Dragon Ball: After the End

Terrabrand · Jul 18, 2018

Sir LagsAlot said:
That one specific word would not have had any impact on the events of the quest or the author in any way shape or form so I struggle to see how my use of a descriptive word describing the quantity of death in a given situation matters in this situation besides such things as exaggeration exist and are used quite commonly in human speech.

Because an unqualified and unsignalled exaggeration looks exactly as if you were under the impression that the literal meaning applies, and therefore I had to operate on the assumption you had a misconception. Would be kinda assholish to just assume you knew it wasn't actually unprecedented when you were actually, specifically, and precisely saying it was. I can't read your mind, I'm stuck with the words on the screen, which indicated that you thought it was unprecedented.

Lailoken · Jul 18, 2018

We really should get around to designing a combined power ball / solar flare technique.

Gore17 · Jul 18, 2018

Hell, if people are worried about rogue Oozaru, we can use telepathy to warn people to close their eyes.

Simon_Jester · Jul 19, 2018

Sir LagsAlot said:
Has anyone brought up the concern that Jaffur might not be able to control his oozaru form? Or am I just forgetting that at some point he learned to control it?

We can warn him to look away, and destroy the power ball as soon as it takes effect on Dandeer.

This is basically the same issue that would arise with Solar Flare- it disrupts allies as well as enemies, unless they're tipped off ahead of time.

Terrabrand said:
Because an unqualified and unsignalled exaggeration looks exactly as if you were under the impression that the literal meaning applies, and therefore I had to operate on the assumption you had a misconception. Would be kinda assholish to just assume you knew it wasn't actually unprecedented when you were actually, specifically, and precisely saying it was. I can't read your mind, I'm stuck with the words on the screen, which indicated that you thought it was unprecedented.

Okay but jeez give the poor kid a break.

Lailoken said:
We really should get around to designing a combined power ball / solar flare technique.

Eh. The solar flare prevents people from seeing, the power ball only works on people who look at it. They're contradictory objectives. It'd be like inventing an air conditioner with a heating element or something.

Gore17 · Jul 19, 2018

Simon_Jester said:
Eh. The solar flare prevents people from seeing, the power ball only works on people who look at it. They're contradictory objectives. It'd be like inventing an air conditioner with a heating element or something.

Eh, not really. Solar flare produces a light, power ball generates a specific kind of EM wave. Combining the two so you either produce a flash of Blutz Waves, or so we have ball constantly blind everything is quite plausible.

You could also make it so it blinds and causes Oozaru transformation, but that's even more niche.

Terrabrand · Jul 19, 2018

Gore17 said:
You could also make it so it blinds and causes Oozaru transformation, but that's even more niche.

I wouldn't say that's niche, so much as probably/hopefully not useful against future main enemies.

PoptartProdigy · Jul 19, 2018

Simon_Jester said:
How about the phrasing "The best way to protect Dandeer is to stop her! She's in more danger from all this fighting than she would be from a trial!" Would that be a Communications check?

That would be Communication.

Simon_Jester said:
Okay. Well, reformatting the vote CAN work. That might actually be a good idea, even.

Now, let me point out that the current complicated plans were crafted so that Kakara can (in-character) try a reasonable selection of gambits, along with having a plan for the fight. This was seen as desirable because the default options all reduce to "fight a super-powered boxing match and hope our side wins before Dandeer can cast a spell that wipes everyone's brains." Kakara is not, and has never been since character generation, the kind of character for whom this is the ideal default strategy, so everyone is trying guile.

Do you have any notions for how to set up the vote so that many people can participate, and the vote is not pathologically complicated, BUT Kakara gets a reasonable number of opportunities to try persuasion and 'guile' tactics like Solar Flare or the 'throw a power ball at Dandeer and see if it turns her into an uncontrolled oozaru incapable of casting spells' gambit?

Because it would be badly nerfing Kakara if we can't vote on gambits for her to try, given that her entire character is built around being oddball, unconventional, a communicator and organizer instead of just being a warrior. But at the same time, we might need to come up with a different vote structure in that case- say, have a [GAMBIT] vote where every gambit that wins 50% or greater approval is tried. Or something.

If this turns into a case of "okay, I'm rewriting the vote to allow ONLY a handful of curated choices, and then we go into the fight scene and I'll tell you when it's all over whether you win or Dandeer mind-controls you all," then I'm against that.

If this turns into restructuring the vote so that Kakara can have a proper moment of glorious Oddball Communicative Princess glory at long last, while still giving everyone a chance to vote on it... I'm very heartily or it.

Well, you've convinced me.

Vote closed, everybody.

This vote has gone rather poorly for a variety of reasons. In particular, my handling of option presentation. Namely: for these kinds of votes, I like to leave open-ended options, because some of the quests I most enjoy following tend to use that style. That being said, I am beginning to come to the conclusion that just because those quests read well, does not mean they attract participation on a broad basis. Something of a tragic realization on my end, really.

My reasoning for this conclusion?

Vote Tally : Dragon Ball: After the End - Sci-Fi | Page 1149 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 28722-28805]
##### NetTally 1.9.8

