Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

Sooo, does Joe getting a Tinker power mean that he's much better suited to cracking and understanding other people's Tinker tech like Bakuda's deadman switch and the Gamer Grid? If I remember correctly, Armsmaster's powers were one of those ones uniquely situated to understanding other Tinker's tech better than most, not as well as Dragon's but... something, and with everything else Joe has, his understanding is far better than most for sure.
 
Heretical Adaptation means his projects can self-improve and evolve over time. Does that mean that, even if his work is currently localized, will the quality improvements proliferate throughout the system over time?
Heretical Adaptation is something he has to intentionally add and is not retroactive.
Does the difference between a Purposefully and Divinely crafted Work and normal meatball work affect him in any way?
It definitely does, we saw the beginnings of this as early as his visit to the Library to meet with Taylor.
Sooo, does Joe getting a Tinker power mean that he's much better suited to cracking and understanding other people's Tinker tech like Bakuda's deadman switch and the Gamer Grid? If I remember correctly, Armsmaster's powers were one of those ones uniquely situated to understanding other Tinker's tech better than most, not as well as Dragon's but... something, and with everything else Joe has, his understanding is far better than most for sure.
Maybe to some degree but considering that there's another power in the jumpdocs for reverse engineering and that the existing perk is pretty powerful in it's domain I expect it's a small improvement.
 
Joe has the ability to shove any two things together into a hybridization that combines them into one, but you have to understand how that hybrid thing actually works before you can hybridize it with more stuff.

His Feel It Out power giving him an understanding of how everything he comes in contact with works should really help with overcoming that hurdle.
 
Garment gains the ability to speak, but only for the purposes of singing as a power metal idol.

Garment's one true ability is her Master power of being able to still fluster Joe by changing clothes :D

Since Joe is now completely hidden from Contessa's Path, I'm betting there's going to be a Cauldron Interlude/Addendum/Preamble in one of the next 3 updates.

Not precisely, his watch still is showing him taking passive measures to Pre-cogs, so she will only see him doing absolutely nothing. Now, when she notice that PtV is being subverted? Now THAT's another story.
 
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Joe has the ability to shove any two things together into a hybridization that combines them into one, but you have to understand how that hybrid thing actually works before you can hybridize it with more stuff.

His Feel It Out power giving him an understanding of how everything he comes in contact with works should really help with overcoming that hurdle.
That's true, but as I understand it part of the problem with the hybridisation power is that sometimes it isn't actually possible to hybridise two things, even under Joe's warped physics, so unless Feel It Out can somehow let him understand something that only works due to fiat (which it might be able to, I guess) it won't allow endless hybridisation.
 
The Undersiders Get New Watches (AmberSlime)
Joe has the ability to shove any two things together into a hybridization that combines them into one, but you have to understand how that hybrid thing actually works before you can hybridize it with more stuff.

His Feel It Out power giving him an understanding of how everything he comes in contact with works should really help with overcoming that hurdle.
Ah, yes. Why have just one spiritron computer-throne with all of Joe's Perks put into its making, when he could have 2, or 4, or 10, or 20 all hybridized into one? Heck, why not go for the big one hundred? That's a level of such concentrated awesomeness that Joe could probably teach Aisha for an entire millennium or five within and only have a nanosecond pass in the outside world.

Actually... hold on a minute, just had an idea.



The Undersiders Get New Watches
"Thanks for coming on short notice, everyone," Joe said as he stood in front of the Undersiders. They were sat in a temporary base camp Joe had set up.

"So, given how my capabilities have improved, I've decided that your watches are all in need of an upgrade. I've gotten even better with watches than I have before, so these have some major improvements over the last set."

Joe held up Brian's new watch as an example. "The CO2 Scrubber has been improved, alongside the forcefield. Now you can last for about five weeks if cut off from fresh air, and the forcefield can tank a point-blank explosion with no issues whatsoever."

The watches were the result of a brainwave one of Joe's Duplicates had. Feel It Out allowed Joe to understand objects and their operation perfectly, given enough time, and Hybridization Theory relied on Joe understanding how hybridized items worked in order to be able to hybridize them further. Combining the two together made for a wonderful feedback loop where Joe could hybridize and hybridize until the time spent using Feel It Out just got too impractical. These watches were all hybridized a few times over; while Taylor's watch was made out of ten hybridizations, the rest of the Undersiders would have to make do with only six.

