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Dragon Ball: After the End

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PoptartProdigy said:
Imagine the American perspective, but dialed up several notches.
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Is the American perspective really so bad as to be the default 'bad choice' to go to here?

I remember reading some story or another where somebody recommended therapy in a japanese setting, and then recommended their own foreign (american?) doctor as they didn't particularly trust the Japanese ones given their culture's view on mental health.
 
redzonejoe said:
Is the American perspective really so bad as to be the default 'bad choice' to go to here?

I remember reading some story or another where somebody recommended therapy in a japanese setting, and then recommended their own foreign (american?) doctor as they didn't particularly trust the Japanese ones given their culture's view on mental health.
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I know no other perspective, but I know the American one has some serious shortcomings. I don't know how bad Japan is beyond hearsay, and that seems like it has the potential to give me bad information.
 
[x] Fight on. You can still win this.
-[x] Try to get around your father and take down Vegeta before he returns to base form. If you can even the numbers, you can still salvage this.

This seems like an action likely to succeed and gives real progress.
 
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PoptartProdigy said:
That's come up a few times, actually. Saiyan society has a distinctly unhealthy view of mental health care, and of mental health issues in general. Imagine the American perspective, but dialed up several notches. To the point where the Exiles have three -- yes, three -- therapists. In total. In their view, mental issues really shouldn't be a thing, and admitting them is weakness.

Berra's personal crusade for the duration of his term as Lord has been an effort to push a healthier view of the mental health and its attendant medical field, and it's been slow going. He has recently succeeded in establishing a formal school, but given that it takes a doctor to make a doctor, growth is slow. It's starting, though. Changing the public's mind is another matter. One of the reasons Berra's so thrilled to have a talker for a daughter. Helpful, if they pool their efforts.
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And this is the society that descended from and looks up to the likes of vegeta and Goku. Oh god.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
Kakara is eminently suited to the Communication method of changing people's traits. It takes time, though.
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Most good.

I definitely think we should make a STRONG effort to social fu Jaffur in this way -- it could lead to massive problems later down the line with his current outlook on things.
PoptartProdigy said:
Berra's personal crusade for the duration of his term as Lord has been an effort to push a healthier view of the mental health and its attendant medical field, and it's been slow going. He has recently succeeded in establishing a formal school, but given that it takes a doctor to make a doctor, growth is slow. It's starting, though. Changing the public's mind is another matter. One of the reasons Berra's so thrilled to have a talker for a daughter. Helpful, if they pool their efforts.
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That is excellent to hear.
 
fictionfan said:
This seems like an action likely to succeed and gives real progress.
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I don't suppose I could convince you to vote for getting Jaffur healed as well?

I agree that going for Vegeta is the best option, since we'd be able to both heal Jaffur and then grab Dandeer afterwards, but getting Jaffur healed up first is still better than immediately trying to grab Dandeer.
 
redzonejoe said:
Is the American perspective really so bad as to be the default 'bad choice' to go to here?

I remember reading some story or another where somebody recommended therapy in a japanese setting, and then recommended their own foreign (american?) doctor as they didn't particularly trust the Japanese ones given their culture's view on mental health.
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PoptartProdigy said:
I know no other perspective, but I know the American one has some serious shortcomings. I don't know how bad Japan is beyond hearsay, and that seems like it has the potential to give me bad information.
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I can give a bit of historical context to the American perspective, if it's of any help. It's a mixture of a basis from the English perspective (where we get the word Bedlam from, in reference to the Bethlehem facility where they locked up mental patients when being a doctor was less a science and more a guessing game), the fact that seeing people with a mental disability just scares the living daylights out of most people,and some truly horrifying things that came out about treatment in the 19th century from journalist Nellie Bly. She had herself committed to a facility deliberately in order to get an inside look at how patients were treated. The consequences is that mental health was revamped on a national scale, and while that was absolutely a good thing, the image from that day has stuck around in our heads and refuses to leave. You can see examples of it everywhere from games like Outlast, or movies like Terminator II. It's rare to see a psychiatric hospital treated in fiction as anything but a place of fear instead of healing.
 
