- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
[X] Be good. Pay attention and listen closely.
Gets my vote, for now, at least.
Gets my vote, for now, at least.
Dragon Ball: After the End
- Location
- Somewhere I shouldn't be
[X] Be good. Pay attention and listen closely.
I caught the DBZA reference too. Almost fell out of my chair at work trying not to laugh out loud.
I caught the DBZA reference too. Almost fell out of my chair at work trying not to laugh out loud.
[X] Zone out. What's the harm? (Pick a topic. The general consensus and tone of discussion regarding said topic on the thread from now until vote close determines Kakara's thoughts on said topic)
-[X] About Lady Vegeta.
The QM gives us a chance to hash out where exactly we stand on a variety of subjects, and the players ignore it? What madness is this!
Though I'm supporting the "mercy" camp myself. She still needs to be punished, obviously.
Also, been wondering if we intend to reveal our vision on what's going on with Jaffur and/or our connection to Gohan. And whether that second one is in anyway "normal" for a Seer.
Admittedly, part of this would be that Goku and Gotenks didn't have much experience with the form, and gaining the needed experience would be incredibly hard, considering it's downsides.
One thing I'll note is that SSJ3 might be easier with a stronger base body, such as the Oozaru form. Which, if you consider my "multiple transformation lines" theory, would suggest that the "SSJ4"/Primal Saiyan form would be the easiest to use it in, possibly to the point it'd be possible to achieve a FPSSJ3 state.
-[X] About Lady Vegeta.
The QM gives us a chance to hash out where exactly we stand on a variety of subjects, and the players ignore it? What madness is this!
Though I'm supporting the "mercy" camp myself. She still needs to be punished, obviously.
Also, been wondering if we intend to reveal our vision on what's going on with Jaffur and/or our connection to Gohan. And whether that second one is in anyway "normal" for a Seer.
Actually, all three Super Saiyan transformations are draining, but SSJ3 is just especially bad. It's part of why Goku abandoned training those forms to focus on his base form and the original transformation after the fight with Beerus.
Admittedly, part of this would be that Goku and Gotenks didn't have much experience with the form, and gaining the needed experience would be incredibly hard, considering it's downsides.
Same here.
One thing I'll note is that SSJ3 might be easier with a stronger base body, such as the Oozaru form. Which, if you consider my "multiple transformation lines" theory, would suggest that the "SSJ4"/Primal Saiyan form would be the easiest to use it in, possibly to the point it'd be possible to achieve a FPSSJ3 state.
Macros
omnisciently vague councilman
- Location
- Dirac Sea
Honestly, that seems like a late addition from Super. Because SSJ1, at least, wasn't really draining the first time it was used, and SSJ2 certainly didn't look like it was either. Goku and Gotenks actually had experience with the third form (they trained it, instead of unlocking it mid-fight), and that still didn't help much.
- Location
- Australia
Goku went from being 17 and 18's inferior to fighting and nearly killing Cell after he removed the drain from Super Saiyan.
What is?
No, they were always draining. That was part of why FPSSJ was such a big deal: no more drainage.
Goku had no experience with the form in a living body, and Gotenks had, what, a few days to learn it? And after that, how much time did they spend mastering it, considering it's downsides make that hard?
Macros
omnisciently vague councilman
- Location
- Dirac Sea
Not really, no. While better energy efficiency was a nice side-effect, if that was the main benefit, then Vegeta and Trunks would have had a close enough power level at the beginning of the fight... which they did not.
Still better than transforming mid-combat for the first time.
Vegeta and Trunks never got FPSSJ during the cell saga. If they got it after then we never heard about it.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
His point I believe is that, if FPSSJ was 'basically the same, but more efficient' you'd expect them to not be outclassed from the get-go.
*goes cross-eyes* What?
I repeat myself.
Well, besides the fact that I was using it show that the Super Saiyan state was draining, that's the literal explanation for why FPSSJ is so good: the drain and stress on the body is reduced to basically nothing.
And I don't get why he's talking about transforming in the middle of battle, when I'm talking about achieving mastery of a transformation.
Macros
omnisciently vague councilman
- Location
- Dirac Sea
We're clearly talking past each other at this point, because I really don't get your rebuttal. Once again, if FPSSJ was "only" reducing drain to nothing, then Vegeta and Trunks would fared much better against Cell. At no point do they seem to run out of steam either.
Because the fact that they were able to do that, without any prior experience with the form, and finish the fight, in one case going as far as turning it off, then on back again, shows that if there is a drain, it's really minor.
