Dragon Ball: After the End
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Although if it results in the planet getting blown apart by a random slapfight, thaaaat could be a problem.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
That could happen right now. Hell, Trunks and Goten managed to avoid it and they were the most immature Super Saiyan's we've seen.
- Location
- Italy
In theory it could, in practice it can't.
There's two big safety nets against a random Saiyan blowing up the planet
1) seers
2)the fpssj lords. You need to power up to transform, and a lord, by virtue of being nearly >1 billion compared to a normal saiyan's 15 million, will basically ALWAYS be able to stop the would-be destroyer.
It helps that, thanks to the masques, Saiyan's don't need to sleep.
Of course introducing more SSJ, or even FPSSJ, complicates things and makes the system a lot less stable... At least unless we come up with something to make up for it
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Seers would still be an extant safety net against a random saiyan blowing up the planet.
Secondly, all the saiyans are currently more than capable of casually scourging the planet of all life. Even if they aren't able to blow the planet physically apart. Vegeta was able to credibly threaten it back in the saiyan saga. And he was only 18k there. Most Saiyans on Garenhuld clock in at around a million.
Secondly, all the saiyans are currently more than capable of casually scourging the planet of all life. Even if they aren't able to blow the planet physically apart. Vegeta was able to credibly threaten it back in the saiyan saga. And he was only 18k there. Most Saiyans on Garenhuld clock in at around a million.
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- Location
- Italy
My point was that a lord will ALWAYS be able to stop a Saiyan from doing that. Especially when they can use Instant transmission.
...well, technically if multiple saiyans tried to do that at the same time they might succeed, but it's not easy to find multiple people willing to destroy their own planets. Not without mind control
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
So could a team dedicated to doing so. Instant Transmission isn't a secret.
Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
The issue is not some rando blowing up the planet, the issue is that you need whoever enforces the laws to have enough power to stop some rando from doing whatever they want just because they are strong. Having the ruling houses being the only ones who can go SS ensures that and it can't be just them having the secret for FPSS because the more SS there are the more likely it is that somebody else will figure it out and that is without even considering the new ways to output higher PL.
Edit: Unless we have another way to ensure that the ruling body can enforce the law, a monarchy variant is probably the best we can do and the current system, in theory, has the Lord from the other clan as a check for the one from the first going tyrant.
Edit: Unless we have another way to ensure that the ruling body can enforce the law, a monarchy variant is probably the best we can do and the current system, in theory, has the Lord from the other clan as a check for the one from the first going tyrant.
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The Fourth Monado
S U B A R A S H I I
- Location
- Away
Really what we need is someone with the same temperament and personality as Goku to enforce a few simple rules then let everyone else figure shit out on their own.
But we don't have that, so...
But we don't have that, so...
Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
Even if we did, it is not a susteanable system without a way to choose their sucessor.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Yet that was the first thing people in the thread said to defend the diarchy. And again, a team of peeps trained in deescalation with Instant Transmission could do a hell of a lot of work. Just have some peeps like Kakara talk people down whenever a fight gets too heated. Train them to be strong enough to hold their own.
Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
Not quite the scenario I was talking about. It is one thing if the guy is breaking the law out of anger and can be reasoned with, it is another if, like several times in the series, you have someone who thinks that because they are the strongest around they should decide the rules or do whatever they want..At least the scions are trained from small to understand the laws and why ithey are like they are but if some idiot who is only good at fighting becomes the best fighter and says teveryone should do as they ssy, then sure, people would gang up and stop him but there could be a lot of damage in the meantime.
Of course, this could be somewhat mitigated if everyone were to be FPSS so that they are all equal in PL and then you have a law keeping force dedicated to the legitimate government I guess, though I am not sure how it would look. Iguess it depends on how advanced we think the exiles are in social studies?
Anyways, what I am most worried about are two things. The first is that we would try to change too much too fast and the civil disorder it might cause if we leave the exile society as a whole choose course.