VicSage said:
It's rare to see a psychiatric hospital treated in fiction as anything but a place of fear instead of healing.
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Many fictional centres of esoteric art like magic and martial arts are often also portrayed as places of mental healing. Though, that is commentary on the american perspective in and of itself.
 
[X] Fight on. You can still win this.
-[X] Try to get around your father and take down Vegeta before he returns to base form. If you can even the numbers, you can still salvage this.
Adhoc vote count started by Sir LagsAlot on Aug 23, 2018 at 5:31 PM, finished with 29680 posts and 35 votes.
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Adhoc vote count started by Sir LagsAlot on Aug 24, 2018 at 12:46 AM, finished with 29724 posts and 45 votes.
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Bommelom said:
I don't suppose I could convince you to vote for getting Jaffur healed as well?

I agree that going for Vegeta is the best option, since we'd be able to both heal Jaffur and then grab Dandeer afterwards, but getting Jaffur healed up first is still better than immediately trying to grab Dandeer.
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Trying to do two actions at the same time is likely to result in both falling. Also there are other people going to heal Jaffur. Dad is likely to try and stop us if we go after Vegeta so there will be no one in their way.
 
Cariyaga said:
And it also leaves Dandelor open for Berra to attack.
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And heading for Dandeer makes Dandelor open for Vegeta to attack once he gets back in shape and there's no one to hold him back. There's simply no options we have, save for trying to take on a Golden Ape head on, that don't leave either Berra or Vegeta unattended for even a brief period of time.

However, since we're significantly faster than Berra, I believe we can take out Vegeta/get Jaffur to the Senzus and then Instant Transmission back to fight Berra before he gets the chance to attack anyone, especially since his first reaction to an Instant Transmission would be to defend Dandeer.

My main problem with going for Dandeer immediately is simply that going for Dandeer after we've either knocked out Vegeta or healed Jaffur is strictly better than going for her without having done either and thus having to fight both Vegeta and Berra at the same time.

Using Dandeer as a flail and having to only fight Berra is better than having to fight both Berra and Vegeta, and similarlty, using Dandeer as a flail with Jaffur as support is better than using Dandeer as a flail while not having him as support.
 
Bommelom said:
And heading for Dandeer makes Dandelor open for Vegeta to attack once he gets back in shape and there's no one to hold him back. There's simply no options we have, save for trying to take on a Golden Ape head on, that don't leave either Berra or Vegeta unattended for even a brief period of time.

However, since we're significantly faster than Berra, I believe we can take out Vegeta/get Jaffur to the Senzus and then Instant Transmission back to fight Berra before he gets the chance to attack anyone, especially since his first reaction to an Instant Transmission would be to defend Dandeer.

My main problem with going for Dandeer immediately is simply that going for Dandeer after we've either knocked out Vegeta or healed Jaffur is strictly better than going for her without having done either and thus having to fight both Vegeta and Berra at the same time.

Using Dandeer as a flail and having to only fight Berra is better than having to fight both Berra and Vegeta, and similarlty, using Dandeer as a flail with Jaffur as support is better than using Dandeer as a flail while not having him as support.
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I disagree:

qf Poptart:
The Oddball option. If this vote wins, I will not have Kakara wildly swinging Dandeer around by the tail; Kakara will maintain a grip on Dandeer's tail, but choose to fulcrum her swings on a more structurally-sound body part. If victorious, the update ensuing from this vote would break following Dandelor's efforts at breaking the mind control. EDIT: Forgot to mention tactical considerations. The idea is to, in addition to torturing Dandeer, use her as a combined human shield and unblockable weapon. Berra can't really block against her without crippling or killing her, meaning he has to instead avoid her. Given that he is significantly slower than Kakara right now, that puts him at a massive disadvantage.
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Point One: Berra cannot fight us effectively while we're using Dandeer-flail. "Massive disadvantage" is the words used there.
Point Two: It says that the update will end after Dandelor's efforts at breaking the mind control.
Point Three: Vegeta will not be able to fight during this update.

e:

Basically, there are significant opportunity costs to not going after Dandeer immediately. It risks Dandelor losing out against her, or being taken out by Berra, both of which, to my best guess, mean the fight's over.
 
