact on our ability to do things than it will on our legacy.
 
When she comes back Kakara will in all likelyhood have the popularity and the strength to push through whatever reforms she wants. If we install ourselves as a democratic leader or a tyrant is going to have less impact on our ability to do things than it will on our legacy.
The difference is that if we put a democracy once we return and apply whatever changes we want anyways then it is a sham of a democracy but if we wait until later in life to turn to democracy it still affects our sucessors while letting us use all the exile resources for our pet projects.

Actually, it occurs to me we should clarify, is the bigger issue the super saiyan ban, the monarchic government and the potential abuse it gives or both? Are we arguing that it must change because the current system means that a Lord turning mad can cause its entire failure or because we don't agree on what gives the right to set the laws?

I still think a complete overhaul is too extremist a reaction from the get go but there are alternatives for a transitional period like constitutional or parlamentary monarchy and elections using House heads as representatives/voters if it is an ideological issue.

Edit: Actually, let me change tracks for my argument. Of the six FPSS, 5 are likely to oppose a change to democracy, 3 because they are Vegetan and 2 because they spent their reigns trying to increase crown authority. Out of our population, the Vegeta clan are mostly proud of having a monarchy, with their opposition to Dandeer being because her actions perverted the monarchic government rather than because of because the authority came from it and the Goku clan currently has the most promising Lord and Scion they have had in generations. The Goku clan might be convinced to give it a go because they are more lax but I don't really see Vegetans giving democracy a try and a system that gives the other clan more super saiyans than them is something they would oppose vehemently.

I get that change is needed to stop this cycle of almost descending into civil wars but surely we can do so gradually so that we don't actually start another round of that?
 
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all things considered, we ALL agree that things need to change. We're just not sure of the timetable, and of how far to go.

We need a system that's less "feudal nonsense". We need more super saiyans, partly because they're a strength and a resource, and partly because Saiyans grow stronger the stronger their opponents/rivals/training partners are. And also because there's much discontent and jealousy about the Lords being the only one allowed the legendary transformation, the heritage of the saiyan race.

We need to deal with an alien invasion (or it's aftermath), and Dandeer.

And we need to deal with the effect new and old techniques (ki overdrive, ki refinement, fusion technique, genkidama) will have on the balance of powers.

and we need to do all of this while still keeping hidden from the "Enemy".

...and, probably unrelated, we STILL don't know the origin of Garenhulders' fear of the "unknown".
 
You will also need to consider the Senzus' impact on the question; they have now, well and truly, produced a super saiyan of their own, one who survived direct combat with the Lords. And while they are conventionally loyalist, it is also worth noting that their loyalty has come to center around Jaffur specifically. Further, their Head just made a fiery, short speech about the injustice of the system of Lords and questioning its right to exist before committing the penultimate act of social treason.

Whatever their conventional stances have been, it is severely unlikely that they will remain Vegetan royal loyalists.
 
I would say kill Vegeta and put Raditz as regent but it is a bad precedent to set and it would probably fall to Yammar either way.

We could give him a position that is an honor but also a punishment? Iirc, i think we promised the namekians an embassy or something like that? Or we could commission Dandelor to make a spell to seal the super saiyan transformation, though that is probably the option that leaves everyone unhappy.
 
I would say kill Vegeta and put Raditz as regent but it is a bad precedent to set and it would probably fall to Yammar either way.

We could give him a position that is an honor but also a punishment? Iirc, i think we promised the namekians an embassy or something like that? Or we could commission Dandelor to make a spell to seal the super saiyan transformation, though that is probably the option that leaves everyone unhappy.

Punish him for doing what the only uncompromised royal gave him explicit permission to do? That seems very unjust.
 
Semi-relay from Discord: also worth noting that you did not give permission to Raditz, you spoke permission to Raditz, in rushed fashion and less than completely specified phrasing. It is not precisely in your control whether or not he looked at the odds facing him and decided that the permission was for him and him alone, considering how little time you had to polish those remarks.
 
