Voting is open
The spar votes are consolidating, if we want "don't spar" to win we need to consolidate too. I urge all of you to vote for the leading "Don't Spar" plan, reproduced below.


Shhhhh....just let it happen.

The sound of flesh impacting flesh, the grunts, the sudden gasps, the mental disgust as you realize how icky this sounds when read aloud...just let it happen.

Oddball for life.

I like when people vote. Let's punch things, friendly-like!

I bet there's lots of other people sparring!
 
[X] Tell Fennella you'd rather not spar.
-[X] Ask Fennella what's up. Who's that she's trying not to look at?
--[X] Go and ask the frustrated power level what they're doing.
---[X] Drag Fennella with.
 
[X] Tell Fennella you'd like to spar. (0.9x vote weighting)
-[X] Ask Fennella what's up. Who's that she's trying not to look at?
 
[X] Tell Fennella you'd like to spar. (0.9x vote weighting)
-[X] Ask Fennella what's up. Who's that she's trying not to look at?

I wanna fight
 
Front-page reformat has left the planning stages and is now underway. For the next few hours, expect incomplete, nonsensical, or missing features from the front page as I shuffle things around and introduce new elements. Also expect me to drop off the map entirely, save for those moments when I need a break and go chill in somebody else's thread for a moment.
 
How I think Ki Enhancement Works
Not an omake, just analysis

There is in every body a ki network, through which ki circulates. For the wider Galaxy, Battle Power or Power Level (called BPL from here out) is then a measure of Ki Flux in the body. More ki, or faster flow, or better distributed flow throughout the body can all make a person more powerful.

Of course, while the wider galaxy knows how to do ki blasts, they don't know how to optimize any of this beyond whatever the genetic and environmental lottery sees fit to bestow upon any given individual.

Not so for martial artists of Earth and Otherworld. I shall attempt to use this model of a Ki Circulatory Network to explain the various shenaniganry Dragon Ball Martial Artists get up to.

Suppressing one's BPL is obviously a matter of throttling back how much of your ki is flowing, and raising your BPL is increasing how much of your ki is flowing (naturally up to a given maximum). This would be Ki Control in the quest

Ki blasts are also obvious, simply having the ki flow out of the body in a destructive way. Blasts are discrete cut off quantities while beams are more like a water hose spraying water.

Muton Roshi's training with the turtle shell, or the gravity room training is somewhat different and requires more explanation. Like any system designed by evolution, the Ki Circulatory Network is horribly unoptimized, and Mutaito figured out a method by which one can adjust the automatic and subconscious management of ki flow to more optimal arrangements. The Turtle Shells and weighted clothing and the gravity room are all methods of assisting this process.

So what about that incident with Ginyu in Goku's body not being able to get his BPL nearly as high? I posit that the methods of the Mutaito derived schools include some sort of concious control over how your ki circulatory network distributes your ki. Dancing is different from brick laying is different from feats of pure strength is different from digesting is different from fighting is different from gymnastics. Which places in your body have priority on getting ki will influence which of these things you are better at. Thus part of Mutatio derived Martial Arts schools is influencing consciously how the ki network distributes ki throughout the body.

Kaio-Ken is increasing the rate of flow through the network. As mentioned in the show, this is extremely delicate and while it gives enormous boosts it comes with equally enormous stresses on the body. The Ki Circulatory Network is designed for a certain rate of flow, and increasing it is something that it has trouble handling. It is possible to mitigate these stresses with good enough Ki Control and Distribution control, which is how Goku is able to master x2 and then up to x10 without any of the usual danger. "Kaio-Ken Times X" simply means your ki is flowing X times faster than normal.

Super Saiyan would depend on which system you're using. If it's a multiplier, then it's probably a well of additional power. We are using Bringer of Death's system, so it's probably a second Ki Circulatory Network. The Base Cap increases are a result of how these networks aren't completely independent since it's the same body, and FPSSJ is achieving the same kind of control over the second network as you have over your base network.

I have not considered deeply how SSJ2/3/4 would work in this model, and I've been stumped trying to figure out how Roshi's Bulking/ASSJ/USSJ work in this model.


I have made an updated version of this based on discussion with Bommelom, go to that one instead.
 