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fictionfan said:
Trying to do two actions at the same time is likely to result in both falling. Also there are other people going to heal Jaffur. Dad is likely to try and stop us if we go after Vegeta so there will be no one in their way.
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I agree that knocking out Vegeta is better than healing Jaffur, it's just that I also think that trying to heal Jaffur is better than going for Dandeer immediately and more likely to win this vote (12 votes for healing Jaffur vs 10 votes for going for Vegeta). I mean, I'm personally voting for both.

Oh, and I didn't mean to do multiple actions at the same time. It's just that after we've knocked out Vegeta, then at the next option we'll have the options of voting for going after Dandeer (if there's a danger of Berra attacking Dandelor or the Senzus) or healing Jaffur (if there isn't).

The part about Berra being distracted is a really good point, though. If we knock Vegeta out first, and then go start swinging Dandeer around, there's no one to prevent the Senzus from getting Jaffur healed.
 
Also: Punching Dandeer out is less likely to work because it doesn't get the Oddball bonus.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Yes, but defending her by attacking the person carrying her as a human shield is not necessarily the best way he can think of to defend her. If we're not actively hurting Dandeer, he might prioritize another target.
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...Do you think that swinging her around with a grip on her tail with her screaming in agony isn't hurting her?
 
Can I just say that between Carrick getting subverted and Dandeer subverting the Lords, it's going to be centuries before any Sorcerers or Seers are going to be trusted with any real power at this rate? Like, I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes a major issue that almost everybody who isn't a Sorcerer or Seer is agitating for them to have them broken into tiny cells and basically put under house arrest with guards ensuring compliance because it's the only reliable counter for exactly this sort of situation. People aren't going to just forget about this without further mind whammy-ing.
 
Cariyaga said:
Point One: Berra cannot fight us effectively while we're using Dandeer-flail. "Massive disadvantage" is the words used there.
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I agree completely with this. If there is no worrying about having to fight two opponents at once, it's a very effective option.
Cariyaga said:
Point Two: It says that the update will end after Dandelor's efforts at breaking the mind control.
Point Three: Vegeta will not be able to fight during this update.
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This is very I think I have different assumptions as you. I read the update ending after Dandelor's efforts at breaking the mind control as in it'll end after his first attempt to counteract Dandeer's sorcerery.

Depending on how exactly the mind control works and how strong it is compared to what Dandelor can do, that first attempt can either succeed in break the mind control completely (I think that's unlikely, though), fail completely (even more unlikely), or mean he'll start breaking the mind control but he'll need to concentrate for a time in order to get it done.

If Dandelor doesn't break the mind control immediately, that means Vegeta comes back into play.

And, well, Kakara barely knows anything about sorcery, yet alone enough to have any idea how difficult breaking the mind control will be or how much time it will take. With our knowledge, it could be anywhere from a few seconds or some minutes to half an our or even several hours.

Should probably ask @PoptartProdigy to be sure, though. Is my assumption about the next update ending (and Vegeta getting back into play) after Dandelor starts his attempt at breaking the mind control rather than when he ends it (whether or not it's successful) correct? Or could it just as well end after Dandelor tells us that it's going to take, say, 10 minutes to break it?
Simon_Jester said:
Yes, but defending her by attacking the person carrying her as a human shield is not necessarily the best way he can think of to defend her. If we're not actively hurting Dandeer, he might prioritize another target.
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This I disagree with. Swinging her around and causing her massive pain by holding her tail is actively hurting her, (moreso than Dandelor trying to break the mind control) so he'll most likely priotize getting her out of our grasp.

Edit:
My nightmare scenario is really Dandelor informing us that he's not quite sure how the mind control even works and that he'll have to figure that out before he can break it, or that he won't be able to break it in a reasonable timeframe while they're resisting him.
 
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Bommelom said:
Is my assumption about the next update ending (and Vegeta getting back into play) after Dandelor starts his attempt at breaking the mind control rather than when he ends it (whether or not it's successful) correct?
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I disagree. The statement was pretty clear that it would stop after an attempt was made.

Bommelom said:
This I disagree with. Swinging her around and causing her massive pain by holding her tail is actively hurting her, (moreso than Dandelor trying to break the mind control) so he'll most likely priotize getting her out of our grasp.
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I agree.
 
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