[X] Plan Grasp Every Straw, With More Monkeys
-[X][OTHER] This is a bad situation, but you need to handle something.
--[X][OTHER] Find somebody who can get out a message and get Dandelor in here now! There's other sorcerer in the world who you'd bet even stands a chance against the woman who soloed fifty sorcerers at full power.
---[X][OTHER] Don't waste time finding someone, just broadcast to everyone in range except Dandeer and her SSJ guards to get Dandelor here now. And any other sorcerers, but especially Dandelor.
--[X][OTHER] Before attacking, you're going to try and get them to do your job for you. You'll shout (at FPSSJ speeds) that Dandeer is attempting to kill herself, and that they must knock her out in order to protect her from herself. Without the time pressure, this whole situation becomes much simpler.
-[X][FIGHT] If this fails, create a clone with a negligible Power Level and have it transform into a Full Power Oozaru. Have Apra do the same (no reason not to). When transformed, have the Oozaru support SSJ-you.
--[X][FIGHT] Throw a power ball at Dandeer. See if she can cast while going ape.
--[X][FIGHT] While the clone is transforming, attempt to Solar Flare and then IT over to Dandeer to KO her immediately. Be prepared to take go full Goku Style and take a hit to deal a hit - so long as you survive, Dandeer being KO'd is an immediate victory.
---[X][FIGHT] If this fails, try to send the memory of Dandeer killing the sorcerer to the 3 SSJ enemies through telepathy. Take advantage of any hesitation/distraction/new willpower check this causes them to again IT and attack Dandeer.
----[X][FIGHT] If this fails, see if they follow you if you go to help Apra take down Yammar. If they don't, take him down first and then fight them 3v2, taking shots at Dandeer as opportunities occur.
-----[X][FIGHT] If this fails focus on trying to get through to Dandeer - with the extra clone bodies, the guards should be unable to effectively defend against all attack without exposing Dandeer or themselves.
------[X][FIGHT] As you do this, you'll have to fight past the guards constantly - if you have the choice, you'll take Berra. Your father must be in there, somewhere. If you can reach him, you can turn him against Dandeer again, and get the odds back in your favour. Jaffur can take his father; it is literally the opponent he's built himself up all his life to kill.
--[X][FIGHT] If at any point Dandeer is successfully neutralised and the fight is not over, prioritise outlasting them and charging the Genki Dama.
No. of Votes: 7

Plan: ◈Grasp Every Straw With More Monkeys
Plan: ◈Grasp Every Straw, With More Monkeys
Cariyaga
Deathbybunnies
KaintukeeBob
Pittauro
Ridiculously Average Guy
Simon_Jester
thamuzz

[X] Plan Grasp Every Straw, With More Minions
[X][OTHER] This is a bad situation, but you need to handle something.
-[X][OTHER] Find somebody who can get out a message and get Dandelor in here now! There's other sorcerer in the world who you'd bet even stands a chance against the woman who soloed fifty sorcerers at full power.
--[X][OTHER] Don't waste time finding someone, just broadcast to everyone in range except your opponents to get Dandelor here now. And any other sorcerers, but especially Dandelor.
--[X][OTHER] While broadcasting, ask for any multiform users, or anyone else who can can keep themselves safe near a Super Saiyan fight, to prepare to attack Dandeer but get to cover for now.
-[X][OTHER] Before attacking, you're going to try and get them to do your job for you. You'll shout (at FPSSJ speeds) that Dandeer's actions will get her killed, and that they must knock her out in order to protect her from herself. Without the time pressure, this whole situation becomes much simpler.
[X][FIGHT] If this fails, create a clone with a negligible Power Level and have it transform into a Full Power Oozaru. Have Apra do the same (no reason not to). When transformed, have the Oozaru support SSJ-you.
-[X][FIGHT] Throw a power ball at Dandeer. See if she can cast while going ape.
-[X][FIGHT] While the clone is transforming, attempt to Solar Flare and then IT over to Dandeer to KO her immediately. Be prepared to take go full Goku Style and take a hit to deal a hit - so long as you survive, Dandeer being KO'd is an immediate victory.
--[X][FIGHT] If this fails, try to send the memory of Dandeer killing the sorcerer to the 3 SSJ enemies and Dandeer through telepathy, as well as anything else that might be distracting. Take advantage of any hesitation/distraction/new willpower check this causes them to again IT and attack Dandeer.
---[X][FIGHT] If this fails, see if they follow you if you go to help Apra take down Yammar. If they don't, take him down first and then fight them 3v2, taking shots at Dandeer as opportunities occur.
----[X][FIGHT] If this fails focus on trying to get through to Dandeer - with the extra clone bodies, the guards should be unable to effectively defend against all attack without exposing Dandeer or themselves.
-----[X][FIGHT] As you do this, you'll have to fight past the guards constantly - if you have the choice, you'll take Berra. Your father must be in there, somewhere. If you can reach him, you can turn him against Dandeer again, and get the odds back in your favour. Jaffur can take his father; it is literally the opponent he's built himself up all his life to kill.
-----[X][FIGHT] When engaging the guards, call for the masses to attack when useful.
-[X][FIGHT] If at any point Dandeer is successfully neutralised and the fight is not over, prioritise outlasting them and charging the Genki Dama.
No. of Votes: 6

Plan: ◈Grasp Every Straw, With More Minions
Akiri
KaintukeeBob
Pittauro
QueenPally
Ridiculously Average Guy
Simon_Jester

[X] Plan Keep A Clear Head
[X][OTHER] This is a bad situation, but you need to handle something.
-[X][OTHER] Find somebody who can get out a message and get Dandelor in here now! There's other sorcerer in the world who you'd bet even stands a chance against the woman who soloed fifty sorcerers at full power.
-[X][OTHER] You need to rally some of your people. You're in a numerically even fight, and need every advantage you can get. Get in contact with the Heads in on the conspiracy and direct them to provide massed fire support and counterspell work to the fight. Every little bit counts right now.
[X][FIGHT] Attempt to Solar Flare and then IT over to Dandeer to KO her immediately. Be prepared to take go full Goku Style and take a hit to deal a hit - so long as you survive, Dandeer being KO'd is an immediate victory.
-[X][FIGHT] If this fails, try to send the memory of Dandeer killing the sorcerers to Berra through telepathy, as well as anything else that might be distracting. Take advantage of any hesitation/distraction/new willpower check this causes him to again IT and attack Dandeer.
-[X][FIGHT] You'll take Berra. Your father must be in there, somewhere. If you can reach him, you can turn him against Dandeer again, and get the odds back in your favor. Jaffur can take his father; it is literally the opponent he's built himself up all his life to kill.
--[X][FIGHT] If this fails, see if he/they follow you if you go to help Apra take down Yammar. If they don't, take him down first and then fight them 3v2, taking shots at Dandeer as opportunities occur.
-[X][FIGHT] If at any point Dandeer is successfully neutralized and the fight is not over, prioritize outlasting them and taking them down one at a time and non-lethally.
No. of Votes: 2

