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Dragon Ball: After the End

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To clarify, the alien hasn't resolved to turn you in. He has noted that Bassoon is probably the target of the manhunt, and therefore will likely accept a massive premium. He's noting leverage, not engineering a sell-out. I'll edit the update to clarify once I reach a computer.
Aranfan said:
[] No, you hate Dandeer for her mind control. Your not going to start dabbling in it yourself

@PoptartProdigy

Is this a valid write in?
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I don't moderate write-ins here.
 
KnightDisciple said:
Welp, this update confirms that trying to donate Ki mid-fight earlier would have ended poorly. Still not sure entirely why it is doing this, but, good to know.

I'm not 100% opposed to any shade of mind control ever, but I'm also leery of diving right into that right now.
Further, I think it would probably be good to not try doing that without warning Bassoon, in case it throws him for a loop (sort of like how our Ki donation threw him for a loop), or becomes more obvious than it should be.

Also, the hypocrisy of "well it's okay if we do mind control, but we hates Dandeer forever for her mind control" is hilarious.
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Our mind control is impermanent, and ends the second we stop concentrating on it. Dandeer's is permanent and cannot be broken without active effort. It's not something we can just 'This person is now under my control forever and must consult me before making any decisions.' over and over until we have all of existence as our slaves, directly or by proxy. That's the difference.
 
Ah right, I forgot to check my quotebox.
PoptartProdigy said:
discrete
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I imagine you worked hard on your editing pass, because this is the only typo I found. Good job!
PoptartProdigy said:
It feels like glass shattering. A barrier you never knew existed gives way, and you feel...something...tumbling along towards the alien at great speed. And then...
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Ooh. That sounds super interesting. Who put that barrier on us, and why?
KnightDisciple said:
Also, the hypocrisy of "well it's okay if we do mind control, but we hates Dandeer forever for her mind control" is hilarious.
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That really isn't why we hate her. It's more the attitude toward murder and pseudomurder.
(I don't particularly hate her at the moment, either - but the Sealing and the Sorceror Reveal did provoke it for a while each.)
 
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Aranfan said:
I more meant, would opposition to Dandeer give this a multiplier of any sort?
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...ooh. Ooh, that's clever. Yes, "A Cause," explicitly weights against aiding Dandeer, and being like her in even a small way would be close enough to trigger that a little bit. Not the full weighting, but enough to cancel out. That write-in, I will give equal weight to doing as Dazarel says.
 
On the one hand, mind control could be pretty useful for dealing with Dandeer's mental sealing bullcrap, and more subtle uses (think something like suggestion rather than outright control) could be a helpful in opening negotiations with people who would otherwise refuse to listen to reason. On the other hand it has the potential to be used very immorally and Kakara's inevitable realization that she's using tools (and potentially methods) uncomfortably similar to Dandeer's isn't likely to sit well with her.

Of course, there's nothing requiring that we use mind control regularly or immorally, but having it as a tool we can use makes it a lot more tempting to do so than if we couldn't do it at all. That said, more options in the toolbox means more ways to get around problems, which is ultimately a plus in my book - I'd rather mind control someone than murder them, for example.

I'm leaning towards yes, but my biggest reservation is how hard Dazarel seems to be pushing for this. Maybe its just rational self-interest, after all, he dies if we die and there's a big bad god in the afterlife who's taken a rather dim view of his actions thus far. But then as he mentioned, it is unheard of for anyone with the Kanassan Sight to have other psychic powers as well, so he probably could just have gotten away with just 'helping' us to better use our sight. That, along with how he rather unsubtly encourages us to actually make use of mind control for a relatively minor problem makes me think there's something in it for him that we don't know about.

Now, Dazarel and Kakara may have been bonding recently, and he almost certainly isn't working towards killing Kakara, if only out of self interest, but let's not forget that this treacherous little bastard sold Kakara out to Dandeer at the first opportunity, which is a pretty significant factor for why she's in this mess in the first place.