The second, more selfish and perhaps more relevant reason is that Berra had been working towards making the Goku lore authority more prominent and to consolidate power in that position. As we are the next one to benefit from that... Why the heck are we trying to discard a system that would ensure it will become easier for us to enact any changes we think will benefit our society and help ensure we survive any future problem and change it for one which would give power to a mayority that is fight obsessed to the point that it looks down and sometimes discriminates proffessions such as seers and sorcerers that are fundsmental to how our society works, that looked down on Kakara because she does not like fighting? Pushing for a more democratic process when we can under the current system enact changes that we know will benefit society but society is too dumb to want seems like shooting ourselves in the foot. We can still change those things to make the system more fair in the future but a majority rule when the majority's belief are unfair would still make an unfair government.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Note: This is exactly how the Diarchy the Saiyans have started, with Garla deciding she should be in charge because she was the strongest around. The system you are defending is the end result of the very thing you are trying to prevent. How does that make sense?
Again, so long as everybody is onboard with the "no SSJ2" idea, which they should be due to the boogeyman status of The Enemy, all we need is a team of trusted FPSSJs with instant transmission. Hell, the Patriarch/Lord/Scion system is basically that, but chosen via bloodcraft instead of social consensus and training. Hell, we can even have the seers look at who would be good for the role if we want to keep that around for some godforsaken reason.
- Location
- Italy
that's not that far off from my "ssj knight order" idea.
Generally speaking, exile society is NOT ready for democracy.
It just isn't. There would be discrimination of sorcerers and seers to start with, and we need a STRONG central authority because we'll need to take rapid and sometimes controversial decision in the future.
Now, just as how not all saiyans reach their cap even if they could, I imagine not all saiyans would go for FPSSJ even if they could, and of those who do many would likely not train their skills to a level that actually makes them a peer of the current royalty... but it's obvious that we'd get hundreds of ssj in time, at the very least.
That can be a problem.
I think we need a few things if we allow other people to become SSJ: first, they NEED to be registered/kept count of (easy, they could only safely transform under our wards).
THEN we NEED seers and sorcerers to vet them. Are they planning to use those powers to rebel? To kill? to start a civil war?
If yes, we'll HAVE to stop them from transforming in the first place, probably by denying them the right to train under the wards, and sealing their powers away if they push us too much.
Then, we should also give STRONG incentives to those saiyans to work directly for us, knight order style. Better training, high-level sparring partners, the ears of the Lords, discounted price on senzu beans...
Finally... exiles are about to figure out the fusion dance, and we know the Spirit Saiyan. If we could share those techniques with people we ABSOLUTELY TRUST, they'd be strong cards to use against rebel SSJs.
They have to be people we completely trust, though. the fusion of two FPSSJ would be far beyond what anyone except another fusion or spirit saiyan could face on the planet, and it might actually break the wards.
...secondary though, but... the fusion technique might actually be useful for sorcerers too. Fusing two different pools of magic knowledge could allow the fusion to come up with a better ward scheme, for example.
Does Dandeer do Instant Transmission? I am half tempted to ask if we could wish her out here to face the incoming hordes of the wider world. Hopefully Namekian magic could offer a counter to her if she is caught alone and without any environmental preparation. The rebellion would have somewhat of an easier time if she wasn't around to coordinate stuff. Teleportation seems easier than a direct confrontation, so I would think that the dragon would have an easier time of it. It would also be handy to have a sealing master to help us with this invasion stuff and The Enemy, which might just maybe be a larger concern to her than we are if she is effectively trapped out here.
It makes sense because one possible outcome is not the same as the situation that preceded it. If the current system prevents it, then it prevents it. If that is established then the history is completely irrelevant to the issue. If it has not been established then such must be demonstrated directly.
- Location
- Italy
very unlikely. It's a pretty advanced ki techniques requiring either a special "intuition", or pretty advanced mathematical knowledge/ability.
Dandeer min-maxed magic. I doubt she'd know advanced ki techniques.
At MOST I could see her raising her raw power and going FPSSJ, but she'd mostly do it to be able to keep up with other FPSSJ speed, and to boost her spells with more ki.
Kakara's threat could provide the "need".
On the other hand.. she'd have to train, or try to abuse the Zenkai. Her pride might not allow that, or she might go back to the "magic is the hammer to deal with all the nails/problems"
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
States having a monopoly on force is arguably the bedrock of modern nations. If we come up with a system that does not guarantee a monopoly on force, then that system only lasts until someone else decides they want to be in charge and tears it down. If you can come up with a nicer way of achieving this monopoly then great, but it's a prerequisite of any actual system of governance that you try and put together. To do otherwise just leaves you building sandcastles - I'm sure they're very pretty, but they only last until the tide comes in.