Plan: ◈Keep A Clear Head
KnightDisciple
Terrabrand

[x] Plan Grasp Every Straw
No. of Votes: 1

Plan: ◈Grasp Every Straw
Bakkasama

——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: FIGHT

[x][FIGHT] Plan Spirit Monkey
-[x][FIGHT] Disengage and let Jaffur engage them for a bit. Use the time he buys to make a clone using multiform and have it transform into Oozaru while Kakara remains FPSS.
-[x][FIGHT] Go after Dandeer and stop her from preparing a spell. If one of her guards attack one of the clones, the other clone can deal with Dandeer and if both do, Jaffur can do so.
-[x][FIGHT] Once Dandeer is neutralized, Oozaru charges a genki dama while Kakara fights Berra so that she can go Spirit Saiyan.
No. of Votes: 1

Plan: ◈Spirit Monkey
Bakkasama

[x][FIGHT] Plan Two Become One
-[x][FIGHT] Disengage and let Jaffur engage them for a bit. Use the time he buys to make a clone using multiform and have it transform into Oozaru while Kakara remains FPSS.
-[x][FIGHT] Go after Dandeer and stop her from preparing a spell. If one of her guards attack one of the clones, the other clone can deal with Dandeer and if both do, Jaffur can do so.
-[x][FIGHT] Once Dandeer is neutralized, the Oozaru gives her ki to FPSS Kakara while the later lowers her super saiyan boost so as to not surpass the power level a golden oozaru would have. Then she fights Berra.
No. of Votes: 1

Plan: ◈Two Become One
Bakkasama

[x][FIGHT] Plan Do it with (Tien) Style!
-[x][FIGHT] Disengage and let Jaffur engage them for a bit. Use the time he buys to make a clone using multiform and have it transform into Oozaru while Kakara remains FPSS.
-[x][FIGHT] Go after Dandeer and stop her from preparing a spell. If one of her guards attack one of the clones, the other clone can deal with Dandeer and if both do, Jaffur can do so.
-[x][FIGHT] Once Dandeer is neutralized, help distract Yammar so that Apra can disengage and make a clone. Apra's clone transforms into oozaru and uses Ki Overload to blitz Berra and defeat him in one move.
No. of Votes: 1

Plan: ◈Do it with (Tien) Style!
Bakkasama

[X][FIGHT]mutiform Send base Oozaru off to collect the spirt bomb well Super Saiyan keep blasting at Dander force her protectors to stay anchored on her.
No. of Votes: 1

fictionfan

[X][FIGHT]Throw a power ball and shine it in Dandeer's eyes.
No. of Votes: 1

fictionfan

——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: OTHER

[X][OTHER] This is a bad situation, but you need to handle something.
-[X][OTHER] You need to rally some of your people. You're in a numerically even fight, and need every advantage you can get. Get in contact with the Heads in on the conspiracy and direct them to provide massed fire support and counterspell work to the fight. Every little bit counts right now.
-[X][OTHER] Find somebody who can get out a message and get Dandelor in here now! There's other sorcerer in the world who you'd bet even stands a chance against the woman who soloed fifty sorcerers at full power.
No. of Votes: 1

fictionfan

[x][OTHER] This is a bad situation, but you need to handle something.
-[x][OTHER] Find somebody who can get out a message and get Dandelor in here now! There's other sorcerer in the world who you'd bet even stands a chance against the woman who soloed fifty sorcerers at full power.
-[x][OTHER] Before attacking, you're going to try and get them to do your job for you. You'll shout (at FPSSJ speeds) that Dandeer is attempting to kill herself, and that they must knock her out in order to protect her from herself. Without the time pressure, this whole situation becomes much simpler.
No. of Votes: 1

Bakkasama

Total No. of Voters: 13

Ideologically, I like the idea that I can leave the player base more or less to their own devices when it comes to votes. I like giving the players wide latitude to take action. Practically speaking, that does not seem to be working out as I've been implementing it. This is one of the most important votes of the quest, and we have thirteen voters. It's not because the vote is important. We have had massive turnout on important votes before. Yet now that I think back, it occurs that those votes were a lot more closed than this one is. The average quester does not want to engage with the pages-long debates that produce write-in options such as we see here. Which, to be frank, is understandable.

So. This vote is not merely closed, it is scrubbed. I'm going to throw together an update tomorrow, so that you all get at least something for your time, and then we'll revisit this vote, with some heavy revisions.

Perhaps the biggest issue with how I've been handling votes, of late, is that they're an afterthought. I'm usually tired by the time I finish writing an update. I've laid out the plot, and I want to finish writing and hit, "Post Reply." This is a mistake on my part. This is a quest, and the votes are one of the most critical parts of how this runs. I need to start putting more effort back into the votes, even if that means delaying the update by a day so that I can go to sleep and write options with fresh eyes on the problem. Of late, I've been tending to treat them as starting points for the vote crafters. While that can lead to some interesting results, it also creates an intensely hostile environment to newcomers and casual questers. From the perspective of somebody not in on the vote crafting group, the default options are basically ignored by all of the big names, there's a high bar for entry in the form of very involved discussion, and the in-group only gets more in-group as time elapses. That's an intimidating prospect.

Good, robust, default options are one of the best ways the QM can address this. The lurkers who just want to add their voice to a vote can pick something they like and leave; the people who genuinely want to participate in the thread discussion, but don't want to face down the (let's be honest with ourselves) literal essays we write in support of our votes, can just pick something they like and leave.

