The bonus from Leopold doesn't stack we have seen that in previous quests.

The reason is that Leopold boosts Martial while Cosmic Power replaces Martial with Occult and as such the boost no longer counts there.

Some secondary things, considering that actions are finished mechanically at the end of the turn (well just before the RR to be precise) and there is a real chance for Liquidator to attack mid turn do think that even if we do the action to fix the avatar we couldn't use it in the crisis since it would still be under "repairs"

Also would Feldrake even has his bonus count for Malf afterwards in the counciler position? Since most "traits" don't take effect there
 
Could you find a source for that? In the items section, it says that Feldrake gives +12 to Occult and the ability to use Occult for combat, while Leopold gives a +7 to combat actions. Different stats, different bonuses. I see no reason they shouldn't stack.
OK, I now realize I was thinking of the fact they nerfed Leopold as he initially granted a +20, which would have put Janna just behind KHAN in combat power, and was deemed way too OP.
 
The bonus from Leopold doesn't stack we have seen that in previous quests.

The reason is that Leopold boosts Martial while Cosmic Power replaces Martial with Occult and as such the boost no longer counts there.

Some secondary things, considering that actions are finished mechanically at the end of the turn (well just before the RR to be precise) and there is a real chance for Liquidator to attack mid turn do think that even if we do the action to fix the avatar we couldn't use it in the crisis since it would still be under "repairs"

Also would Feldrake even has his bonus count for Malf afterwards in the counciler position? Since most "traits" don't take effect there
It doesn't say that Leopold boosts Martial, it says 'Leopold the Horrible - +7 to combat actions.' Are you sure? I checked some quest rolls, but they're somewhat opaque.

If Liquidator attacks mid-turn while we're fixing the Avatar, oh well. At least we tried doing something that would improve our chances. And we might manage to get it working through choices during the crisis, which we wouldn't be able to without choosing to work on it first.

Just according to RAW, Feldrake boosts Occult. It doesn't specify that it doesn't affect Councilor bonuses, and narratively, it makes sense that having another ancient wizard giving advice would boost the rolls. Which Councilor trait would you consider analogous that doesn't kick in?



Edit: There seems to be a contradiction between Behold, Your Stuff! and Janna's character sheet. The former says +7 to combat actions. The latter says Leopold the Horrible... offers Feldrake's wielder +9 to any Martial action directly related to combat.

Can we get clarification on which score it is and whether it takes effect on a modified Occult combat roll?
 
Last edited:
Just according to RAW, Feldrake boosts Occult. It doesn't specify that it doesn't affect Councilor bonuses, and narratively, it makes sense that having another ancient wizard giving advice would boost the rolls. Which Councilor trait would you consider analogous that doesn't kick in?
I believe we have Councilor descriptions, and those do list when a character has a special trait for the Council.
 
I think this isn't taking into account that Feldrake isn't just a +12 to Occult, he gives Phenomenal Cosmic Power, which allows using Occult for combat rolls. When applied to Malifishmertz, for instance, he'll go from a +5 on combat rolls to a staggering +57. That doesn't include any bonus from the avatar.
malf in particular's probably a bad call due to his instability and high levels of power/evilness unfortunately. the stats are strong but it'd mean giving him a bad influence, giving him power with which he could cause more problems, and asking him to do something he might not want to do
at the very least would seriously warrant managing him this+future turns in order to have him not blow up, which i don't think people want?
I assume that issues like that can be solved through narrative, it's probably not actual shackles. However, let's say that he can't be convinced to go back to Janna. That Feldrake doesn't want to go back. That's a price I'm willing to pay, right of association, free will, and stick slavery aside. We're in a situation where combat magic will be very, very necessary so our heroes don't die. Normal guns don't work all that well against water. Magic does.
eh, there may be something we can do to fix problems but i doubt it'd be in any way close to time-efficient to do and has risk of failing/being to expensive so not being done in future turns. seems better to not get into problems in the first place, or at least to give malf character growth before handing him more power (since it'd be easier to do so without a crutch+bad influence+obvious motive for having him become better)