Punish him for doing what the only uncompromised royal gave him explicit permission to do? That seems very unjust.
Sometimes the world is unfair like that. Ideally we can make a case that he was given permission and thus an exemption should be made but it will depend on who rules the Vegeta clan once the dust settles and how merciful they feel. The authorization did not come from the authorities of his clan and either Vegeta or Yammar might feel that letting an exception to the rule go might be a dangerous precedent if it opens the possibility for one of the clans to raise more super saiyans given the current tensions between clan.

If the Vegetans are unwilling to tolerate another super saiyan in the clan, we might have to compromise by either looking for a way to seal the transformation or creating a new position that could reasonably be expected to need the extra power and that is far enough not to cause problems. Considering the power of some of the galaxy's champion, we could make an argument that missions into the galaxy would need at least one member that can go above 15 M power level so being our representative in a namek colony would stay his execution and give an outlet to those saiyans who want to travel the galaxy.

It is important to remember that the exiles are basically ruled by two different countries and the Senzu are from the other one. So our authorization only counts if the Vegeta say it does (and they shouldn't, as it implies we have authority over their subjects) and what happens to them is not for us to decide. We might make suggestions and we do have influence and capital to spare, but if we come out too strong they might be forced to punish the Senzu just to show that it is not a Goku deciding their policies.
 
that is very likely to go... poorly for the vegetan royals. Considering the Senzu have already shown they are able to defy the royalty.

One of the first rules of being in charge is to never give an order you know won't be followed.
 
Sometimes the world is unfair like that. Ideally we can make a case that he was given permission and thus an exemption should be made but it will depend on who rules the Vegeta clan once the dust settles and how merciful they feel. The authorization did not come from the authorities of his clan and either Vegeta or Yammar might feel that letting an exception to the rule go might be a dangerous precedent if it opens the possibility for one of the clans to raise more super saiyans given the current tensions between clan.

If the Vegetans are unwilling to tolerate another super saiyan in the clan, we might have to compromise by either looking for a way to seal the transformation or creating a new position that could reasonably be expected to need the extra power and that is far enough not to cause problems. Considering the power of some of the galaxy's champion, we could make an argument that missions into the galaxy would need at least one member that can go above 15 M power level so being our representative in a namek colony would stay his execution and give an outlet to those saiyans who want to travel the galaxy.

It is important to remember that the exiles are basically ruled by two different countries and the Senzu are from the other one. So our authorization only counts if the Vegeta say it does (and they shouldn't, as it implies we have authority over their subjects) and what happens to them is not for us to decide. We might make suggestions and we do have influence and capital to spare, but if we come out too strong they might be forced to punish the Senzu just to show that it is not a Goku deciding their policies.

...except that as we've just been discussing, at length, the old order wherein the Vegetan royal house forms one of two pillars of ultimate authority in Saiyan society is very likely to wind up dead and buried. Like, all of this is appealing to political realities that are not especially likely to continue to meaningfully apply.
 
Let's be real: on one side, we gave Raditz permission, so at least part of the fallout will be on us.

also, for the "but he's Vegetan, we can't allow them..."... do you really expect Jaffur to punish him for what he's doing? and even if he would have considered it, we have quite the amount of influence on him... really, the only thing we might not be able to convince him to do is not kill Dandeer, and I'll gladly fail that roll.
 
Again, none of that requires a monarchy.
Yes, but the current system bears some resemblance to one, and the current system is the default system. What reason has Kakara to change it, and what influences are upon iher to change it to anything specific? I hope that you will forgive me for saying this, but this is looking a lot like a personal crusade. As Scion, Kakara does have great relevance to the governance of the population, but reforming the government is not her job, running it is. Her personal goal has far more to do with the issue of Saiyan temperament and culture, which are quite distinctive and would likely interact with familiar governments in ways very different to humans'. This really is an extremely minor issue as far as Kakara's foreseeable life is concerned.
The system was, and continues to be, some randoms deciding they should be in charge because they're the strongest thanks to accident of blood.
That is called inheritance. If you are opposing people granting power to their heirs, then I am interested in where you are going with that, but that practice is alive and well in all governments that I am aware of outside of small isolated cults.