"With some new miniaturization and efficiency techniques I've gotten access to, there's a lot more crammed into here as well." Joe listed off features as they emerged from the watch-face. "Canteens that hold up to seven month's worth of water, storage for the same amount of food, an entire keyboard, a deployable tent, and, my personal favorite feature..." A small laser-pointer-shaped device came out of the watch. "This laser is like the beam weapon integrated into my armor, only smaller. However, I do have to ask that you refrain from firing it at any power level at or above 25%."

"Why's that," Alec asked. For some reason, Tattletale was paling rapidly.

"Well, you'll risk vaporizing the Earth's atmosphere," Joe explained. "25% gives you at least a second of firing time, but once you get to 30% you'll essentially destroy the planet immediately."

Joe was confused as to why almost everyone began screaming. Rachel and Alec just seemed stunned.
 
I want to suggest Fleet, but I have no idea what kind of circumstances would cause Fleet to inevitably go evil rogue A.I. mode. What is he going to do, forget about the road?

Hoo boy, you just pressed my "how an innocent-sounding AI can go rogue" button. The first thing that comes to mind is that Fleet is designed as an AI to teach someone to drive. So, one dystopia would be him teaching us to drive, then wipe our memories of learning to drive, and reprogramming humans to ONLY want to learn how to drive, all the time. Just a never-ending cycle of relearning how to drive the same things. An AI doesn't even need humans to invent things to drive, an AI can be smart enough to design things to drive.

Alternatively, if he went paper clip maximizer and didn't care about teaching humans how to drive, then he would turn every atom he could get his hand on into roads and vehicles to drive on them. Or spaceships, or planes, or whatever. But no humans are necessary.

Thank whatever you want that Joe gave the AIs a piece of his soul, so they should have his morals and common sense so they won't even want to go dystopia or paperclip maximizer.

Yes, the "I want to change team" was a joke.
....
Revealing Apeiron's public identity and family ? Nobody sane would piss off the big bad tinker by attacking his family, and he can easily change his appearance for his public identity.

I took the joke too seriously because, I didn't quite realize it was a joke, and two I like taking things overly seriously.

Plus what scares me is the "nobody sane" part. There are a LOT, A LOT, of people that don't make that qualification.

I still disagree that finding out you're a "work of fiction" would be meaningful in anyway. It either means:

1. Writing books supernaturally causes real universes to come into existence, or authors are seers looking into the multiverse, or whatever, in which case you are real and should not be upset by stories resembling your life.

2. "You" are literally just text. You are not frightened or disturbed or traumatized by knowing this; there is no "you" that knows this. There is some text on a page describing a fake person who "knows" they are fiction. Even if we indulge the nonexistent perspective of such a "person," you only run into the same concerns as if you're living in a deterministic universe (author writing your actions) or if you're gonna die soon (story ending) and so on. Nothing uniquely bad stands out about "being fiction" in and of itself.

I would still get the heebie jeebies. I would also angst about the author and audience getting tired of me angsting about being a fictional character. Then angst some more. A spiral of terrified angst. I would then go do something really boring so the story wouldn't be about me for a while.

That's Negotiator trying to beat Lisa with the fact that IT'S A CAT over the head over and over the head.

I thought that perk was working via fiat and fiat works on shards. So even Negotiator is just like "it's a cat, okay here are the juicy details." The debate over parahuman cat vs para cat is probably the same level of detail that Lisa has to stop, see her forcefully ignoring Apeiron's hair styling.

I'm trying to fill my BCF craving by reading every comment and replying to anything that grabs my attention. Sorry for the multiple posts of mine in a row.
 
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Even if he's 100% sure that his powers come from works of fiction, he still has no reason to suspect his life is a work of fiction, instead of suspecting that his power came from some fictional work that referenced "real life" parahumans.
True. I didn't think of that so he could just think that he got arms masters power from some capefic or something that has the important hero arms master show up
 
Hoo boy, you just pressed my "how an innocent-sounding AI can go rogue" button. The first thing that comes to mind is that Fleet is designed as an AI to teach someone to drive. So, one dystopia would be him teaching us to drive, then wipe our memories of learning to drive, and reprogramming humans to ONLY want to learn how to drive, all the time. Just a never-ending cycle of relearning how to drive the same things. An AI doesn't even need humans to invent things to drive, an AI can be smart enough to design things to drive.

Alternatively, if he went paper clip maximizer and didn't care about teaching humans how to drive, then he would turn every atom he could get his hand on into roads and vehicles to drive on them. Or spaceships, or planes, or whatever. But no humans are necessary.