meanwhile, while this may be obvious, feldrake is evil and we shouldn't trust him? like respect people's wishes, but at some point one person's well being becomes multiple people's suffering, at which point there's no obligation to go along with things. especially since in this case his desires are definitely selfish (give him more power/ability to do evil) and may be harmful to janna long-term
I believe we have Councilor descriptions, and those do list when a character has a special trait for the Council.
if you mean stuff like monnogram lowering (crit?)fail chance/dennis making people more likely to vote in our favor, those traits are more "special things they bring to the table"? so sort of different. I'd still be somewhat confident feldrake could boost a councilor's stats?
though there is the issue that they'd lose out on a lot of their advantages in direct combat when placed there, so isn't as good a deal as you may think.
besides, the councilor +6 bonus isn't actually as strong as you might think. it boosts two actions, but if we place it on someone who's doing an occult action we'd get the same amount of stats (and with more ability to focus it on a specific high DC action), so someone like kitsune might be a good call tbh


as for conversations regarding the avatar @Olivebirdy , while it has stats you need to at least consider factors like
1: the avatar's probably not the best at harming liquidator, seeing as how it's a big golem or whatever and liquidator can't be permamently harmed with physical attacks
2: the person using the avatar is probably going to have their hands too full to do combat normally, which if they're a spellcaster means less attacks hitting liquidator that can bypass his invulnerability. using someone who isn't particularly good on their own may be desirable, even.
3: liquidator can probably break the statue after a bit or even just go past it, adter which it's likely too slow to be a particularly relevant factor in the fight? so it's not like a +25 to every roll
4: messing with the statue has costs. both need to spend an action on it that won't be *super* useful long-term (since it's only relevant in defenses/might need managing to use again), and a need to let the operator spend time off to recover afterwards (note that this isn't nescesarily free if it's malf, we could end up losing their councillor bonus for the turn or something which could suck even more than losing a hero)
 
4: messing with the statue has costs. both need to spend an action on it that won't be *super* useful long-term (since it's only relevant in defenses/might need managing to use again), and a need to let the operator spend time off to recover afterwards (note that this isn't nescesarily free if it's malf, we could end up losing their councillor bonus for the turn or something which could suck even more than losing a hero)
Note, it isn't. Losing a hero is terrible.
 
Say, would it be possible to collate the different plans according to their differences once voting opens?

Would make it easier to understand for people which ones are more to their liking and all
 
I believe we have Councilor descriptions, and those do list when a character has a special trait for the Council.
After many months of hard work, you have finally unlocked your council! This mechanic allows you to assign hero units to council seats in return for bonuses on your national actions. Once a hero is assigned to a council seat, they will contribute half of their relevant stat, rounded down, to every national action. None of their modifiers or traits affect this bonus unless otherwise specifically stated.
It doesn't say items, but I'm now leaning towards Feldrake not supplying his boost to Occult before the bonus is calculated.

I still think 'losing' the staff is a worthwhile price to pay for much better rolls this turn.

Managing Malf in the future is a future problem. Personally, I think giving him Power and having him be a main force in repelling Liquidator will be incredible for his character development, but even if it's not, it'll help save our heroes' lives in the present.

Even putting Leopold aside until we get a GM clarification, pairing the wizards gives us a +50 to use in magical combat instead of a +5.

As for the Avatar being a block of physical stone, which isn't useful against water, well, a big mobile wall sure beats bullets. We're not really flush for great choices going up against a mobile flood, and a big stone giant is better than the average. He can be used for defense if nothing else.

I don't think it'll be a choice between using the Avatar and using magic. I expect that Malf would be possessing it and throwing spells at the same time.

If we have to give Malf or another hero time off, fine. Bad rolls this turn could mean losing heroes forever, it's worth paying.
 
Last edited:
It doesn't say items, but I'm now leaning towards Feldrake not supplying his boost to Occult before the bonus is calculated.

I still think 'losing' the staff is a worthwhile price to pay for much better rolls this turn.


Managing Malf in the future is a future problem. Personally, I think giving him Power and having him be a main force in repelling Liquidator will be incredible for his character development, but even if it's not, it'll help save our heroes' lives in the present.

Even putting Leopold aside until we get a GM clarification, pairing the wizards gives us a +50 to use in magical combat instead of a +5.

As for the Avatar being a block of physical stone, which isn't useful against water, well, a big mobile wall sure beats bullets. We're not really flush for great choices going up against a mobile flood, and a big stone giant is better than the average. He can be used for defense if nothing else.

I don't think it'll be a choice between using the Avatar and using magic. I expect that Malf would be possessing it and throwing spells at the same time.

