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Dragon Ball: After the End

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mithril-blade said:
I am not sure Dandeer isn't an exception to that. I mean, when she thought that, her pacifism trait read similar to that.
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Kakara's Relationships said:
Lady Dandeer Vegeta [Hated]
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Protector Trait said:
Protector [Foundational Trait]: Meerak forced you to confront the question of what kind of person you really are. It was a painful year, figuring out the answer, but now you have it. You have your powers so that you can keep people safe. Everybody. Even those who don't want to be. People who are working to hurt others need to be stopped, but that doesn't mean you need to sink to their level. At the end of the day, the wicked need to be stopped, but you aren't them -- and you won't become them. That might mean that you need to talk them down, or it might mean that you need to fight. So be it. But no matter what, you know one thing about yourself: Thou shalt not kill. You gain heavy vote weighting against the use of lethal force on sapient beings, and will never default to it of your own will, even against Hated Enemies. The use of lethal force will never be presented as a default option; the players must write such options in if they want them. However, Kakara now gains a moderate bonus on all checks made in service of actions taken to protect the lives or safety of others. You no longer encounter barriers or penalties to combat skill training. This trait may, still, be developed further...
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Still the case for Dandeer.
 
I don't think spending too much time in the afterlife is a good idea. Sensei warned us against using mind projection for extended periods since it leaves our body in a coma.
 
...A thought. If all of House Senzu sent Kakara power through Spirit Bomb, would that be enough for her to take on Berra, were it necessary in taking out Jaffur's seal?
 
Cariyaga said:
Still the case for Dandeer.
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Just want to point out that the text that you keep referring to says that we will not kill, not that we will literally stop every killing it is in our power to stop.

Personally, I see it this way: while Kakara wouldn't kill Cell or Kid Buu herself, I don't think she would do anything to stop Gohan or Goku from doing what needed to be done, if she were there.

Now does Dandeer fall in this category? I dunno, I suspect that it'll depend on how she reacts to the broken sealing. If she comes quietly, then, no, I doubt it'll be the kind of situation where we as Kakara (and still be in character, at least) would let Jaffur or Jaron murder her. But if she, say, kidnaps our baby brother and threatens to kill him and/or threatens to break the masquerade to the Garenhulders unless we help her fix the sealing... then yes, I could totally see Kakara turning a blind eye to whatever Jaffur or Jaron does to her.
 
ElleonXan said:
Just want to point out that the text that you keep referring to says that we will not kill, not that we will literally stop every killing it is in our power to stop.

Personally, I see it this way: while Kakara wouldn't kill Cell or Kid Buu herself, I don't think she would do anything to stop Gohan or Goku from doing what needed to be done, if she were there.

Now does Dandeer fall in this category? I dunno, I suspect that it'll depend on how she reacts to the broken sealing. If she comes quietly, then, no, I doubt it'll be the kind of situation where we as Kakara (and still be in character, at least) would let Jaffur or Jaron murder her. But if she, say, kidnaps our baby brother and threatens to kill him and/or threatens to break the masquerade to the Garenhulders unless we help her fix the sealing... then yes, I could totally see Kakara turning a blind eye to whatever Jaffur or Jaron does to her.
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I'm pretty sure Protector covers for other people killing, too. There's a reason Poptart said that leaving Dazarel to the other royals' judgement would suffer the same .1x penalty as killing him.
 
Cariyaga said:
By the cult, yes. I'm talking more widely than that.
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You're talking nonsensically. People aren't gonna literally deify us just because we reinvented a lost technique, no matter how important or culturally significant of one.

The Cult might do such things in general, because they already think in that direction, but there is no reason to believe the general Saiyan population would latch onto 'reinvented Spirit Bomb' as magical proof of divinity. And really, since the Cult does exist, I find it far more likely that the cult would see an uptick in membership rather than that a bunch of people would randomly become religiously reverent towards Kakara, in specific, and not, you know, join the religion that already reveres the Super Saiyans as demigods.
 
Cariyaga said:
I'm pretty sure Protector covers for other people killing, too. There's a reason Poptart said that leaving Dazarel to the other royals' judgement would suffer the same .1x penalty as killing him.
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Maybe, but if the situation was reversed and, say, Berra had pulled off the Spirit Saiyan and was about to kill the dragon, I don't think that Kakara would default to a "jump in and save the genocidal dragon from the person trying to protect the world" option.
 