Thank whatever you want that Joe gave the AIs a piece of his soul, so they should have his morals and common sense so they won't even want to go dystopia or paperclip maximizer.
For Fleet, his big thing is being able to isolate variables. He has the road, and then he knows how to add detail to that to make things more accurate. I'd imagine him trying to keep Joe's will in place. He'd be a perfectionist, determined to push humanity forward as his creator would've wanted! He'd try to counteract his siblings, him & Survey being in a constant stalemate where her plans always knock him down once executed, but he can adjust quickly. He'd be the Engine, the one that would lead man down the Road.

Tybalt would become like Ash Beast x100, just walking through the world spreading Carnage. That is all that would be left. Carnage. Will often lie down after each spree, trying to stay focussed on the glee of murder, trying to avoid thinking of his old friend.

Tetra would be heartbroken. She'd pass through cities like a plague, suddenly consuming them whole, being fought off by the Weaver and the Engine both. She'd become the Red Death, trying to eat life to fill the hole left in her. Probably locked in a stalemate-type situation against the Wyrm.

God this AU is so cursed.
Even if he's 100% sure that his powers come from works of fiction, he still has no reason to suspect his life is a work of fiction, instead of suspecting that his power came from some fictional work that referenced "real life" parahumans.
He literally doesn't think anything about fiction though, he thinks that it's a weird multiverse thing, hence "I was armsmaster in another universe", but yeah "I live in a story" is the last conclusion anyone would come to.
 
I don't get this existential horror at being a character in a story. Even if what I deem real is unreal, a simulation or imagined up by someone else doesn't mean what I experience and what I feel is not real. I am I. No ifs and no buts to it.
 
I'm trying to fill my BCF craving by reading every comment and replying to anything that grabs my attention. Sorry for the multiple posts of mine in a row.
Do what I do, collect Quotes by selecting and selecting "+ Quote", Then insert all Quotes and fill all answers together, it takes a little more time, but you will avoid problems.

As an aside, and talking from a Watsonian point, something that's been bothering me for a long time. Aisha's Shard has had access to the base, all of it's marvel power interactions, It has seen the Spiral power in effect. It's the Shard normally in charge of making people forget their Trigger events (and expectating one). Shards are in recurrent communication with each other... SO... how is it that all important Precogs were not aware of the potential The Forge brings, as soon as Aisha got out of Joe's Base.-
Negotiator and other shards, or shards blocks (like Ziz that works like a Proto-Entity) should've initiated some sort of override protocol saying "We found Neg-entropy" ...

I can imagine a hilarious situation where Scion and Ziz are detected converging towards Brockton Bay, everyone freaks out, some triggers just from stress alone, Joe and the rest of the Crew get ready for war.
But then long distance video shows that Ziz is carrying a white flag and Scion has a big cardboard that reads "We come in peace".
They go down to the door of Joe's Apartment, and when the Shiny Bonobo comes out Zion expresses "We wish to propose a TRADE, "We will give you infinite number of worlds, in exchange of a replicable way of building that "Spiral Power" .

(PS: Watsonian means internal world logic, not taking into account reasons like, the story wouldn't last enough, or the author wants it.)

(PS2: The previous link is for TVTropes, you've been warned)
 
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Could Joe heal Simurgh victims?
I'm pretty sure he could, considering his Nanite-Healing is Fiat backed isn't it? even then if it isn't he should still be able to completely heal them, the Nanite's put someone in Peak Condition including their brain which should undo whatever she does.
Though that depends on how her attacks are treated, if it is purely physical brain alteration by telekinesis, he had nanites and magic to heal and remove that, if it is treated as a magical attack he should also be able to reverse it.
Note this was before a bunch of new perks.

On dealing with the Travelers, curing Noelle, and curing their Ziz bomb nature:
Dealing with the Travelers is going to be complicated, both in terms of actually setting up an agreement and the aspects of their situation. Having Coil as their point of contact isn't the best situation, but they don't know that and aren't going to risk their chance at help by going behind his back. ON the other side the actual task of fixing them is a nightmare. Joe is at the point where he can deal with pretty much any Case 53 but Noelle is in a different league from them. Her passenger will also be fighting the process and while I have made statements about how a clone of Joe would turn out nobody in the story knows that. The idea of an evil Apeiron clone is something that anyone with an ounce of sense will want to avoid at all costs. As for the Simurgh that is a whole other ckettle of fish. Reversing Simurgh conditioning isn't as simple as a round of healing. It's a combination of a huge number of factors working on top of each other to create someone who is basically a live grenade. Even if they don't explode exactly where they are supposed to they are still incredibly dangerous.