If we have to give Malf or another hero time off, fine. Bad rolls this turn could mean losing heroes forever, it's worth paying.
I suppose? It feels weird, and slightly cheesy, but I suppose it makes sense?
 
It doesn't say that Leopold boosts Martial, it says 'Leopold the Horrible - +7 to combat actions.' Are you sure? I checked some quest rolls, but they're somewhat opaque.

If Liquidator attacks mid-turn while we're fixing the Avatar, oh well. At least we tried doing something that would improve our chances. And we might manage to get it working through choices during the crisis, which we wouldn't be able to without choosing to work on it first.

Just according to RAW, Feldrake boosts Occult. It doesn't specify that it doesn't affect Councilor bonuses, and narratively, it makes sense that having another ancient wizard giving advice would boost the rolls. Which Councilor trait would you consider analogous that doesn't kick in?



Edit: There seems to be a contradiction between Behold, Your Stuff! and Janna's character sheet. The former says +7 to combat actions. The latter says Leopold the Horrible... offers Feldrake's wielder +9 to any Martial action directly related to combat.

Can we get clarification on which score it is and whether it takes effect on a modified Occult combat roll?
I'd Rather Feldrake be given to a Hero then an already testy Mailinshmirtz, I doubt he'd like him at all, plus if we use Janna it's good to let her keep her main martial bonus for this turn at least.
 
Note, it isn't. Losing a hero is terrible.
ah, i meant "losing a hero for one turn due to them being tuckered out by controlling the robot is better than losing a councilor for the same reason", please don't interpret this as me being ok with killing heroes :(

a bit less awkwardly, part of the reason i'm against the avatar is because i personally don't think the chance of hero death is staggeringly high? we've prepared both advantages (buzzwords/dessicants) so should have a decent leg up already, and that isn't even counting the on-ice-inator giving us a win condition (potentially a blue one at that!) or the large bulk of hero units meaning any harm hopefully gets split throughout.

it's still a concern, but that (and paranoia actions like sending hero units away/dropping hero units off of actions needs to be weighted against the harm that missing out on progression will do long term
some safety measures like taking PnF out are probably worth it, but if we do all of them we're likely to just not achieve much at all this turn, which would suck when there's so much to do and so many other things to prepare against

with that in consideration, i'm not particularly keen on messing with the avatar due to the feldrake risks leading to possible problems and all the other things to progress occult that we could get done instead


Say, would it be possible to collate the different plans according to their differences once voting opens?
definitely approve of this, especially since it means plans that aren't visible don't just get buried or anything.
besides, a lot of plans are likely to be similar, it's just the specific combination of actions may vary (and because of this similarity they may be a pain to compare otherwise)
 
If we think that this turn won't be lethal, it makes sense not to spend Feldrake on boosting Malf. However, with as many warnings as the QMs have dropped this far, I am expecting some death.

It's the 'burning money to not freeze to death' issue. If you don't think you're in danger, it's dumb to burn money. If you are in danger, it's fatal not to.
 
If we think that this turn won't be lethal, it makes sense not to spend Feldrake on boosting Malf. However, with as many warnings as the QMs have dropped this far, I am expecting some death.

It's the 'burning money to not freeze to death' issue. If you don't think you're in danger, it's dumb to burn money. If you are in danger, it's fatal not to.
Fair. I'm coming around on the idea, although i'm not sure on the long-term.
 
If Malf is a no go for so many reasons, then how does Tobe sound as a safer alternative? Not necessarily this turn, if you REALLY want to keep Janna at the front line, but as a next staff wielder in general.

He seems to benefit the most from the total sum of Feldrake's bonuses, as he doesn't need to choose between Leopold's martial or the staff's occult for combat, but instead gains the former and ADDS half of the latter. If I'm getting the numbers right, in a crisis/quest scenario against a stronger enemy (Liquidator in this case), he'd be magically punching at 48 martial, while keeping a very respectable 29 occult out of direct combat.

Furthermore, there's plenty of other heroes available that are clearly stronger or eviler than him, so you're not soft-locking yourself if you want to trade again later, even back to Janna.

Only question is if he qualifies for a transfer. He's marginally weaker than Janna in Occult with a 2 point difference, but I'm fairly confident that dedicating years to revenge murder plots pulls slightly ahead of kleptomania in the hierarchy of evil. I would need confirmation on whether faking the devil's signature qualifies as an act of great evil or as an ironic act of good for inconveniencing the guy...
 