The Lords are the strongest because they are the Lords, and have the means to grant themselves the right to strength. They are not Lords because of being the strongest, that is just a perception thing that may or may not be supported by inherited physical traits. On that note, Saiyans are probably going to be seriously strapped for magic-users for the foreseeable future.
Also, the system is collapsing right now. House Senzu has demonstrated an ability to rebel, even though they are actually loyalists no one knows that. That means the monopoly on force, which is always actually an illusion enforced by the perceived impossibility of defeating the system, is gone. Right now, the only thing preventing the strongest asshole from taking over is that the Strongest Asshole is already in charge and her name is Dandeer.
The Senzu can hide themselves because there is no large-scale magical community to oppose their stealth seals. Dandeer has power because she assassinated the society from hiding before they even knew that there was a fight. All of this is the direct result of Dandeer being a freak occurrence. Long before Dandeer was able to subvert the Gokus, she had already hidden that a larger magical community had existed from the entire populace. Her ability to affect a vast but individually weak community is far greater than her ability to affect singularly powerful individuals. A more community-focused government would appear to be far more vulnerable to her. Her motives were provoked by the leadership, but that was due to her being amongst the leadership, and could have occurred in almost any household.

This isn't a failure to stop a single powerful battle-maniac from deciding that they are tough enough, and pressing the entire population to "voluntarily" come along as cannon-fodder to wear down The Enemy for them, or be "summarily executed for cowardice". This is a situation of a single manipulation maniac being able to single-handedly overcome every wizard in the entire civilisation, and then moving up from there. Most nothing could have prevented this given just how absurd Dandeer's magical advantage was from the moment she was basically the only one. The isolationism made things slightly worse, but the system in place seemed about as capable as anything, short of an Orwellian nightmare, of stopping Dandeer from happening. How would any other system have prevented this outcome?
 
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Semi-relay from Discord: also worth noting that you did not give permission to Raditz, you spoke permission to Raditz, in rushed fashion and less than completely specified phrasing. It is not precisely in your control whether or not he looked at the odds facing him and decided that the permission was for him and him alone, considering how little time you had to polish those remarks.
A distinct point. It's quite possible that if we wait long enough, we'll return to Garenhuld to find that the royals have been dogpiled under a couple of dozen House Senzu super saiyans... though I imagine something else will give way before then.

@Aranfan , my view on the "how to remake Exile society" goes something like this.

Any transition to a new form of government has to fulfill two main of conditions:

1) It has to have enough popular support to have legitimacy. This is a genuine problem with founding 'virgin field' democratic governments in hierarchical societies. Right now, the typical Exile has very strong clan/house loyalties and a majority of them are considerably more loyal to the royals than they would be to any novel form of government that runs along lines unfamiliar to them. Before you can build an elected government you have to create some degree of liberal sentiment among the populace at large, or they'll just continue voting for whoever looks like the biggest strongman and quietly shrug whenever the strongman consolidates too much power.

2) It has to resolve the problem of 'monopoly of force.' This is, to put it mildly, not simple without control of the super saiyan transformation. I'm not saying it's insoluble, but it's not simple. And the problem of maintaining the loyalty of your designated law-enforcers, the ones who keep the others from having slap-fights that shatter a continent, is made even MORE complicated if you are already transitioning to a form of government that struggles to maintain the loyalty of the population.

The big issue we face is that even if you have a satisfactory answer to (2), the problem of (1) can sink the whole project.
 
Surely we could at least shift from an absolute diarchy to an oligarchic republic? It would still be a tyranny but it would push things in a better direction.

Seriously the diarchy is so unjust, opressive and frigile its amasing it lasted as long as it did and it *cannot* survive what Dandeer, Vegeta and Raditz have done.

To be clear Dandeer is the inevitable result of this society. The way you stop people like her from arrising is eliminating the injustice and trauma that lead them to become that way and by having a level playing field so no one can abuse their power to control things like that.
 