TL;DR: Mind control is useful and can be used in non-immoral ways, so why not have the skill? But we need to keep a close eye on Dazarel, because there's probably something non-obvious in it for him if we do pursue MC.

[ ][x1.1] Yes. New abilities are a tool, and you need all the tools you can get. Dandeer specializes in sealing minds; you could use every tool you can lay hands on to counter her in that arena.
-[ ] Consult with Bassoon first so he doesn't get taken by surprise, if he's alright with being ripped off (and that's all the alien seems to be doing), then just let it go.
-[ ] Keep a close eye on Dazarel, he's shown himself to be treacherous before and has been pretty heavy handed about encouraging you to pursue this, so he might get some sort of non-obvious benefit from you pursuing mind control.
 
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I am torn on the issue to be honest. On one hand, since psychic abilities seem to work by willing things to happen, there is a chance that becoming proficient in the mind arts would allowus to break other types of mind control, such as Dandeer's or that of other psychics. That is reason enoughto learn this since we are looking for ways to free our people from Dandeer and learning to attack people's minds seem like the obvious way to break mind control.

On the other hand, this guy is not yet planning to sell us out, just noting thathe could get Bassoon to pay him more to keep quiet. If we attempt to mind control him and he later breaks free then depending on when he does he might just give the information out of anger which might be troublesome if we are still on the planet. For the mind control to be useful it needs a prolonged effect which is similar to Dandeer's thing.

Now, what I am to say now may be a bit controversial but I think I have a compromise. We are trying to get to Namek to save it so the means we employ should be decided by giving priority to said goal.

This guy wants more money. Does Bassoon actually have enough to pay him and buy the fuel? If the answer is that silence money plus fuel is more than Bassoon can pay, then we have to silence this guy either by a) killing him (not something we can do as per protector trait) b) kidnapping him until ee have the fuel (impractical since we only have 1 body), c) threaten him (obvious bluff since he can tell the refugees as soon as we leave the bar) or d) use psychic powers. For the psychic powers we can outright order him not to (too much like mind control) or leave a suggestion that no, we probably are not the guy the refugees are looking for since he doesn't know for sure yet.

On the other hand, if Bassoon does have enough money, even if he ends up broke afterwards, I say we pay him. We can make more money with odd jobs along the road as soon as we are out of sight of the refugees. We should still keep checking his thoughts to see if he does intend to keep quiet if we pay him. If he doesn't, we could try to make the order for him to keep his part of the deal. Kind of like using mind control powers as a geass or magical contract to keep people honest after reaching an agreement with words. So something like:

[] Inform Bassoon about what the guy is thinking about. Ask him if he thinks he has enough money to pay the premium.
-[] If he doesn't, try to use your powers to convince the dealer that he has the wrong guy. If he does, continue with the negotiation.
-[] Read his thoughts as the negotiation goes on to help Bassoon haggle by checking what the smuggler thinks about what he is saying.
-[] Once the deal is done, check his mind to see if he intends to sell us out to the refugees despite being paid not to. If he does, plant the suggestion that he honors the deal.

@PoptartProdigy

Edit: Just to be clear, I am not opposed to learning the skill but for something like mind control I would rather we practice on informed volunteers. We could probably convince a few Namekians to let us practice on them if we save their planet.
 
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Not gonna lie, we're already playing Dragonball on Hard Mode with Kakara's "no-kill" ability. Also writing off the option of telepathically nudging other people's thoughts when we actually have that ability (!) is escalating to Insane Mode in my opinion.

It's an understandable and respectable self-imposed limitation, sure. But we're in a pretty good position to make sure Kakara uses her powers only for good, or in dire situations, the kind of situations where she might otherwise be forced to kill someone or to eat absolutely horrible consequences of the kind that turn the quest inside out and make everyone miserable.