ElleonXan said:
Maybe, but if the situation was reversed and, say, Berra had pulled off the Spirit Saiyan and was about to kill the dragon, I don't think that Kakara would default to a "jump in and save the genocidal dragon from the person trying to protect the world" option.
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Mostly because she wouldn't have the chance to at the speeds Berra would have been moving. :p
 
dragonx99 said:
Though that was admittedly in part because she realizes that if Jaffur is unsealed and goes straight to trying to kill Dandeer, then it is going to look like she has a good reason for sealing him after all.
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No, that's the reason she gave him because she needed to convince him not to. There's a difference between what she says and what she thinks.
 
Cariyaga said:
No, that's the reason she gave him because she needed to convince him not to. There's a difference between what she says and what she thinks.
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Was it? I'm asking sincerely because I thought I remembered her already being a pacifist when she was thinking to herself that she felt he had the right to kill Dandeer but I fully admit it is late where I am and I might be misremembering.
 
dragonx99 said:
Was it? I'm asking sincerely because I thought I remembered her already being a pacifist when she was thinking to herself that she felt he had the right to kill Dandeer but I fully admit it is late where I am and I might be misremembering.
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I'm fairly certain so, yes (though I could, of course, be wrong -- it's down to interpretation). It was in response to Jaffur/Jaron's resolution to kill her, and she needed a way to stop them from doing that.
 
Cariyaga said:
I'm fairly certain so, yes (though I could, of course, be wrong -- it's down to interpretation). It was in response to Jaffur/Jaron's resolution to kill her, and she needed a way to stop them from doing that.
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Nah I'm talking about something before that conversation, so now that I'm more awake I realize we could both be right and she just matured on how she wanted to deal with Dandeer. I think it was an update where she was doing something with the senzu but I'm not fully sure.
 
Phone didn't post this when it should have so it is outdated by your last post but just to clarify:

dragonx99 said:
Was it? I'm asking sincerely because I thought I remembered her already being a pacifist when she was thinking to herself that she felt he had the right to kill Dandeer but I fully admit it is late where I am and I might be misremembering.
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Kakara thought like that when she had the Pacifist trait but under Protector she values all life. The first one thought that fighting was wrong but allowed execution as lawful punishment even if she didn't like it, with her moral code revolving around fighting being wrong. Protector is built on the maxim that killing is wrong and it allows fighting because it will be sometimes necessary to protect others.

You are probably thinking about Year one or two of the quest. She stated once in one of those (1 I think) that she didn't kill Dandeer because Jaffur had ther right to tge first shot at it.
 
Bakkasama said:
Phone didn't post this when it should have so it is outdated by your last post but just to clarify:



Kakara thought like that when she had the Pacifist trait but under Protector she values all life. The first one thought that fighting was wrong but allowed execution as lawful punishment even if she didn't like it, with her moral code revolving around fighting being wrong. Protector is built on the maxim that killing is wrong and it allows fighting because it will be sometimes necessary to protect others.

You are probably thinking about Year one or two of the quest. She stated once in one of those (1 I think) that she didn't kill Dandeer because Jaffur had ther right to tge first shot at it.
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This is what I was thinking of yes. Thank you for the clarification, while binge reading the story I missed that part of the development into protector and thus mislead myself about what her thoughts were when talking to Jaron/Jaffur about not killing Dandeer.
 
dragonx99 said:
This is what I was thinking of yes. Thank you for the clarification, while binge reading the story I missed that part of the development into protector and thus mislead myself about what her thoughts were when talking to Jaron/Jaffur about not killing Dandeer.
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Yeah, I mean. We started with the Gentle trait in which we didn't like hurting others, which evolved after we reflected on it during year 1 into pacifist, that was against violence. That later evolved to include the subtrait open armed after we convinced Celeran through talking and forgave him, proving we don't need violence to turn enemies into allies.

Then when the scouts came we had a crisis because we chose to attack Meerak as a first resource after a very contentious vote and spent a while not knowing what we believed with the benefits of the trait disabled.

Finally, the day of the attack on the school, the combination of us choosing that letting people die to the missiles was unacceptable and then choosing not to kill the scout leader despite him trying to force our hand into it made it evolve into Protector, which means we think killing is wrong and we try to protect even mortal enemies.

So we went from instictual dislike of hurting others, to intellectual rejection of violence and fighting as a valid resource, to a personal crisis from resorting to it since it is what it was expected from us and finally ending in the moral conviction that killing is wrong and that sometimes fighting is necessary in order to save lives. On the upside, no malus to training and learning combat moves since we know the necessity but we also are morally obligated to try to save and convince even those we hate because it is the right thing to do. Kakara still accepts lawful imprisonment, even for life, but killing is a no-no regarless of who commits it or who the victim is.