So. In particular, I am going to be reworking this vote. In general, I am going to be taking a close look at how I engage with voting and write-ins in this quest, because this keeps happening, and I do not like it.

I'll see you all tomorrow, folks!

RideTheWalrus · Jul 19, 2018

PoptartProdigy said:
Of late, I've been tending to treat them as starting points for the vote crafters. While that can lead to some interesting results, it also creates an intensely hostile environment to newcomers and casual questers. From the perspective of somebody not in on the vote crafting group, the default options are basically ignored by all of the big names, there's a high bar for entry in the form of very involved discussion, and the in-group only gets more in-group as time elapses. That's an intimidating prospect

I'm shocked. All this time and I think you are the only person that has ever acknowledged this in any way. I didn't quote your whole post but the whole thing is gold.

Lailoken · Jul 19, 2018

PoptartProdigy said:
Good, robust, default options are one of the best ways the QM can address this. The lurkers who just want to add their voice to a vote can pick something they like and leave; the people who genuinely want to participate in the thread discussion, but don't want to face down the (let's be honest with ourselves) literal essays we write in support of our votes, can just pick something they like and leave.

Speaking from experience, this is a bad thing. This is a very bad thing. This is the entire reason that I invented moratoriums in the first place. "Participation" is not nearly as valuable as investment, and it's hard to invest in a collaborative project knowing that at any point a horde of unaccountable low-effort voters can sweep in, vote for their knee-jerk, and wander off without any consideration for the people who have put thousands of times as much effort into the project and working together to get things right. Writing your phone number on the wall of a public restroom may get you a lot of calls, but that very same desperate accesibility actively discourages quality. Lurkers who just "pick something they like and leave" are cancer to a healthy quest. There is a reason that I habitually behave exactly oppositely.

Gore17 said:
You could also make it so it blinds and causes Oozaru transformation, but that's even more niche.

Suddenly, the earth erupts with hundreds of blind, confused, berserk kaiju.

Modus_Tollens said:
"And that was the story of how Kakara created an inland sea with the power of pacifism. They say it didn't stop boiling for seventeen days..."

We have made a terrible mistake.

Wanderer Fleet Stealth Recon Vessel "Gypsy II" in high Garenhuld orbit...

Streaming comm channel to Wanderer I. Transcript as follows.

Wanderer I duty comm officer third rate said:
"AHHHHH!"

"AHHHHH!!!"

Wanderer I comm officer supervisor said:

"AHHHHH!!!"

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

"AHHHHH!!!!!"

Wanderer I XO said:

"AHHHHH!!!!!"

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

"AAAAHHHHH!!!!!"

Wanderer I Actual said:

"...Y'know, Murk's had a pretty good run..."

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

"WHY ARE THEY FLYING!?! FLYING MONKEYS INCOMING!!!

Blonddude42 · Jul 19, 2018

Lailoken said:
Speaking from experience, this is a bad thing. This is a very bad thing. This is the entire reason that I invented moratoriums in the first place. "Participation" is not nearly as valuable as investment, and it's hard to invest in a collaborative project knowing that at any point a horde of unaccountable low-effort voters can sweep in, vote for their knee-jerk, and wander off without any consideration for the people who have put thousands of times as much effort into the project and working together to get things right. Writing your phone number on the wall of a public restroom may get you a lot of calls, but quality matters. Lurkers who "pick something they like and leave" are cancer to a healthy quest. There is a reason that I habitually behave exactly oppositely.

I've got to second this, at least in the "lurkers who pick something they like and leave" bit.

I've stopped participating as much as I used to, and I've tried to vote less because of it. People who take a default option and vote it without bothering to look at anything else hurt investment. Reading what comes up and still deciding a default is best is a different story entirely, but knee-jerk voting is just bad in my opinion

I'm glad we're gonna get better default votes now, and I have enough trust in Poptart that we will get ones robust enough to have as competitive votes. I don't trust that all the defaults will consistently be better than all the write-in modifications we will inevitably make, but that's because it is entirely too much effort to do so and can defeat the purpose of write-in options.

Wiadi · Jul 19, 2018

PoptartProdigy said:
That would be Communication.

Well, you've convinced me.

Vote closed, everybody.

This vote has gone rather poorly for a variety of reasons. In particular, my handling of option presentation. Namely: for these kinds of votes, I like to leave open-ended options, because some of the quests I most enjoy following tend to use that style. That being said, I am beginning to come to the conclusion that just because those quests read well, does not mean they attract participation on a broad basis. Something of a tragic realization on my end, really.

My reasoning for this conclusion?

Vote Tally : Dragon Ball: After the End - Sci-Fi | Page 1149 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 28722-28805]
##### NetTally 1.9.8

[X] Plan Grasp Every Straw, With More Monkeys
-[X][OTHER] This is a bad situation, but you need to handle something.
--[X][OTHER] Find somebody who can get out a message and get Dandelor in here now! There's other sorcerer in the world who you'd bet even stands a chance against the woman who soloed fifty sorcerers at full power.
---[X][OTHER] Don't waste time finding someone, just broadcast to everyone in range except Dandeer and her SSJ guards to get Dandelor here now. And any other sorcerers, but especially Dandelor.
--[X][OTHER] Before attacking, you're going to try and get them to do your job for you. You'll shout (at FPSSJ speeds) that Dandeer is attempting to kill herself, and that they must knock her out in order to protect her from herself. Without the time pressure, this whole situation becomes much simpler.
-[X][FIGHT] If this fails, create a clone with a negligible Power Level and have it transform into a Full Power Oozaru. Have Apra do the same (no reason not to). When transformed, have the Oozaru support SSJ-you.
--[X][FIGHT] Throw a power ball at Dandeer. See if she can cast while going ape.
--[X][FIGHT] While the clone is transforming, attempt to Solar Flare and then IT over to Dandeer to KO her immediately. Be prepared to take go full Goku Style and take a hit to deal a hit - so long as you survive, Dandeer being KO'd is an immediate victory.
---[X][FIGHT] If this fails, try to send the memory of Dandeer killing the sorcerer to the 3 SSJ enemies through telepathy. Take advantage of any hesitation/distraction/new willpower check this causes them to again IT and attack Dandeer.
----[X][FIGHT] If this fails, see if they follow you if you go to help Apra take down Yammar. If they don't, take him down first and then fight them 3v2, taking shots at Dandeer as opportunities occur.
-----[X][FIGHT] If this fails focus on trying to get through to Dandeer - with the extra clone bodies, the guards should be unable to effectively defend against all attack without exposing Dandeer or themselves.
------[X][FIGHT] As you do this, you'll have to fight past the guards constantly - if you have the choice, you'll take Berra. Your father must be in there, somewhere. If you can reach him, you can turn him against Dandeer again, and get the odds back in your favour. Jaffur can take his father; it is literally the opponent he's built himself up all his life to kill.
--[X][FIGHT] If at any point Dandeer is successfully neutralised and the fight is not over, prioritise outlasting them and charging the Genki Dama.
No. of Votes: 7