Like, the reason Dandeer is terrible isn't that she ever influences people's minds. If the only significant thing she'd done was sealing her husband we wouldn't have good cause to hate her- because her husband was an abusive psycho. On the other hand there's the sealing of Jaffur, and more recently the revelation that she slaughtered thousands out of some bizarre personal desire to Be the Best, and of course Kais only know what her recent magical attack did.

But all those things would still be wrong if she'd found some other way to do them without influencing people's thoughts or altering their minds.

I'd rather Kakara think in terms of "Dandeer is evil because she uses her powers for evil" than in terms of "Dandeer is evil because her powers are evil."

Cariyaga said:
Personally, I want to practice mind controlling and ki-infusing animals. Maybe learn to do multiple at once, go full Skitter.
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Problem: most of our opponents can casually generate a 'kaboom' aura on par with a nuclear bomb. I'm not sure we can infuse enough ki into animals to make them survivable enough to be relevant on the battlefield. Plus, the biggest single things Skitter gets out of controlling animal swarms are unorthodox attack vectors and expanded situational awareness.

Kakara has to pull punches to avoid splattering the planet, and she has a ki sense that is generally regarded as hax. She doesn't really need either of those abilities.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
Not gonna lie, we're already playing Dragonball on Hard Mode with Kakara's "no-kill" ability. Also writing off the option of telepathically nudging other people's thoughts when we actually have that ability (!) is escalating to Insane Mode in my opinion.
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No one said being moral was easy. But we chose Kakara because we wanted to be the moral one, even though it would be hard.
 
KnightDisciple said:
Welp, this update confirms that trying to donate Ki mid-fight earlier would have ended poorly. Still not sure entirely why it is doing this, but, good to know.

I'm not 100% opposed to any shade of mind control ever, but I'm also leery of diving right into that right now.
Further, I think it would probably be good to not try doing that without warning Bassoon, in case it throws him for a loop (sort of like how our Ki donation threw him for a loop), or becomes more obvious than it should be.

Also, the hypocrisy of "well it's okay if we do mind control, but we hates Dandeer forever for her mind control" is hilarious.
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That's not why we hate dandeer though? Ooc or IC. In order of our gaining the informstion, she:
-Personality wiped her husband
-Locked her son in his own head
-Policed her other son for thoughtcrime
-Is a terrible ruler, which leads to a lot of unnecesary suffering
-Murdered thousands of people
-Framed her son
-Mind controlled our dad
-tried to kill off defenseless prisoners
-went after the planet with mind control
And while the mind control was definitely a negative I think most of us disliked her well before #7 came up, much less #9. It's also a fairly major false equivalancy to equate what Dazarel is suggesting and what Dandeer did, but admittedly it might not appear so andPR is important.
Aranfan said:
[] No, you hate Dandeer for her mind control. Your not going to start dabbling in it yourself

@PoptartProdigy

Is this a valid write in?
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To Quoque much?
Aranfan said:
No one said being moral was easy. But we chose Kakara because we wanted to be the moral one, even though it would be hard.
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This is fair! However, a choice being hard doesn't actually imply its the morally correct one at all.




I think the strongest reason to vote no here is appearances; our reputation with Bassoon is, in fact, important, and he's stuck with an outside veiw of us formed over a few days, there's a not-implausible risk that mind manipulation will harm our impression. Having the abilities will also make it harder in the future for us to be trusted by some people.
Overall, I find this sort of argument convincing and a serious downside to learning this skill. However, this is somewhat mitigated as a downside of learning because if they can't trust us not to be manipulating people negatively mentally, they also can't trust us to tell the truth. I don't think these downsides are enough to make up for how helpful having psychic powers will be for us in enabling sophont flourishing.

E:spelling
 
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Alright, folks, the vote is open! In addition to the canned options in the update, we have some write-ins which escalated to my attention.

[ ](x1.1) No, you hate Dandeer for her mind control. Your not going to start dabbling in it yourself.