Which means we have to be careful in 2 years time since it might cause a fallout with Jaffur or Jaron. Which is why I would like to use a vision to see what happened the night Vegeta was sealed to see if it can be used to convince them not to kill her or at least not to do so themselves. That way if Yammar does it, we would still probably lose an ally but at least it wouldn't poison the next generation.
 
Bakkasama said:
Yeah, I mean. We started with the Gentle trait in which we didn't like hurting others, which evolved after we reflected on it during year 1 into pacifist, that was against violence. That later evolved to include the subtrait open armed after we convinced Celeran through talking and forgave him, proving we don't need violence to turn enemies into allies.

Then when the scouts came we had a crisis because we chose to attack Meerak as a first resource after a very contentious vote and spent a while not knowing what we believed with the benefits of the trait disabled.

Finally, the day of the attack on the school, the combination of us choosing that letting people die to the missiles was unacceptable and then choosing not to kill the scout leader despite him trying to force our hand into it made it evolve into Protector, which means we think killing is wrong and we try to protect even mortal enemies.

So we went from instictual dislike of hurting others, to intellectual rejection of violence and fighting as a valid resource, to a personal crisis from resorting to it since it is what it was expected from us and finally ending in the moral conviction that killing is wrong and that sometimes fighting is necessary in order to save lives. On the upside, no malus to training and learning combat moves since we know the necessity but we also are morally obligated to try to save and convince even those we hate because it is the right thing to do. Kakara still accepts lawful imprisonment, even for life, but killing is a no-no regarless of who commits it or who the victim is.

Which means we have to be careful in 2 years time since it might cause a fallout with Jaffur or Jaron. Which is why I would like to use a vision to see what happened the night Vegeta was sealed to see if it can be used to convince them not to kill her or at least not to do so themselves. That way if Yammar does it, we would still probably lose an ally but at least it wouldn't poison the next generation.
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We could always get strong enough to stop Yammar instead.
 
So, I'm not very active on this thread but am caught up so far and I was curious what discussion has been had/ideas bounced around in regards to how Tabe's Ki Overcharge and Jaffur's Ki Refinement would interact?


Has anyone drawn parallels between Overcharge and Kaio-ken?
 
BungieONI said:
So, I'm not very active on this thread but am caught up so far and I was curious what discussion has been had/ideas bounced around in regards to how Tabe's Ki Overcharge and Jaffur's Ki Refinement would interact?


Has anyone drawn parallels between Overcharge and Kaio-ken?
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I mean there are similarities but kaio-ken actually increases your power level.

I think general consensus is that both techniques should in theory work together, but there's no real evidence yet.
 
NavySeel said:
I mean there are similarities but kaio-ken actually increases your power level.

I think general consensus is that both techniques should in theory work together, but there's no real evidence yet.
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Yeah I remember that and that's one of the biggest differences since either of Overcharge or Refinement are essentially punch up techniques meant to use what you have more effectively while Kaio-ken boosts power level directly.

Using the tank, hose and nozzle example, by multiplying power level Kaio-ken literally gives you a bigger nozzle on the hose which means you not only hit harder because more water is coming out, but you also wear out faster as you are pulling multiplicative amounts of ki from your reserves. This is pretty clearly demonstrated in the series, and is the main reason Super Sayian Kaio-ken is ludicrously hilariously :V dangerous because of what that sudden multiplication means for your body.

Ki Overcharge from Tabe's description means you are some how increasing the flow rate of Ki from your reserves, draining the tank rapidly, but the nozzle is unchanged so you still register at your original power level until you punch someone. It's basically mucking with the unmentioned pump pushing the ki from the tank to the nozzle in the metaphor. I imagine some consequences for overuse is scraping the bottom of your reserves and eating life force or life span similar to Kikoho, and that you may also "wear out" the pump. Causing some kind of damage to your ability to actually access your reserves.

Ki Refinement is a single minded application of Ki Control, where as Jaffur said you put your "thumb" over the end stream making it go faster. Now in real life this makes a fan of water which is going at high speed, usually, from what I recall last time I had reason to try it, so really silly high Ki Control is necessary to prevent your force from spreading. It would also likely create a sort of "pressure" in the system, and plausibly cause ruptures which would match all those times Jaffur exploded while developing it.

Looking at these analogies it would appear to me you could "in theory" mix all three of these techniques, but such efforts would be very unsafe due to the sheer strains involved on your ki system.
 
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