Plan: ◈Grasp Every Straw With More Monkeys
Plan: ◈Grasp Every Straw, With More Monkeys
Cariyaga
Deathbybunnies
KaintukeeBob
Pittauro
Ridiculously Average Guy
Simon_Jester
thamuzz

[X] Plan Grasp Every Straw, With More Minions
[X][OTHER] This is a bad situation, but you need to handle something.
-[X][OTHER] Find somebody who can get out a message and get Dandelor in here now! There's other sorcerer in the world who you'd bet even stands a chance against the woman who soloed fifty sorcerers at full power.
--[X][OTHER] Don't waste time finding someone, just broadcast to everyone in range except your opponents to get Dandelor here now. And any other sorcerers, but especially Dandelor.
--[X][OTHER] While broadcasting, ask for any multiform users, or anyone else who can can keep themselves safe near a Super Saiyan fight, to prepare to attack Dandeer but get to cover for now.
-[X][OTHER] Before attacking, you're going to try and get them to do your job for you. You'll shout (at FPSSJ speeds) that Dandeer's actions will get her killed, and that they must knock her out in order to protect her from herself. Without the time pressure, this whole situation becomes much simpler.
[X][FIGHT] If this fails, create a clone with a negligible Power Level and have it transform into a Full Power Oozaru. Have Apra do the same (no reason not to). When transformed, have the Oozaru support SSJ-you.
-[X][FIGHT] Throw a power ball at Dandeer. See if she can cast while going ape.
-[X][FIGHT] While the clone is transforming, attempt to Solar Flare and then IT over to Dandeer to KO her immediately. Be prepared to take go full Goku Style and take a hit to deal a hit - so long as you survive, Dandeer being KO'd is an immediate victory.
--[X][FIGHT] If this fails, try to send the memory of Dandeer killing the sorcerer to the 3 SSJ enemies and Dandeer through telepathy, as well as anything else that might be distracting. Take advantage of any hesitation/distraction/new willpower check this causes them to again IT and attack Dandeer.
---[X][FIGHT] If this fails, see if they follow you if you go to help Apra take down Yammar. If they don't, take him down first and then fight them 3v2, taking shots at Dandeer as opportunities occur.
----[X][FIGHT] If this fails focus on trying to get through to Dandeer - with the extra clone bodies, the guards should be unable to effectively defend against all attack without exposing Dandeer or themselves.
-----[X][FIGHT] As you do this, you'll have to fight past the guards constantly - if you have the choice, you'll take Berra. Your father must be in there, somewhere. If you can reach him, you can turn him against Dandeer again, and get the odds back in your favour. Jaffur can take his father; it is literally the opponent he's built himself up all his life to kill.
-----[X][FIGHT] When engaging the guards, call for the masses to attack when useful.
-[X][FIGHT] If at any point Dandeer is successfully neutralised and the fight is not over, prioritise outlasting them and charging the Genki Dama.
No. of Votes: 6

Plan: ◈Grasp Every Straw, With More Minions
Akiri
KaintukeeBob
Pittauro
QueenPally
Ridiculously Average Guy
Simon_Jester

[X] Plan Keep A Clear Head
[X][OTHER] This is a bad situation, but you need to handle something.
-[X][OTHER] Find somebody who can get out a message and get Dandelor in here now! There's other sorcerer in the world who you'd bet even stands a chance against the woman who soloed fifty sorcerers at full power.
-[X][OTHER] You need to rally some of your people. You're in a numerically even fight, and need every advantage you can get. Get in contact with the Heads in on the conspiracy and direct them to provide massed fire support and counterspell work to the fight. Every little bit counts right now.
[X][FIGHT] Attempt to Solar Flare and then IT over to Dandeer to KO her immediately. Be prepared to take go full Goku Style and take a hit to deal a hit - so long as you survive, Dandeer being KO'd is an immediate victory.
-[X][FIGHT] If this fails, try to send the memory of Dandeer killing the sorcerers to Berra through telepathy, as well as anything else that might be distracting. Take advantage of any hesitation/distraction/new willpower check this causes him to again IT and attack Dandeer.
-[X][FIGHT] You'll take Berra. Your father must be in there, somewhere. If you can reach him, you can turn him against Dandeer again, and get the odds back in your favor. Jaffur can take his father; it is literally the opponent he's built himself up all his life to kill.
--[X][FIGHT] If this fails, see if he/they follow you if you go to help Apra take down Yammar. If they don't, take him down first and then fight them 3v2, taking shots at Dandeer as opportunities occur.
-[X][FIGHT] If at any point Dandeer is successfully neutralized and the fight is not over, prioritize outlasting them and taking them down one at a time and non-lethally.
No. of Votes: 2