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For those interested in the process of the front-page revamp, I'm introducing tabs to my repertoire. Problem: I don't actually know how those work. If you do want to follow along, check the front-page to observe me learn how the hell all those tabs translate into something user-friendly, by playing with them until something readable falls out.
 
So what about that incident with Ginyu in Goku's body not being able to get his BPL nearly as high? I posit that the methods of the Mutaito derived schools include some sort of concious control over how your ki circulatory network distributes your ki. Dancing is different from brick laying is different from feats of pure strength is different from digesting is different from fighting is different from gymnastics. Which places in your body have priority on getting ki will influence which of these things you are better at. Thus part of Mutatio derived Martial Arts schools is influencing consciously how the ki network distributes ki throughout the body.
Once again, I'll note that while Ginyu had problems with using Goku's body, Goku had problem's using Ginyu's power too, so it's not like the galactic fighters didn't know how to use their own power. Either they just had very differents methods of accessing power than Goku or Saiyan bodies are very different from the any body previously used by Ginyu.
I have not considered deeply how SSJ2/3/4 would work in this model, and I've been stumped trying to figure out how Roshi's Bulking/ASSJ/USSJ work in this model.
Couldn't ASSJ/USSJ/Roshi's Bulking be some kinda variant of the Kaio-Ken, where instead of increasing the rate of flow you artifically increase the "size/width" of your "ki veins" to more than their natural "size"?
 
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Once again, I'll note that while Ginyu had problems with using Goku's body, Goku had problem's using Ginyu's power too, so it's not like the galactic fighters didn't know how to use their own power.

True. But my model explains this. Goku's BPL is a result of full utilization of his Ki, including distribution control. Ginyu's body was alien to Goku, so he would have no idea how to correctly manage his new ki flow. Meanwhile, with Ginyu he doesn't know any of the tricks Goku uses to eke out every last drop of efficiency from his body.

Edit: Remember, Goku was complaining to himself how it was harder to use his ki, while Ginyu was just unable to get his BPL as high as Goku had.

Couldn't ASSJ/USSJ/Roshi's Bulking be some kinda variant of the Kaio-Ken, were instead of increasing the rate of flow you artifically increase the "size/width" of your "ki veins" to more than their natural size?

Yes. Yes it could. So instead of increasing the flow rate it increases the cross sectional area. Since this is Ki we don't know if there's any sort of pressure relationship between flow rate and cross sectional area, so if we say there isn't then this would work to explain the power increase.

Edit: Or if we want to keep a pressure relationship we can say that Roshi/Vegeta/Trunks are both increasing Cross Sectional Area and increasing the flow rate to compensate. In which case it really related to the Kaio-Ken.
 
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[X] Tell Fennella you'd rather not spar.
-[X] Ask Fennella what's up. Who's that she's trying not to look at?
--[X] Go and ask the frustrated power level what they're doing.
---[X] Drag Fennella with.
 
[X] Tell Fennella you'd like to spar. (0.9x vote weighting)
-[X] Ask Fennella what's up. Who's that she's trying not to look at?
 
Fighting under Masque would be like challenging Usain Bolt to a footrace for the sake of fun, asking him to go easy on you, and him responding by insisting on running the race backwards. He'd still probably win, but are you feeling insulted yet?

...

Except that in both of these cases, it's not you versus Usain Bolt. It's you versus somebody who can (*math*) run 173 times faster than you.
Don't we have access to 60% of our power in Masque form? That's a power level of 225 million which is still oodles above what Fennella's capable of.
 
Couldn't ASSJ/USSJ/Roshi's Bulking be some kinda variant of the Kaio-Ken, were instead of increasing the rate of flow you artifically increase the "size/width" of your "ki veins" to more than their natural "size"?

Come to think of it, if there is a pressure relationship, that might be why Goku bulked up when he went Kaio-Ken x3 against Vegeta, as a way of mitigating a bit more of the stress than he otherwise could.

Edit: But a pressure relationship would mess with how things work when there is an increase in the quantity of ki. Which we don't want. So I'm going to say it's just increasing the conduit width, rather than involving the Kaio-Ken
 
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[X] Tell Fennella you'd rather not spar.
-[X] Ask Fennella what's up. Who's that she's trying not to look at?
--[X] Go and ask the frustrated power level what they're doing.
---[X] Drag Fennella with.
 