To be clear Dandeer is the inevitable result of this society. The way you stop people like her from arrising is eliminating the injustice and trauma that lead them to become that way and by having a level playing field so no one can abuse their power to control things like that.
If you find a way to provide a level playing field that'd be amazing, but nobody has ever managed it so I don't like your chances. The story of abusive spouses is all too common all over, and Dandeer could have been contained by the mages, whatever system they used, if merely having a different system were sufficient to achieve such, but she clearly got through at least two systems to get where she is now. The government as it stands clearly has some pretty severe issues, and the ability of the Vegeta house to keep things quiet and in-house didn't help, but it is a fairly decent system when they are on a semi-war-footing with a somewhat divided populace and have clear and consistent agreed-upon overarching goals of "don't be seen".

We really don't want people to have too much personal freedom when a single flare-up could bring down The Enemy and almost the entire population are on the battle-maniac scale. Everyone wants to be powerful, and if they get that wish, then a single drunken brawl could doom the species, and drunken brawling is not exactly unlikely. There are likely odds and ends that could be improved, but big shifts, without a really top quality plan for exactly how it leads to removing the proverbial damoclean sword, especially those based upon human idealism, are not a good idea.
 
As Scion, Kakara does have great relevance to the governance of the population, but reforming the government is not her job, running it is.
To be frank, it is exactly her job. Reform of any stripe is naturally the job of the person in charge. Whose job would it be, otherwise?
The Senzu can hide themselves because there is no large-scale magical community to oppose their stealth seals. Dandeer has power because she assassinated the society from hiding before they even knew that there was a fight.
Dandeer killed the Vegetan sorcerers. The Gokun sorcerers remain; we've seen them on-screen before. They are now at her disposal; she hid previously by exploiting the Clan divide and thus being able to tell any curious Gokuns to piss off and mind their business. Now, of course, they report ultimately to her.

The Senzus are able to remain hidden because Dandelor is legitimately that good.
 
So, we're fundamentally weighing the benefits of democratic reforms (and possible demand for them) against the limitations those reforms would impose on us.

What if we could have a democratic reform that actually gave us more power, at least for now? Specifically, what if we introduce the idea of a vote of no confidence, requiring, say, 60% of the clan heads of that house? Maybe a larger percentage, Iunno.

Scion calls for a vote, and if the clan heads support it, the Scion becomes Lord/Lady early.

This would give the clan heads a check against abusive or incompetent Lords. It would likely make Kakara and Jaffur Lords early, actually increasing our personal power. And since the Scion in question is also a Super Saiyan, they, with support of the clans, should be able to overthrow a resisting Lord.

The main downside I see to this is that it'll make our relationship with our father rather complicated.
 
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So, we're fundamentally weighing the benefits of democratic reforms (and possible demand for them) against the limitations those reforms would impose on us.

What if we could have a democratic reform that actually gave us more power, at least for now? Specifically, what if we introduce the idea of a vote of no confidence, requiring, say, 60% of the clan heads of that house? Maybe a larger percentage, Iunno.

Scion calls for a vote, and if the clan heads support it, the Scion becomes Lord/Lady early.

This would give the clan heads a check against abusive or incompetent Lords. It would likely make Kakara and Jaffur Lords early, actually increasing our personal power. And since the Scion in question is also a Super Saiyan, they, with support of the clans, should be able to overthrow a resisting Lord.

The main downside I see to this is that it'll make our relationship with our father rather complicated.
That kind of opens the floor for House heads to try to put a puppet ruler in place. Besides, they would point out that that is the point of the patriarchs, to step in if the Lord is that bad.
 
That kind of opens the floor for House heads to try to put a puppet ruler in place.
Make the supermajority large enough, and if the House heads can agree that strongly to put a puppet ruler on the throne in the place of the reigning Lord... then the puppet heir is probably preferable to the alternative.

The real problem with having an impeachment mechanism for the Lords in this system is the "you and what army" effect, which is the unfortunate corollary of having the state's monopoly of force be concentrated in the royal family's own person.

"The mice have voted to put a bell on the cat."

Besides, they would point out that that is the point of the patriarchs, to step in if the Lord is that bad.
Historically this hasn't seemed to work very well, since there have been several Lords who were in one sense or another 'bad' even though Exile civilization on Garenhuld is only... what, two or three centuries old in its present recognizable form?
 
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