Plan: ◈Keep A Clear Head
KnightDisciple
Terrabrand

[x] Plan Grasp Every Straw
No. of Votes: 1

Plan: ◈Grasp Every Straw
Bakkasama

——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: FIGHT

[x][FIGHT] Plan Spirit Monkey
-[x][FIGHT] Disengage and let Jaffur engage them for a bit. Use the time he buys to make a clone using multiform and have it transform into Oozaru while Kakara remains FPSS.
-[x][FIGHT] Go after Dandeer and stop her from preparing a spell. If one of her guards attack one of the clones, the other clone can deal with Dandeer and if both do, Jaffur can do so.
-[x][FIGHT] Once Dandeer is neutralized, Oozaru charges a genki dama while Kakara fights Berra so that she can go Spirit Saiyan.
No. of Votes: 1

Plan: ◈Spirit Monkey
Bakkasama

[x][FIGHT] Plan Two Become One
-[x][FIGHT] Disengage and let Jaffur engage them for a bit. Use the time he buys to make a clone using multiform and have it transform into Oozaru while Kakara remains FPSS.
-[x][FIGHT] Go after Dandeer and stop her from preparing a spell. If one of her guards attack one of the clones, the other clone can deal with Dandeer and if both do, Jaffur can do so.
-[x][FIGHT] Once Dandeer is neutralized, the Oozaru gives her ki to FPSS Kakara while the later lowers her super saiyan boost so as to not surpass the power level a golden oozaru would have. Then she fights Berra.
No. of Votes: 1

Plan: ◈Two Become One
Bakkasama

[x][FIGHT] Plan Do it with (Tien) Style!
-[x][FIGHT] Disengage and let Jaffur engage them for a bit. Use the time he buys to make a clone using multiform and have it transform into Oozaru while Kakara remains FPSS.
-[x][FIGHT] Go after Dandeer and stop her from preparing a spell. If one of her guards attack one of the clones, the other clone can deal with Dandeer and if both do, Jaffur can do so.
-[x][FIGHT] Once Dandeer is neutralized, help distract Yammar so that Apra can disengage and make a clone. Apra's clone transforms into oozaru and uses Ki Overload to blitz Berra and defeat him in one move.
No. of Votes: 1

Plan: ◈Do it with (Tien) Style!
Bakkasama

[X][FIGHT]mutiform Send base Oozaru off to collect the spirt bomb well Super Saiyan keep blasting at Dander force her protectors to stay anchored on her.
No. of Votes: 1

fictionfan

[X][FIGHT]Throw a power ball and shine it in Dandeer's eyes.
No. of Votes: 1

fictionfan

——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: OTHER

[X][OTHER] This is a bad situation, but you need to handle something.
-[X][OTHER] You need to rally some of your people. You're in a numerically even fight, and need every advantage you can get. Get in contact with the Heads in on the conspiracy and direct them to provide massed fire support and counterspell work to the fight. Every little bit counts right now.
-[X][OTHER] Find somebody who can get out a message and get Dandelor in here now! There's other sorcerer in the world who you'd bet even stands a chance against the woman who soloed fifty sorcerers at full power.
No. of Votes: 1

fictionfan

[x][OTHER] This is a bad situation, but you need to handle something.
-[x][OTHER] Find somebody who can get out a message and get Dandelor in here now! There's other sorcerer in the world who you'd bet even stands a chance against the woman who soloed fifty sorcerers at full power.
-[x][OTHER] Before attacking, you're going to try and get them to do your job for you. You'll shout (at FPSSJ speeds) that Dandeer is attempting to kill herself, and that they must knock her out in order to protect her from herself. Without the time pressure, this whole situation becomes much simpler.
No. of Votes: 1

Bakkasama

Total No. of Voters: 13

Ideologically, I like the idea that I can leave the player base more or less to their own devices when it comes to votes. I like giving the players wide latitude to take action. Practically speaking, that does not seem to be working out as I've been implementing it. This is one of the most important votes of the quest, and we have thirteen voters. It's not because the vote is important. We have had massive turnout on important votes before. Yet now that I think back, it occurs that those votes were a lot more closed than this one is. The average quester does not want to engage with the pages-long debates that produce write-in options such as we see here. Which, to be frank, is understandable.

So. This vote is not merely closed, it is scrubbed. I'm going to throw together an update tomorrow, so that you all get at least something for your time, and then we'll revisit this vote, with some heavy revisions.

Perhaps the biggest issue with how I've been handling votes, of late, is that they're an afterthought. I'm usually tired by the time I finish writing an update. I've laid out the plot, and I want to finish writing and hit, "Post Reply." This is a mistake on my part. This is a quest, and the votes are one of the most critical parts of how this runs. I need to start putting more effort back into the votes, even if that means delaying the update by a day so that I can go to sleep and write options with fresh eyes on the problem. Of late, I've been tending to treat them as starting points for the vote crafters. While that can lead to some interesting results, it also creates an intensely hostile environment to newcomers and casual questers. From the perspective of somebody not in on the vote crafting group, the default options are basically ignored by all of the big names, there's a high bar for entry in the form of very involved discussion, and the in-group only gets more in-group as time elapses. That's an intimidating prospect.

Good, robust, default options are one of the best ways the QM can address this. The lurkers who just want to add their voice to a vote can pick something they like and leave; the people who genuinely want to participate in the thread discussion, but don't want to face down the (let's be honest with ourselves) literal essays we write in support of our votes, can just pick something they like and leave.

So. In particular, I am going to be reworking this vote. In general, I am going to be taking a close look at how I engage with voting and write-ins in this quest, because this keeps happening, and I do not like it.

I'll see you all tomorrow, folks!

Hm. As a middle ground, maybe you could leave votes relatively open-ended initially, but only accept write-ins up to the end of the moratorium? Then the end-of-moratorium post (which most voters should be expected to read anyway, I imagine, as otherwise they won't know when to vote) could include a revised list of voting options which incorporates all write-ins offered up to that point. This cuts down on flexibility somewhat, in that it shortens the available discussion period for write-ins, but it gives people who just want to pick a vote a menu from which to choose without entirely closing off avenues for creativity from invested players.