[X] Tell Fennella you'd rather not spar.
-[X] Ask Fennella what's up. Who's that she's trying not to look at?
--[X] Go and ask the frustrated power level what they're doing.
---[X] Drag Fennella with.

I'd really, really like not to leave the room where all the actual politicking is happening. Pretty please?
 
Thanks to @Bommelom for helping me refine these thoughts from above.

How I think Ki Enhancement Works
An Analytical Speculation​

There is in every body a ki network, through which ki circulates. Ki is generated by the body, and also used by the body for enhancement. Generally it takes a while for the body to consume the ki generated, long enough for the body to replace it, but the rigors of a fight use up ki faster than it can be generated, which causes exhaustion. Several times fighters have commented about having "used up all their Ki" or "used up all their energy".

For the wider Galaxy, Battle Power or Power Level (called BPL from here out) is then a measure of Ki Flux (possibly flow) in the body. More ki, or faster flow, or better distributed flow throughout the body can all make a person more powerful.

Of course, while the wider galaxy knows how to do ki blasts, they don't know how to optimize any of this beyond whatever the genetic and environmental lottery sees fit to bestow upon any given individual.

Not so for martial artists of Earth and Otherworld. I shall attempt to use this model of a Ki Circulatory Network to explain the various shenaniganry Dragon Ball Martial Artists get up to.

Suppressing one's BPL is obviously a matter of throttling back how much of your ki is flowing, and raising your BPL is increasing how much of your ki is flowing (naturally up to a given maximum). This would be Ki Control in the quest

Ki blasts are also obvious, simply having the ki flow out of the body in a destructive way. Blasts are discrete cut off quantities while beams are more like a water hose spraying water.

Muton Roshi's training with the turtle shell, or the gravity room training is somewhat different and requires more explanation. Like any system designed by evolution, the Ki Circulatory Network is horribly unoptimized, and Mutaito figured out a method by which one can adjust the automatic and subconscious management of ki flow to more optimal arrangements. The Turtle Shells and weighted clothing and the gravity room are, presumably, all methods of assisting this process.

So what about that incident with Ginyu in Goku's body not being able to get his BPL nearly as high? I posit that the methods of the Mutaito derived schools include some sort of concious control over how your ki circulatory network distributes your ki. Dancing is different from brick laying is different from feats of pure strength is different from digesting is different from fighting is different from gymnastics. Which places in your body have priority on getting ki will influence which of these things you are better at. Thus part of Mutatio derived Martial Arts schools is influencing consciously how the ki network distributes ki throughout the body. This also explains how charged Ki attacks can have a higher effective power level.

Kaio-Ken is increasing the rate of flow through the network. As mentioned in the show, this is extremely delicate and while it gives enormous boosts it comes with equally enormous stresses on the body. The Ki Circulatory Network is designed for a certain rate of flow, and increasing it is something that it has trouble handling. It is possible to mitigate these stresses with good enough Ki Control and Distribution control, which is how Goku is able to master x2 and then up to x10 without any of the usual danger. "Kaio-Ken Times X" simply means your ki is flowing X times faster than normal.

Bulking is increasing the cross sectional area of the Ki Conduits that form the network. Because Ki is bullshit that doesn't follow conventional physics, this doesn't decrease the flow speed and thus has no relationship to the Kaio-Ken. Bulking would be related to the Kaio-Ken, but having that sort of relationship messes with things when Zenkai or similar training comes around, which clearly does not match what happens in the show.

Zenkai is the Saiyan body deciding to produce more ki than it did previously after surviving a beatdown, because clearly it wasn't producing enough before. I presume that the Turtle Shell and Weighted Clothing and Gravity Room also help train the body to produce more Ki, thus when the need to reinforce the body against the weight disappears some amount of ki is freed to increase the amount flowing through the body being used for enhancement in other ways. Because Ki is bullshit this increase in the raw quantity of Ki doesn't cause any sort of pressure problems for the fighter's Ki Network like Kaio-Ken does.