Having said that, since the wider galaxy seems to have been knuckling down and training in the Exile's absence, maybe we could investigate how other nation states achieve this, in a galaxy where anyone can be a planet-killer if they're willing to put the work in? This might well be a solved problem.
Entirely unrelated wish idea: for Dandeer's sorcerous ability/abilities to be entirely removed and bestowed upon Kakara. I'm not one of the people who really wanted to be a sorcerer, but it does seem like it would be a two-for-one deal...
Having said that, since the wider galaxy seems to have been knuckling down and training in the Exile's absence, maybe we could investigate how other nation states achieve this, in a galaxy where anyone can be a planet-killer if they're willing to put the work in? This might well be a solved problem.
Entirely unrelated wish idea: for Dandeer's sorcerous ability/abilities to be entirely removed and bestowed upon Kakara. I'm not one of the people who really wanted to be a sorcerer, but it does seem like it would be a two-for-one deal...
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- Location
- Italy
agreed. We might allow other super saiyans, but the point is that we NEED to have control over them somehow.
Having them be personally loyal to us, or kept in check by the OTHER super saiyans, is a possibility, but it STILL requires some restrictions/check on who's allowed to achieve and train the forms, and who isn't.
As a reminder, the general galaxy doesn't... believe, in training.
You're either born a ki mutant, or you're not. the MUTANTS can train (inefficiently, by exiles standard, as they only train the "physical" portion of ki), but general belief is that normal people can't achieve that kind of power.
Exiles and Namekians are basically the only exceptions we know of, and maybe Yardratians depending on how they're portrayed here.
I'm willing to try it, but I don't expect it to work. Magic seems to be tied to the soul, I don't think it's really something you can transfer.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Was that what the Exiles think, or did Bassoon tell us that? Because the wider galaxy's PLs have been notably higher than they were back in the Z Fighters' day, which indicates that they've figured something out. (If you forced me at gunpoint to make a guess, I'd say they figured out that certain kinds of training help, but not the spiritual elements, so they're grasping blindly.)
- Location
- Italy
I THINK that's what we got from interrogating the alien scouts.
Basically, Alien tech has gotten better, but generally speaking the fastest ships they knew of are still not up to the level of Bulma's spaceships.
About training, the level HAS gotten higher, partly thanks to Frieza. He collected all the strong guys before facing the enemy (alone).
I think the running theory (or at least mine) was that he did it to raise the threat level of the universe, because he wanted to create a universe fit for a saiyan to find challenges in.
He KNOWS that Saiyans have the potential to reach and surpass him, and to surpass the Enemy, so I think that was a backup plan in case he failed to kill the Enemy, so that, at some point, one or more saiyans would start to face the challenges he left behind, going from the strong but relatively common FPSSJ level to the SSJ3 to the gods.
on that note: the WEAKEST of the Arcosian Lords should be not far off from FPSSJ level. The strongest could presumably be a decent threat to Fat Bu I imagine, so probably close to peak SSJ2.
Other than speculation about Frieza, I think we were also told by the scout that mutants have learned how to train, trying to copy the earthlings, but only focused on the physical aspect of things. I might remember wrong though
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
The only school of freedom is freedom. If they are not ready for democracy, and they are continued to be denied it, then they will never be ready.
Again, none of that requires a monarchy.
The system was, and continues to be, some randoms deciding they should be in charge because they're the strongest thanks to accident of blood.
Also, the system is collapsing right now. House Senzu has demonstrated an ability to rebel, even though they are actually loyalists no one knows that. That means the monopoly on force, which is always actually an illusion enforced by the perceived impossibility of defeating the system, is gone. Right now, the only thing preventing the strongest asshole from taking over is that the Strongest Asshole is already in charge and her name is Dandeer.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Sure? It's not like most modern-day nations are monarchies in ways that matter. It just means that whatever alternative structure you propose, it needs some way of ensuring that it is
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I have already outlined ways that could be done.