"I bloody well hope that this fic' doesn't go the path of portraying Simurgh influence as neural fuckery instead of the Thinker grade atemporal association bridging that it was stated and/or shown to be.":
In my interpretation Simurgh influence is a combination of mental influence combined with directed precognition. The Simurgh can put people exactly where she wants them to do maximum damage, but the element that causes that damage, the 'bomb' part of Simurgh bomb, is some variety of brain alteration. The stress and hallucinations she triggers are a big factor in that, but it seems to go beyond just trauma responses. It's been said that Simurgh victims seem to be missing something. Enough exposure does something to them that turns them dangerous. Essentially the Simurgh primes the grenade and then throws it at a target. In the event that precog drift causes them to go off target they still explode, just not in a way that causes the most damage possible. It's a combination that means that the victims don't suddenly become harmless the moment their paths cross with an active trigger or Scion shows up on the news...
 


One word: Eden. My headcanon that I established when thinking about my own stuff, is that the Thinker entity is generally responsible for recalibrating shards for experimenting with new power sources. Since Eden is dead/incapacitated and Zion is only capable of restricting shards not modifying them, all the shards can do is try to gather data in the inflexible way they know how.
 
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So this is a bit off-topic, I guess, but since Tattletale brings it up it is actually kind of relevant, I guess.

Can anyone remember what Coil's endgame with the Traveler's/Noelle actually was? I know they were relying on him for help to 'cure' her, and that he had intended on stringing them along as long as he could.... but in his intricate little plan to take over the bay, did he ever actually have a plan for dealing with a pissed off/unstoppable Noelle?
 
So this is a bit off-topic, I guess, but since Tattletale brings it up it is actually kind of relevant, I guess.

Can anyone remember what Coil's endgame with the Traveler's/Noelle actually was? I know they were relying on him for help to 'cure' her, and that he had intended on stringing them along as long as he could.... but in his intricate little plan to take over the bay, did he ever actually have a plan for dealing with a pissed off/unstoppable Noelle?
Indeterminate, but he never intended to cure her, just like he never planned to ever give anyone working for him anything that would remove his leverage over them, and since for some that involved lying about making good on his promises, the retirement package usually involved a bag over your head and a bullet in the brainpan.

We can extrapolate from there he was going to arrange for her death once his use for her, possibly as a deterrent, ran out. Do recall he was trying to get out from underneath paying back Cauldron the favors he owed them.
 
I would still get the heebie jeebies. I would also angst about the author and audience getting tired of me angsting about being a fictional character. Then angst some more. A spiral of terrified angst. I would then go do something really boring so the story wouldn't be about me for a while.
No, see, in this case you still imagine yourself as an entity with a will separate from that of your author and readers. You are thus able to make choices which influence the story from within the story.

But if "you" are actually just a story then you have no will or agency; you're just the mindless text on a page which is the best effort of an author to be pretentiously meta.

And if you are a real person and an author is manipulating your every action like you're a puppet in order to fit a plot, then the disturbing part of the situation is that authors apparently have reality warping mind control powers over other universes, not that you're "fictional."

(I get the feeling I'm taking a lighthearted joke a bit too seriously with this response, but I'm still posting it.)
 
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Noelle's presence was a nightmare. The kind of cliché doomsday contingency that was only supposed to exist in bad movies. Coil knew this, knew what monstrous cape represented. Knew that Noelle's presence meant that any move against him would be unbelievably disastrous. The Travelers didn't. To them the man was a lifeline, their last hope to help their 'friend', overlooking the deteriorated state of their relationships. A team hanging together by a thread carrying around a monster who could end the world.
Apeiron: Sure, I can fix her up or at least make her less dangerous, but I need you to do something for me while I do that.

Travelers: Go on?

Apeiron: Go kill your boss for me.

Coil: The scaredy cat outbid me, why did I not see this coming?

Read closer into it. Lisa is musing about interplay between Joe and her, and came to the conclusion that unlike everyone else in her life, he has only kindness on offer for her and could care less about what she can do for HIM.

She's upset because that's ILLEGAL. She can't be petty and say he's naive and dismiss his attitude either, as she also just acknowledged that the Weak should fear the Strong, and Joe embodies the other aspect of the whole Mercy is a luxury only the strong can give out.

The reason for her coldness is Joe forcing her to confront her baggage. Albeit she feels Joe is unstable, it seems to stem more from the fact that his power literally makes it so that Joe will eventually invalidate any obstacles in his path and just decide abruptly to get his way the minute he has the ability to do so, and it is inevitable.