Essentially, a different flavor of, "no," one compelling enough to Kakara that it receives equal vote weighting to the Ambitious-weighted options. This is in addition to the basic, "no," as it has meaningfully different motivations. However, the basic, "no," option is not going to gain vote weighting.

[ ](x1.1) Inform Bassoon about what the guy is thinking about. Ask him if he thinks he has enough money to pay the premium. If he doesn't, try to use your powers to convince the dealer that he has the wrong guy. If he does, continue with the negotiation. Read his thoughts as the negotiation goes on to help Bassoon haggle by checking what the smuggler thinks about what he is saying. Once the deal is done, check his mind to see if he intends to sell us out to the refugees despite being paid not to. If he does, plant the suggestion that he honors the deal.

A very involved course of action, complete with contingencies. Still signals willingness to learn greater mind control powers, so still gains vote weighting. Essentially declines to do mind control just 'cause, but rather does so only if you cross a certain point of practical necessity.

[ ](x1.1) Inform Bassoon of what he's thinking.
-[ ] Use this to sound out Bassoon's position on the subject
—[ ] If positive or mostly neutral, continue as yes
—[ ] if strongly negative, proceed without manipulating the merchant's mind

Makes the decision contingent on Bassoon's approval, apathy, or disapproval.
 
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[X] Inform Bassoon about what the guy is thinking about. Ask him if he thinks he has enough money to pay the premium. If he doesn't, try to use your powers to convince the dealer that he has the wrong guy. If he does, continue with the negotiation. Read his thoughts as the negotiation goes on to help Bassoon haggle by checking what the smuggler thinks about what he is saying. Once the deal is done, check his mind to see if he intends to sell us out to the refugees despite being paid not to. If he does, plant the suggestion that he honors the deal.

@PoptartProdigy the [x1.1] is gonna look like tasking to the tally scripts. it might make tallying harder.
 
[X](x1.1) Inform Bassoon about what the guy is thinking about. Ask him if he thinks he has enough money to pay the premium. If he doesn't, try to use your powers to convince the dealer that he has the wrong guy. If he does, continue with the negotiation. Read his thoughts as the negotiation goes on to help Bassoon haggle by checking what the smuggler thinks about what he is saying. Once the deal is done, check his mind to see if he intends to sell us out to the refugees despite being paid not to. If he does, plant the suggestion that he honors the deal.

[X](x1.1) Yes. New abilities are a tool, and you need all the tools you can get. Dandeer specializes in sealing minds; you could use every tool you can lay hands on to counter her in that arena.


Ah, oops, just missed the time for my write in. Any chance this could get added anyway @PoptartProdigy ?
[X](x1.1) Inform Bassoon of what he's thinking.
-[X] Use this to sound out Bassoon's position on the subject
—[X] If positive or mostly neutral, continue as yes
—[X] if strongly negative, proceed without manipulating the merchant's mind
 
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DarknessSmiles said:
[X] Inform Bassoon about what the guy is thinking about. Ask him if he thinks he has enough money to pay the premium. If he doesn't, try to use your powers to convince the dealer that he has the wrong guy. If he does, continue with the negotiation. Read his thoughts as the negotiation goes on to help Bassoon haggle by checking what the smuggler thinks about what he is saying. Once the deal is done, check his mind to see if he intends to sell us out to the refugees despite being paid not to. If he does, plant the suggestion that he honors the deal.

@PoptartProdigy the [x1.1] is gonna look like tasking to the tally scripts. it might make tallying harder.
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Oh, right. Serves me right to drop off the map so long. That's a good point; use parentheses instead.
QTesseract said:
[X][x1.1] Inform Bassoon about what the guy is thinking about. Ask him if he thinks he has enough money to pay the premium. If he doesn't, try to use your powers to convince the dealer that he has the wrong guy. If he does, continue with the negotiation. Read his thoughts as the negotiation goes on to help Bassoon haggle by checking what the smuggler thinks about what he is saying. Once the deal is done, check his mind to see if he intends to sell us out to the refugees despite being paid not to. If he does, plant the suggestion that he honors the deal.