Last edited:
If Malf is a no go for so many reasons, then how does Tobe sound as a safer alternative? Not necessarily this turn, if you REALLY want to keep Janna at the front line, but as a next staff wielder in general.

He seems to benefit the most from the total sum of Feldrake's bonuses, as he doesn't need to choose between Leopold's martial or the staff's occult for combat, but instead gains the former and ADDS half of the latter. If I'm getting the numbers right, in a crisis/quest scenario against a stronger enemy (Liquidator in this case), he'd be magically punching at 48 martial, while keeping a very respectable 29 occult out of direct combat.

Furthermore, there's plenty of other heroes available that are clearly stronger or eviler than him, so you're not soft-locking yourself if you want to trade again later, even back to Janna.

Only question is if he qualifies for a transfer. He's marginally weaker than Janna in Occult with a 2 point difference, but I'm fairly confident that dedicating years to revenge murder plots pulls slightly ahead of kleptomania in the hierarchy of evil. I would need confirmation on whether faking the devil's signature qualifies as an act of great evil or as an ironic act of good for inconveniencing the guy...
I'm generally for Lizzy,even if she doesn't benefit as much from the bonus to Martial, it boith makes her a lot better at Quest, a better Fill unit, and lets Feldrake and Janna be in the same room still, which is really funny.

It helps Lizzy is a weak enough occultist that Feldrake is easy to take from her, even if she is more theoretically evil then Janna.
 
I'm generally for Lizzy,even if she doesn't benefit as much from the bonus to Martial, it boith makes her a lot better at Quest, a better Fill unit, and lets Feldrake and Janna be in the same room still, which is really funny.

It helps Lizzy is a weak enough occultist that Feldrake is easy to take from her, even if she is more theoretically evil then Janna.
I wonder if we can transfer from Mal to her...Hm...
 
Given he is more powerful and quite possibly more evil I don't want to take that chance. In general he seems like a horrible choice unless we want to permanently keep it on him.
Fair, fair. That's what concerns me. Giving him a massive buff for the sake of the Liquidator crisis seems cool, but he's the opposite of a skilled combatant and Feldrake can't be traded back.
 
oh, according to the discord moving malf onto the avatar would require either a personal action he doesn't have or to drop what he was doing that turn (removing counillor bonuses?)? so to do that we'd probably need to manage malf to give him a extra personal anyhow? and even that's assuming things would work fine if the avatar isn't built yet

If we think that this turn won't be lethal, it makes sense not to spend Feldrake on boosting Malf. However, with as many warnings as the QMs have dropped this far, I am expecting some death.

It's the 'burning money to not freeze to death' issue. If you don't think you're in danger, it's dumb to burn money. If you are in danger, it's fatal not to.
there's been talk about this on the discord, we've got lots of prep already so this most likely isn't needed to survive, meaning the question is if it costs more than it gains. my opinion regarding that is pretty firmly yes, though admittedly it is a matter of opinion
I wonder if we can transfer from Mal to her...Hm...
possibly but unlikely, evil is subjective and i think malf's closer to the ideal than lizzie, at least rom feldrake's perspective
 
Would the Augerino (+5 to non-public construction actions) add a bonus to trapping DEI headquarters?

What would the negotiations be for equipping the PMC with power armor? Goofy vetoed it because he's against violence. Janus abstained because it's unreasonably costly. Mirage vetoed it because it costs too much. Malf changed his support of it to a veto because we were asking Celena to fortune tell for us iirc.
 
Just to be sure @Made in Heaven would doing the repair action with the Avatar this turn allow it to be used during the crisis or is it to late to do that and the Avatar would still be being repaired during the attack

If the attack happens mid turn would we have options to still try to take advantage of it like the On-Ice or is the thing with the On-Ice a special situation

Also can Celena use the "It's the Future I Can See" trait while doing a personal or only if she is doing a National?
 