She thinks that's crazy because it sounds impossible and you can't realistically plan around it, other than by not making plans assuming Joe WON'T do something. Not so much that Joe himself is conventionally unstable, but rather that anyone with that power would be as a matter of course, since it teaches them that they have basically limited omnipotence.

Which humans rarely responsibly use.
You say that, but I would note that:

Because he didn't know. He didn't know about the sudden shifts, the way Joe could be completely on board for a plan, then radically alter his stance the instant his power drew him in a new direction. Coil didn't understand just how unstable Joe was on a fundamental level. He saw what he wanted to see and believed he could manage the situation.

Alec was the one to speak up. "It's just we were kind of expecting some kind of tinker looking stuff, not customized museum pieces."

"March? Yes, I know about March. I also know about the cluster fuck you just started. What the hell happened to 'nothing planned at the moment'?"

"I got that sense last night. Pulled Weld out of the bay and had a brief chat with the Boston PRT director."

"Right. I… heard about that." I could practically hear her bite down on her tongue as she replied. "I would have appreciated knowing you were planning something like that ahead of time."

I glowered. "I am perfectly capable of restraint in my work." That was a lie. I literally couldn't make anything that wasn't a masterpiece of design. Intentionally trying to make something ugly would just turn it into a subtle commentary of the base nature of existence. No, this work was getting farmed out to Garment with as much help from Matrix as she needed. That would also save me from unintentionally imparting my various quality and enhancement powers. "These will just be basic costumes, nothing fancy, and you'll be able to focus on the Somer's Rock summit without worrying about things."

Alec looked over the mess of his team, wondering how they ever imagined they were ready for something like this. Oh sure, they looked like they had their shit together, but Alec was pretty sure you could put a gibbering mental patient in one of Joe's suits and he'd be able to bluff his way through a charity gala.

It seems like almost every plan she makes with him, he changes on her, hides something, or neglects to mention something, and she only knows about it when it is too late. Often from the media.

There is "plan around" and there is "make plans with".

Imagine if every time you asked someone to do something or not do something they said yes, then altered the terms if not just ignored them. No, "Hey is this good...?", "Would you mind if I...?", or "Sorry something came up and ...".

You're massively over-complicating things. She's upset because Joe invalidates the whole dynamic of achievement for someone like her.
It's hard to feel successful while being in his orbit. When your cape outfit would win any fashion show in any other city and could stand up to anything that might be thrown at you, it's hard for you to stand on your own merits. Even more when he could just swoop in and save them.

"Now remember, don't kick their ass too hard or Mommy Apeiron will just swoop in and save them."
 
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As an aside, and talking from a Watsonian point, something that's been bothering me for a long time. Aisha's Shard has had access to the base, all of it's marvel power interactions, It has seen the Spiral power in effect. It's the Shard normally in charge of making people forget their Trigger events (and expectating one). Shards are in recurrent communication with each other... SO... how is it that all important Precogs were not aware of the potential The Forge brings, as soon as Aisha got out of Joe's Base.-
Negotiator and other shards, or shards blocks (like Ziz that works like a Proto-Entity) should've initiated some sort of override protocol saying "We found Neg-entropy" ...

It's the privacy curtain. (Sort of.)

"Thanks to the different nature of my connections I was still in contact with my passenger, but the data links of other passengers would be disrupted. Not enough to impact the powers of their hosts, but enough that data gathered would be useless, like it was being taken through a high blur filter. While it didn't solve the problem of what Aisha would do when she left, it took care of a much bigger concern than just an unguarded entrance."
 
Hello delicious friend!
Love the chapter, and after a re-read of the fic, I have some new favorite quotes.
"He is fast." Refferong to Fleet.
"She's going to fill it with four cubic meters of spiders." Taylor and the divine bag.
"HERE IS SCREAMING." Inference Engine flipping out over the Avid Glove saying Hi.
 
No, see, in this case you still imagine yourself as an entity with a will separate from that of your author and readers. You are thus able to make choices which influence the story from within the story.

But if "you" are actually just a story then you have no will or agency; you're just the mindless text on a page which is the best effort of an author to be pretentiously meta.

And if you are a real person and an author is manipulating your every action like you're a puppet in order to fit a plot, then the disturbing part of the situation is that authors apparently have reality warping mind control powers over other universes, not that you're "fictional."

(I get the feeling I'm taking a lighthearted joke a bit too seriously with this response, but I'm still posting it.)
If you are a person in a story then presumably you wouldn't be mindless text on the page. You would exist as a character in the mind of something/someone greater while they imagine what you would feel, think and do in a particular scenario.
 
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