[X][x1.1] Yes. New abilities are a tool, and you need all the tools you can get. Dandeer specializes in sealing minds; you could use every tool you can lay hands on to counter her in that arena.


Ah, oops, just missed the time for my write in. Any chance this could get added anyway @PoptartProdigy ?
[X] Inform Bassoon of what he's thinking.
-[X] Use this to sound out Bassoon's position on the subject
—[X] If positive or mostly neutral, continue as yes
—[X] if strongly negative, proceed without manipulating the merchant's mind
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This time, yes, but in the future please try to stay on that. My formatting is now in the unlock post.
 
[X][Ask] Dazarel: Could this ability [mind control] be used on animals?
[X][Ask] Kakara: Does she think it would be possible to Ki-infuse animals to high power level, if Dazarel answers affirmatively?
 
[X](x1.1) Yes. New abilities are a tool, and you need all the tools you can get. Dandeer specializes in sealing minds; you could use every tool you can lay hands on to counter her in that arena.

[X](x1.1) Inform Bassoon about what the guy is thinking about. Ask him if he thinks he has enough money to pay the premium. If he doesn't, try to use your powers to convince the dealer that he has the wrong guy. If he does, continue with the negotiation. Read his thoughts as the negotiation goes on to help Bassoon haggle by checking what the smuggler thinks about what he is saying. Once the deal is done, check his mind to see if he intends to sell us out to the refugees despite being paid not to. If he does, plant the suggestion that he honors the deal.
 
[X](x1.1) Inform Bassoon about what the guy is thinking about. Ask him if he thinks he has enough money to pay the premium. If he doesn't, try to use your powers to convince the dealer that he has the wrong guy. If he does, continue with the negotiation. Read his thoughts as the negotiation goes on to help Bassoon haggle by checking what the smuggler thinks about what he is saying. Once the deal is done, check his mind to see if he intends to sell us out to the refugees despite being paid not to. If he does, plant the suggestion that he honors the deal.
 
[x](x1.1) Inform Bassoon about what the guy is thinking about. Ask him if he thinks he has enough money to pay the premium. If he doesn't, try to use your powers to convince the dealer that he has the wrong guy. If he does, continue with the negotiation. Read his thoughts as the negotiation goes on to help Bassoon haggle by checking what the smuggler thinks about what he is saying. Once the deal is done, check his mind to see if he intends to sell us out to the refugees despite being paid not to. If he does, plant the suggestion that he honors the deal.

Reposting vote cause mobile editing sucks.
 
[X](x1.1) Inform Bassoon about what the guy is thinking about. Ask him if he thinks he has enough money to pay the premium. If he doesn't, try to use your powers to convince the dealer that he has the wrong guy. If he does, continue with the negotiation. Read his thoughts as the negotiation goes on to help Bassoon haggle by checking what the smuggler thinks about what he is saying. Once the deal is done, check his mind to see if he intends to sell us out to the refugees despite being paid not to. If he does, plant the suggestion that he honors the deal.
 
[X](x1.1) Yes. New abilities are a tool, and you need all the tools you can get. Dandeer specializes in sealing minds; you could use every tool you can lay hands on to counter her in that arena.
 
[X](x1.1) Inform Bassoon about what the guy is thinking about. Ask him if he thinks he has enough money to pay the premium. If he doesn't, try to use your powers to convince the dealer that he has the wrong guy. If he does, continue with the negotiation. Read his thoughts as the negotiation goes on to help Bassoon haggle by checking what the smuggler thinks about what he is saying. Once the deal is done, check his mind to see if he intends to sell us out to the refugees despite being paid not to. If he does, plant the suggestion that he honors the deal.
 
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