Last edited:
definitely approve of this, especially since it means plans that aren't visible don't just get buried or anything.
besides, a lot of plans are likely to be similar, it's just the specific combination of actions may vary (and because of this similarity they may be a pain to compare otherwise)

That and it admittedly has been quite some time since the last turn, so a quick breakdown of the different plans´ focuses might help people get back into the groove

Just to be sure @Made in Heaven would doing the repair action with the Avatar this turn allow it to be used during the crisis or is it to late to do that and the Avatar would still be being repaired during the attack

Probably depends on how the different actions line up - same as with whether we can fix the On-Ice-Inator in time
 
Janna has been able to cast on her own since Kitsune showed her titan glyphs in Try to Focus.
Loosing Feldrake tanks her Occult but doesn't lock her out of anything.
it is an idea, but the talismans may be more useful on others? just because janna is used to magic doesn't make her the best at it
It was brought up during the battle with Demona that Janna is way too reliant on dark magic, which would put her at a massive disadvantage during a rematch with the Sandersons. The glyphs help but I feel it is not enough. I want Janna to have the talismans as well as learn dance magic and Jo-Lan, because they make her branch out into other forms of magic that the Sandersons will have a harder time countering. Also, they should be less reliant on spoken invocations, making her less vulnerable to Burd's ability to change words. I can accept not giving her the talismans this turn, but she will likely need them when she faces the Sandersons again.
 
Last edited:
Would it possible to have a write in Action like:
[ ] Prepare the PMC
Liquidator is about to arrive at your doorstep, and while you've started making the On-Ice Inator you still have to figure out your plan to make it actually hit Liquidator. It could probably help to develop some premade plans for the PMC so they can plan if Liquidator makes a surprise arrival or how to best apply those boxes of desiccants that are sitting in the shadow of your building.

where we can increase our general readiness (narratively or mechanically) or something similar now that Liquidator's arrival is imminent? Or have we done all we can on that front already?

We're going to say no to this action. It's a bit cheesy, but more than that, it's not terribly interesting.

It states simply 'an action', not a national action. No matter what we have her doing we can also have her take a crack at something next turn.
Make... friends? might be a good option. Seems like the sort of personal that can have wildly different results depending on the roll.

Celena cannot divine personals, that is a bit too fiddly with no meaningful bonus. We'll adjust the wording of her actions to clarify.

One idea that was tossed around was '[X] [Stewardship] Build a Genetics Lab for Janus and Jumba outside the City', with the idea being to both make a better genetics lab and to prevent general problems from coming out of there when Jumba inevitably creates something horrifyingly dangerous. @Made in Heaven , is that a reasonable write-in or is that out of scope for a Big Idea/not something we could get benefits from?

This is not big idea-able. There's not much for Phineas and Ferb to latch onto or make fun and unique- even a top-notch genetics lab is going to focus on being quiet, safe, and replicable.

@Made in Heaven on the discord/earlier in the thread iirc we were talking about possible PnF big idea stewardship actions (that are safer), could we writein an action for for setting up an underground railroad for the transportation sector? ideally intended to be something that can extend to the whole nation (presumably needs tunneling tech/multiple actions/government cooperation for balance), so right now is probably more of setting it up just for danville or something as a testbed.
can go more into it if needed (and if the original person who brought it up could contribute that'd be good too), though my input basically just boils down to potential advantages/things to do with it, like being able to reach to various places of interest and back easily, messing with doom by undercutting their business, and being able to drop normbots/automated defenses (terror dromes once we research them?) in the way if there's suddenly an invading army or something

Underground high-speed rail for Danville would be Big Idea-able. This would not be terribly difficult overall, though you would need to take a lot of other actions to get sizable benefits out of it. What are you hoping to get out of it, mechanically, outside of industry standing and funds? A high-speed rail network in one city would not appreciably cut into Doom's investment in the transportation industry, and we would ballpark about 6-8 actions in order to get a transcontinental high-speed rail that goes through Danville.

Also, @Made in Heaven So, does feldrake grant a flat +12 tro anyone we give him to? How does this work, exactly?

Feldrake grants a +12 bonus to the wielder' occult, as indicated. The additional trait allows the wielder to use their occult score in place of combat rolls.

Just to be sure @Made in Heaven would doing the repair action with the Avatar this turn allow it to be used during the crisis or is it to late to do that and the Avatar would still be being repaired during the attack

It would depend on when the attack occurs.
 
Last edited:
Hm. I'm starting to come around on the Mal plan. A +50...Then again, it's for combat rolls, not general Martial...Hm...

Also, @Made in Heaven While you're here, what would Coyote and Goofy want to do Golumetric Theory?
 
Last edited:
Back
Top