Of course, I largely lurk anyway so my opinion may not be the most relevant, but I figured I'd chime in for whatever it's worth.

Okibruez · Jul 19, 2018

Largely speaking, I'm one of those lurking voters. I read a lot of different things, generally have more interesting things (to me) to do than sit in an hour long discussion, and almost inevitably when I do try to chime in with something, there's almost always crucial information I'm lacking because I don't have the time or interest in sitting in those hours or days long discussions. And then someone in the in-group jumps on it, and before long noone's happy.
It's about as regular as clockwork.

And I know this isn't uncommon. So that goes both ways, @Blonddude42.

And I'm excited to see the QM poking the voters with a stick about this.
I like the idea of more robust options for the default vote, and also for encouraging write-in groups to be more open about why we should vote for plan MONKEYS AT A TYPEWRITER than 'read the last dozen pages of conversation'.

PoptartProdigy · Jul 19, 2018

Wiadi said:
Hm. As a middle ground, maybe you could leave votes relatively open-ended initially, but only accept write-ins up to the end of the moratorium? Then the end-of-moratorium post (which most voters should be expected to read anyway, I imagine, as otherwise they won't know when to vote) could include a revised list of voting options which incorporates all write-ins offered up to that point. This cuts down on flexibility somewhat, in that it shortens the available discussion period for write-ins, but it gives people who just want to pick a vote a menu from which to choose without entirely closing off avenues for creativity from invested players.

Of course, I largely lurk anyway so my opinion may not be the most relevant, but I figured I'd chime in for whatever it's worth.

You are a part of the quest; your opinion is as relevant as any other.

Akiri · Jul 19, 2018

Seconding the suggestion for some kind of multi-winner gambit-based voting thing.

A lot of the length of this vote is redundant because every plan has to include every approved gambit. But if you break it down by line item, there really aren't that many unique ideas, and most of the ideas aren't complicated. With the current voting system, this particular problem would happen occassionally no matter what the default options look like.

Though this would make the minimum viable vote more complex and less lurker-friendly. Tricky.

(Also, I'm a newbie of 10ish posts and like half of them are giant walls of text because I have no sense of moderation. If you are targeting an audience of not-me's, you probably shouldn't listen to me.)

Simon_Jester · Jul 19, 2018

@PoptartProdigy

What it comes down to is, a successful quest needs both a lot of people who are interested and willing to participate but who have limited energy, and a solid core of people who are invested in the quest, actively spend time on it, remember all the relevant facts, and understand what's going on well enough to plan ahead.

If you drive away the former group, well, you're writing a quest for a dozen people plus a variable number of lurkers. Me, I could accept that, but not everyone likes it.

If you drive away the latter group, well... I'm not sure what happens then, but I doubt it'd be a good outcome either. And I'm going to try and speak up for that latter group, because I'm part of it, and because I honestly don't think any of us, including the lurkers and including yourself, would be enjoying this as much without that latter group's activity.

...

See, the thing is... the latter group wants to take all that time and effort we put into following the quest, and apply the understanding and knowledge. We want it to matter that they've spent dozens or hundreds of hours of our lives following along in this story you've created.

Massively complicated write-in plans may not be the optimal way to do that, but that's where the impulse comes from. We know stuff, we remember stuff, we have a pretty good idea how your worldbuilding works except for the parts of it kept carefully fenced off behind the GM screen. We want to use that stuff, as an alternative to just "Fight Berra, Vegeta, or Yammar, pick one."

I'm begging you, when you start thinking about crafting vote options, PLEASE think about structuring votes and update patterns so as to invite resourcefulness, innovation, and the use of all the resources at our disposal. The failure of voters to do exactly that is causing Kakara to underperform considerably compared to her potential in this scenario, and... frankly, to some extent the structure of voting has been setting us up to fail.

If it was up to me, we'd have regular votes like:

[PREP] [] Write-in: List precautions you want Kakara to advocate for building into the Unsealing plan. The top two most popular PREP choices will be brought up in a meeting before the next update

[TACTIC] [] Write-in: List gambits, tactics, or ideas you want to try for the fight. The top three TACTIC choices will be considered by Kakara, and used if they're compatible with her fighting style and what she knows about the situation, before the next update.

[STUDY] [] Write-in: List things you want to train harder. The most popular STUDY option will move up on Kakara's priority list, relative to other training priorities.

Having this all the time, or at least frequently, would be a relatively simple way to reward player creativity without drowning people in complexity.

Akiri said:
Seconding the suggestion for some kind of multi-winner gambit-based voting thing.

A lot of the length of this vote is redundant because every plan has to include every approved gambit. But if you break it down by line item, there really aren't that many unique ideas, and most of the ideas aren't complicated. With the current voting system, this particular problem would happen occassionally no matter what the default options look like.

Though this would make the minimum viable vote more complex and less lurker-friendly. Tricky.

You could just take the top two or three most popular [GAMBIT] votes, regardless of how many people voted for them, and use those in that update, then leave the rest open as options for another update.

I there's no pressing need to resolve the entire fight in a single update.

After all, come on, this is a DRAGONBALL quest! if anyone here is going to object if the climactic battle gets stretched out over several episodes, they're in the wrong franchise's fandom

Lailoken · Jul 19, 2018

If you want to make the quest lazy, impulsive, low-effort friendly without the main character ending up a schizophrenic moron, ban write-ins and force everybody to choose between a small number of solid default choices.

If that seems too restrictive, well, tough. That's the unavoidable minimum cost of explicitly catering to the lowest common denominator.

Carrnage · Jul 19, 2018

The only reason i havent voted is that i dont have enough confidence for a high risk gamble, nor the skill/knowledge to tell which gambles are more likely to succeed.