Because the fact that they were able to do that, without any prior experience with the form, and finish the fight, in one case going as far as turning it off, then on back again, shows that if there is a drain, it's really minor.
What on earth are you talking about? SSj 3? Because it's canon that it's super draining. Vegeta and Goku going super Saiyan for the first time? News flash. It's canon that it's draining. Just not draining enough to affect anything but battles that would go on for hours at a time. FPSSJ let gohan and goku stay in super saiyan form for days on end. Even in their sleep. Simply because all the power that went towards maintaining it didn't.
And I just reread your post to make sure I didn't miss anything. News flash, Trunks and Vegeta don't have FPSSJ. And it was apparently a big deal considering vegeta's reaction. So yes the drain is more then minor.
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Macros
omnisciently vague councilman
- Location
- Dirac Sea
Well, yeah? This whole conversation was about SSJ3, and how it seems to be fundamentally different from the other forms.
So... you actually agree that the drain doesn't change anything in an actual battle, then?
Think of the forms as over clocking the body. SSJ doesn't over clock it to much so they can go several hours with it. SSJ2 over clocks it more so the time in it is shorter then SSJ. SSJ3 over clocks it so much and drains so much power to do so that you may have to drop out mid battle. FPSSJ refines the process to where the least amount of energy needed it can be used. Now they can stay days in the FPSSJ state. Even if they are fighting.
It does change shit in the battle. Because all that energy going towards maintaining it? Could be used in actual fighting. What FPSSJ does is increase the efficiency of the energy used to maintain it to the point where almost none is used. Now they have all that free energy to use in a fight.
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Macros
omnisciently vague councilman
- Location
- Dirac Sea
Citation needed. While SSJ2 has little screen-time, it doesn't appears to be harder to maintain than SSJ without prior training. Even assuming that some power is needed to maintain the transformation, that would still make SSJ3 somewhat different, since there's a point where one apparently can't do it anymore, while other forms only detransformed when knocked out.
Okay, but in that case, it's not really a drain, it's a constant power cost. And rather than power, I got the feeling that maintaining the transformation required concentration (and maybe anger) that FPSSJ no longer need
You do realize your arguing against canon stated facts? I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish because what you are arguing is objectively wrong.
FPSSJ explicitly allowed gohan and goku to stay days in SSJ when before people would power up and drop out as needed. SSJ2 would use even more power. And SSJ3 uses even more. See goku dropping out of it mid battle with kid buu. Hell it even drained the time he could stay on earth when he was dead.
Macros
omnisciently vague councilman
- Location
- Dirac Sea
All I have to go with is the manga, true, but at no point is this stated, or showed. So I'm left with interpretation of what we get to see onscreen.
Once again, there's no evidence the first part is true, and the second part is why I'm wondering if SSJ3 is really a true new transformation, rather than an SSJ2 upgrade à la USSJ.
EDIT : okay, at this point, I think I'm not convincing you, you're not convincing me and we're boring everyone else. Let's agree to disagree, 'kay?
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It's mentioned in the supplementary books, chapter 387 and episode 165.
- Location
- Australia
Wasn't it said that after Battle of Gods Goku stopped training SS2 and SS3 for this reason?
I was just going over the update again because it's hella amusing and I wanted to reread it and then I found this:
This seemingly innocuous snippet is potentially rather important unless I'm mistaken. Instant Transmission - the technique that requires high concentration and only a few hundred Saiyans can do - is something we do almost by reflex. That is very impressive by any metric, especially since we only have the skill at Talented. (Based on the text in Turn the Gears, I'd say that our Exceptional Ki Control is responsible.) If we manage to get it up to Exceptional, it might be enough to turn it into a fully reflexive action, giving us an advantage in combat that I don't think anyone else has.
Berra might already be able to do that.
- Location
- Australia
He doesn't have Exceptional Ki Control though, so he might not have enough of a boost in that area for the technique to be truly reflexive.
Quest
The Great One
- Location
- Everywhere
If you watched the new episode with pissed-off!Goku, you'd notice that he's already doing that canonically.
Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
Ok, I know it is not the purpose of the thread but since it is constantly brought up I have to ask, is super actually good? Because after the first few episodes I was severely put off by the low animation quality and I stopped watching but the comments here make it seem like the plot might make up for it after the Battle of Gods equivalent.