Super Saiyan would depend on which system you're using. If it's a multiplier, then it's probably a well of additional power. We are using Bringer of Death's system, so it's probably a second Ki Circulatory Network attached to a new well of power. The Base Cap increases are a result of how these networks aren't completely independent since it's the same body, and FPSSJ is achieving the same kind of control over the second network as you have over your base network.

I have not considered deeply how Higher Levels of Super Saiyan would work in this model. SSJ2 would presumably be yet another network, and SSJ3 accessing even further redundancy in the Saiyan Ki Networks, at least for Bringer of Death Based Systems. For multiplicative systems it would just be even bigger wells of power, or figuring out how to draw more power from the SSJ well per unit time.​

SSJ4 isn't really properly a continuation of the SSJ line, so it's probably more related to Oozaru than SSJ proper. Maybe it's a combining of the Oozaru/Base/SSJ networks to a single unified whole? I dunno.

Edit:
I am clearly wrong about Kaio-Ken and Bulking being unrelated. Ki is demonstrably capable of generating thrust, Kamehamehas are used multiple times for that purpose and Bukujutsu is fucking flying. Thrust means Newton's Second Law or something like it applies, which means Bernoulli has something to say, which means Kaio-Ken and Bulking are related.

Bulking therefore is increasing cross sectional area while increasing flow speed back up to normal, and Goku bulked up when using Kaio-Ken x3 against Vegeta to help mitigate the stresses of the technique.

Ki's magical bullshitness comes in when a greater density of Ki doesn't increase the pressure or velocity or whatever of the ki conduits.

Edit2: Newton's Third Law applies, not necessarily his second. But I still feel Bommelom's conjecture of Bulking and Kaio-Ken being related is an elegant way of tying disparate things together.
 
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The Great Ape transformation is, quite obviously, the Body line of transformations, and the one that has the most similarities to the mutants of other races.
Great Ape isn't any more a ki thing than the eye's ability to take in light and provide the brain with visual information or adrenaline, it's purely biological. (See here for details.) I guess you can kinda make it fit but at that point you're forcing the evidence to match the theory rather than forming the theory to match the evidence.
 
Great Ape isn't any more a ki thing than the eye's ability to take in light and provide the brain with visual information or adrenaline, it's purely biological. (See here for details.) I guess you can kinda make it fit but at that point you're forcing the evidence to match the theory rather than forming the theory to match the evidence.
Well, besides the fact that what the Saiyans believe, and what is actually case aren't always the same(I mean, for all we know, there's an innate way to trigger the transformation, and the light thing is a way to bypass that, much like the God ritual), there's the fact that the transformations correspond to the Ki components. The transformations aren't so much triggered by Ki, or directly alter Ki, so much as they alter what the Ki is drawn from.

Whether this is a coincidence or a result of Saiyans evolution as a warrior/predator, Ki-using race would be an open question.
 
All information previously on the front page (the Character Sheet and Other Characters screens), has been consolidated onto the Characters Screen, with the former Other Characters Screen left reserved for the eventual lore screen. Formatting this thing was a nightmare. However, I've now got a handle on how this works, and work has sped up tremendously. I will break for the night, citing mental fatigue, and tomorrow will update the Characters Screen with any significant characters that you all know of. I expect that to take a fair bit of time, but am ambitious enough to hope that I will also at least format the Lore Screen tomorrow, and hopefully fill it out. Expect a fully-functional front page by tomorrow, and feature-complete by the day after at the latest.

In other words:

Present Status: Characters Screen FULLY FUNCTIONAL, NON-FEATURE-COMPLETE but with Kakara, Berra, and Jaffur's sheets up and complete. Lore Screen NON-FUNCTIONAL, NON-FEATURE-COMPLETE.

Optimistic Timeline: By tomorrow, Characters Screen to be FULLY FUNCTIONAL AND FEATURE-COMPLETE, Lore Screen to be FULLY FUNCTIONAL AND FEATURE-COMPLETE.

Estimated Timeline: By tomorrow, Characters Screen to be FULLY FUNCTIONAL AND FEATURE-COMPLETE, Lore Screen to be FULLY FUNCTIONAL, NON-FEATURE-COMPLETE.

And while I'll leave it overnight to catch any last votes, I leave you with one final vote tally for the night.