Lailoken · Jul 19, 2018

Carrnage said:
The only reason i havent voted is that i dont have enough confidence for a high risk gamble, nor the skill/knowledge to tell which gambles are more likely to succeed.

In which case not voting is exactly the right choice and you should be applauded for applying personal restraint instead of hurting all of your involuntary comrades just because you want to "participate".

Seriously, kudos. If all potential voters were like you none of this would be a problem in the first place.

Blonddude42 · Jul 19, 2018

Okibruez said:
Largely speaking, I'm one of those lurking voters. I read a lot of different things, generally have more interesting things (to me) to do than sit in an hour long discussion, and almost inevitably when I do try to chime in with something, there's almost always crucial information I'm lacking because I don't have the time or interest in sitting in those hours or days long discussions. And then someone in the in-group jumps on it, and before long noone's happy.
It's about as regular as clockwork.

And I know this isn't uncommon. So that goes both ways, @Blonddude42.

And I'm excited to see the QM poking the voters with a stick about this.
I like the idea of more robust options for the default vote, and also for encouraging write-in groups to be more open about why we should vote for plan MONKEYS AT A TYPEWRITER than 'read the last dozen pages of conversation'.

I'm sorry, I've had too long of a day and running on too little sleep to know what specifically you're calling me out for with that tag.

If you're trying to debate something I wrote in that post I'd love to have it said in a cleaner manner so we can have a proper discussion about it. I'm assuming it was related to my opinions on voting (specifically the lower end of participation variety) since that's all I felt I really talked about in my phone posted rambling. If so, I stand by them, although I do remain willing to debate and discuss them.

I will be attempting to sleep shortly though, so please forgive me if I fail to reply promptly to you if happen to make the time to reply

Lailoken said:
If you want to make the quest lazy, impulsive, low-effort friendly without the main character ending up a schizophrenic moron, ban write-ins and force everybody to choose between a small number of solid default choices.

If that seems too restrictive, well, tough. That's the unavoidable minimum cost of explicitly catering to the lowest common denominator.

While a touch more abrasive than I feel necessary, I do agree with the sentiment.

Write-in options are inherently unfriendly to new players and those that don't have the time (or will to invest the time) to participate heavily. The way votes are dealt with in the quest have to keep that in mind.

Banning them entirely as seen with the notable example of the AGG system made by Sage of Eyes on SB is one very good option. It requires a lot of work on the GM's part to develop things such that players have the absolute minimum input necessary to the quest though.

Most of the other options are to design a system where the core group of players making the plans and debating is an integral feature rather than an inevitable outcome of the high barrier of entry.

On a somewhat related note, part of the problem might be the current style of approval voting, which requires casting a vote for all of the sprawling write-in options that have very little different from each other.

It might be better to move to a Like Voting System. For those unaware, under a like voting system all votes are cast by "liking" (as in, hitting the like button) for a "Plan" made by a player. I use "Plan" loosely here since all it would require is being in whatever the approved "Plan" format is, be that several paragraphs of text or a single line.

This style does lean against those that want to vote but don't want to take to time to find a plan, but it is very good for players who are willing to go through the discussion and approve of a lot of plans (but get intimidated by having to copy all of the slightly different plans). It's also nice for when new "Plans" pop up because then players don't have to go back and copy all of the other plans they approve of to also show their approval of the newest one.

fictionfan · Jul 19, 2018

Never seen a quest on SV use like voting.

Andres · Jul 19, 2018

@PoptartProdigy, if you aren't doing so already, get advice from other GMs.

Wiadi · Jul 19, 2018

Blonddude42 said:
On a somewhat related note, part of the problem might be the current style of approval voting, which requires casting a vote for all of the sprawling write-in options that have very little different from each other.

It might be better to move to a Like Voting System. For those unaware, under a like voting system all votes are cast by "liking" (as in, hitting the like button) for a "Plan" made by a player. I use "Plan" loosely here since all it would require is being in whatever the approved "Plan" format is, be that several paragraphs of text or a single line.

This style does lean against those that want to vote but don't want to take to time to find a plan, but it is very good for players who are willing to go through the discussion and approve of a lot of plans (but get intimidated by having to copy all of the slightly different plans). It's also nice for when new "Plans" pop up because then players don't have to go back and copy all of the other plans they approve of to also show their approval of the newest one.

...what? You don't have to copy the entire plan, you can just copy the name and the tally will automatically fill in the body as long as the name starts with "Plan." That's...not exactly high-effort.

Deathbybunnies · Jul 19, 2018

I was excited to make a big plan for a desperate situation, taking every chance, looking for every advantage. The last few updates have been characterised by us just piling onto simple votes without much thought beyond maybe a single line of write-in, and it's screwed us over. If we'd gone into more detail we would have thrown out an Oozaru clone before even meeting Berra, because it could only help, etc.

I thought Kakara instantly pulling together a bunch of different off-the-wall ideas in a desperate attempt to pull this back together was going to be a really cool moment, and a highlight of the quest. I was pretty proud of putting together that plan.

Blonddude42 · Jul 19, 2018

Wiadi said:
...what? You don't have to copy the entire plan, you can just copy the name and the tally will automatically fill in the body as long as the name starts with "Plan." That's...not exactly high-effort.

Assuming it does start with "Plan" which isn't always the case. And assuming you never get plans that share names.

The higher effort part comes in with copying all of the plans you want, and then copying them again whenever you want to recast your vote. Admittedly, you could just edit new votes in. Regardless of the method used, both are more effort than bare minimum to vote.

Lailoken · Jul 19, 2018

The bare minimum to vote should be a trap which automatically discards the votes of anyone who falls into it, just like moratoriums.

*HISS* FILTHY CASUALS

Dragon Ball: After the End

the Ordainer

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the Ordainer

Lawful Evil

Uncompromising Radical Leftist

(Verified Mid-Boss)

Lawful Evil

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Please sir, may I have some Meows?

Uncompromising Radical Leftist