Also, since I don't want to go completely off subject; we have met two heirs of other houses around our age. House Mato and house Peat are both very religious but the first is pro-masquerade and the second if against it. Now, on one side, there is the knee jerk reaction of allying with a cult but on the other, as the prime demigod in their pantheon, they would make a good powerbase in theory. However, house Peat has not made the best impression, even if Fennella looks like she would be a good friend. There is also the issue that, while I am generally pro-masquerade (though I don't know about the rest of the thread and my opinión is sibject to change), Mato are isollationists, which is a bit extreme and Peat is against it. Furthermore, Mato are very against reformists. While our goals are still kind of nebulous other tan undo the sealing of Jaffur, that might cause a problem.
So while we might want to start befriending these children now to build a future powerbase, and I will be advocating spending time with them next turn, we might want to make inroads with the other two major clans too. Balor will be hard to I think, since they are against both cult and masquerade. Stauber is the one that looks more promising though being Friends with Fennella might make it hard since they hate hous Peat.
Thus:
Mato: Dillon is a dork. Crush on Fennella, so we can play matchmaker to bring our base together. Very religious so he would respect us. We unnerve him so he might be easier to manipulate. House in general very much against reforms.
Peat: Fennella wants to be our friend. Crush on Dillon, same as above. Religious. House of fanatics and leader is making very concerning moves. Loyalty of the house is in question due to its history.
Stauber: No inroad so far. Goku Loyalists, would make good base. HATES house Peat so friendship with Fennella would make us play mediator on the kid we befriend with her.
Balor: Sensei's house. Anti-masquerade, large history of seers. HATES ancestor cult to the point of violence so any move in favor of the cult will be seen poorly by them. Probably the hardest house to befriend. Might be a good ally if we want to weaken the cult butotherwise...
Senzu: Betarel is FIRST FRIEND. We know they are against the saling and must have a fairly competent sorcerer. Has the very precios resource of Senzu beans and the spaceship we are already making efforst to build inroads BUT they might do something fairly stupid son and as not so secret rebels they won't have political capital. Their deffiance would make an Alliance controversial to say the least. It is also a Vegetan House so yeah, that might also make issues, what with us breaching into their jurisdiction.
Do we have any preference in allies? Any concrete goal that might benefit from them? Granted, being in good relationships with them would be good as a future Lord, but is there any in particular we want to approach in the short term (besides Senzu)?
Also, since I don't want to go completely off subject; we have met two heirs of other houses around our age. House Mato and house Peat are both very religious but the first is pro-masquerade and the second if against it. Now, on one side, there is the knee jerk reaction of allying with a cult but on the other, as the prime demigod in their pantheon, they would make a good powerbase in theory. However, house Peat has not made the best impression, even if Fennella looks like she would be a good friend. There is also the issue that, while I am generally pro-masquerade (though I don't know about the rest of the thread and my opinión is sibject to change), Mato are isollationists, which is a bit extreme and Peat is against it. Furthermore, Mato are very against reformists. While our goals are still kind of nebulous other tan undo the sealing of Jaffur, that might cause a problem.
So while we might want to start befriending these children now to build a future powerbase, and I will be advocating spending time with them next turn, we might want to make inroads with the other two major clans too. Balor will be hard to I think, since they are against both cult and masquerade. Stauber is the one that looks more promising though being Friends with Fennella might make it hard since they hate hous Peat.
Thus:
Mato: Dillon is a dork. Crush on Fennella, so we can play matchmaker to bring our base together. Very religious so he would respect us. We unnerve him so he might be easier to manipulate. House in general very much against reforms.
Peat: Fennella wants to be our friend. Crush on Dillon, same as above. Religious. House of fanatics and leader is making very concerning moves. Loyalty of the house is in question due to its history.
Stauber: No inroad so far. Goku Loyalists, would make good base. HATES house Peat so friendship with Fennella would make us play mediator on the kid we befriend with her.
Balor: Sensei's house. Anti-masquerade, large history of seers. HATES ancestor cult to the point of violence so any move in favor of the cult will be seen poorly by them. Probably the hardest house to befriend. Might be a good ally if we want to weaken the cult butotherwise...
Senzu: Betarel is FIRST FRIEND. We know they are against the saling and must have a fairly competent sorcerer. Has the very precios resource of Senzu beans and the spaceship we are already making efforst to build inroads BUT they might do something fairly stupid son and as not so secret rebels they won't have political capital. Their deffiance would make an Alliance controversial to say the least. It is also a Vegetan House so yeah, that might also make issues, what with us breaching into their jurisdiction.
Do we have any preference in allies? Any concrete goal that might benefit from them? Granted, being in good relationships with them would be good as a future Lord, but is there any in particular we want to approach in the short term (besides Senzu)?
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Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Mato is part of Clan Goku, IIRC.