Vote tally:
##### 3.21
[X] Tell Fennella you'd like to spar. (0.9x vote weighting)
-[X] Ask Fennella what's up. Who's that she's trying not to look at?
No. of votes: 10
Macros, Bommelom, KnightDisciple, Gore17, KaintukeeBob, Rmnimoc, adaer, Terrabrand, anailater, Zuduke

[X] Tell Fennella you'd rather not spar.
-[X] Ask Fennella what's up. Who's that she's trying not to look at?
--[X] Go and ask the frustrated power level what they're doing.
---[X] Drag Fennella with.
No. of votes: 13
Kairos123, Darkandus, ChronOblivion, Icefyre, Andres110, veekie, HidCyan, Aranfan, pianoman, Astaroh-M, ChildishChimera, Sucal, BrainInAJar

[x] Tell Fennella you'd rather not spar.
-[x] Ask Fennella what's up. Who's that she's trying not to look at?
--[x] Go and ask the frustrated power level what they're doing. (Write-in approach and conversation topics)
---[x] Drag Fennella with.
[x] Our questions can wait. Stop answering questers' questions until you get the reformat done with.
No. of votes: 1
Bakkasama

[X] Tell Fennella you'd like to spar. (0.9x vote weighting)
-[X] Ask Fennella what's up. Who's that she's trying not to look at?
[X] Use Multiform to gain one additional action. (FREE ACTION)
[X] Go talk to somebody else.
-[X] Frustrated presence
-[X] Calmly and politely walk up to them and ask what seems to be wrong.
-[X] Well, this way we get both sides of the story, right?
[X] Our questions can wait. Stop answering questers' questions until you get the reformat done with.
No. of votes: 1
Nathaniel Wolff

[X] Tell Fennella you'd rather not spar.
-[X] Ask Fennella what's up. Who's that she's trying not to look at?
--[X] Go and ask the frustrated power level what they're doing.
---[X] Drag Fennella with.
[X] Use Multiform to gain one additional action. (FREE ACTION)
[X] Go talk to somebody else.
-[X] Lady Vegeta, you want to know what she's been doing.
[X] Our questions can wait. Stop answering questers' questions until you get the reformat done with.
No. of votes: 1
SMuha

[X] Tell Fennella you'd like to spar. (0.9x vote weighting)
-[X] Ask Fennella what's up. Who's that she's trying not to look at?
-[x]spar as Karen
-[x]use public cookie to help win fight.
No. of votes: 1
The king Chad

Meanwhile, while we wait to see if that shakes anything up (I doubt it, discussion seems to have moved on)

I WAS A FOOL

Shhhhh....just let it happen.

The sound of flesh impacting flesh, the grunts, the sudden gasps, the mental disgust as you realize how icky this sounds when read aloud...just let it happen.

...y'know, we as a forum just got smacked over what is apparently a systemic problem with Rule 6. Not that I'd infract you for that, were I a mod, but, um...careful. ;) I imagine they'll be on the patrol for the next while.

Ooh, there's another thing for me to answ-

NO! Bad Poptart! Sleep now! That one will get answered when the Lore Screen goes live anyway!

Ow! Geez, fine. G'night, everybody.
 
The character screen feels sloppy. Opening up the spoilers for the Saiyans is unpleasant due to the required scrolling.
 
Jaffur's Sealing: Jaffur fought to keep himself free of his mother's Seal. He lost. You are aware that he has somehow retained an awareness of himself, his surroundings, and the world as his Seal sees it, and to a limited extent he is capable of contact with the outside world, but he remains a prisoner.
For his whole life, none. Jaffur's life is a litany of failures and setbacks.
Just read this, and..poor Jaffur.
 
So, I've been looking through this thread, and I've got a question: what is the status of Dragon Ball Minus in this quest?

*dives into the anti-Whis bunker*
 
So, I've been looking through this thread, and I've got a question: what is the status of Dragon Ball Minus in this quest?

*dives into the anti-Whis bunker*
I think I can answer this one. In this quest, seer abilities come from Bardock, which should make the Bardock special canon (since he received the ability to see the future in the Bardock special), so since Dragon Ball Minus isn't compatible with the Bardock special and doesn't have Bardock becoming psychic/a Seer, it should be non-canon.

Episode of Bardock is also broadly canon, and I don't think that one's compatible with Minus either.
 
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