Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

So, can Joe turn down the effects of his powers?

I just had an image of him helping Ms. Gartenburg? By changing a flat tire.

Her old Cadilac now gets fully tuned & upgraded by changing the tire.

The fact that he can't has been a huge problem for him, it basically ruined his plan to get a source of legitimate income by doing mechanic work.

realistic logical ideologist
my first thought: i understood that reference

my second thought: dammit no I didn't, I just underestimated how much of a weeb Vazkii is [that phrase is the name of one of the first achievements you get in Botania, a Minecraft mod]
 
...why does he need money?
this was before he was as well established as he is now, though AIUI having the appearance of legitimate employment would still simplify things for his relationships with his family and his gym friends.

it's not about the money per se (though that was a concern early on before he had access to Survey who can probably do any money laundering he needs*), it's about "having a job" in his civilian identity.

*speaking of money laundering, how about that Number Man contact?
 
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I meant the Coil not being dangerous statement as a more "Should you and this person be put in a boxing ring and then are told to fight, he's technically no more dangerous than an average human."
Even then, Coil would still have his pretty high "Speech skill". Maybe he's not as charismatic as Kaiser, but he know how to talk, and how to use people weak points, be it desires or fears.
And even in straight fight withouit any way to escape, or to talk with his opponent, or anything else, he still at least twice as dangerous as average human just because he can choose between two moves/actions every time.

The threat, in my eyes, comes less from Coil directly, and more from Coil's resources and all the different contingencies he has set up. Striping those away leaves what essentially amounts to a normal person.
I think you too focused on direct firepower as a measure of how dangerous someone is.
You must remember, that everything Coil has now is the result of his own efforts. Ten years passed between Ellisburg and the beginning of the canon (perhaps a little less).
Some time to heal, then tribunal or whatever, then some time to look for power before Cauldron contacted him. Then years of market play to pay them his debt. And I doubt that was only two years, especially since he, most likely, didn't have significant amount of cash to start with. And because he had to be very careful to not be noticed by the Watchdog.
After that, he had to start from scratch again, now to get money for himself. And in a, by my estimation, at most five years, he got everything he have at the start of canon.
Even if you'd strip his from everything he have currently, in a few years he will be back and ready to blindside you... Well, if Gold Morning will happen in two years, he probably wouldn't have enough time to build his strenght back fully. But that's a different question.
 
I think you too focused on direct firepower as a measure of how dangerous someone is.
You must remember, that everything Coil has now is the result of his own efforts. Ten years passed between Ellisburg and the beginning of the canon (perhaps a little less).
Some time to heal, then tribunal or whatever, then some time to look for power before Cauldron contacted him. Then years of market play to pay them his debt. And I doubt that was only two years, especially since he, most likely, didn't have significant amount of cash to start with. And because he had to be very careful to not be noticed by the Watchdog.
After that, he had to start from scratch again, now to get money for himself. And in a, by my estimation, at most five years, he got everything he have at the start of canon.
Even if you'd strip his from everything he have currently, in a few years he will be back and ready to blindside you... Well, if Gold Morning will happen in two years, he probably wouldn't have enough time to build his strenght back fully. But that's a different question.
the idea that Coil is going to somehow build himself back up from scratch again implies that you're stripping away All of Coil's resources and then just... letting him go. You go through all of the work to figure out Coil's identity and funnel all of the cash out of his number-man insured bank accounts, foreclose his supervillain base or whatever, etc. and then you're done?

I really doubt that Coil's market manipulation had to be very careful at all - he just invests in one timeline and doesn't invest in the other. if the investment succeeds, he keeps the timeline and is simply "a good investor". if the investment fails, he drops that timeline and starts over. What's watchdog going to do about it? Arrest him for being too lucky?

Coil's primary advantage is that he's mostly unknown. the moment that anyone with significant resources (the PRT, Joe, Accord, The Undersiders during the warlord arc, etc.) seriously goes after him, it's over.
 
I really doubt that Coil's market manipulation had to be very careful at all - he just invests in one timeline and doesn't invest in the other. if the investment succeeds, he keeps the timeline and is simply "a good investor". if the investment fails, he drops that timeline and starts over. What's watchdog going to do about it? Arrest him for being too lucky?

But that would involve him keeping the exact same two timelines going for weeks on end...how would he have time to do any supervillianing? I would think it would be hard to tell how good an investment is going to be if you just had the course of a day to decide it..
 
What's watchdog going to do about it? Arrest him for being too lucky?
I expect the real job of Watchdog isn't to prevent parahumans from manipulating markets. It is to contain, subvert and recruit parahumans that could interfere with Cauldron's manipulation of the markets. Coil might have a particular arrangement with Numberman/Cauldron regarding the use of his abilities.
 
But that would involve him keeping the exact same two timelines going for weeks on end...how would he have time to do any supervillianing? I would think it would be hard to tell how good an investment is going to be if you just had the course of a day to decide it..
I'm pretty sure he didn't start Supervillaining until after he'd gamed the stockmarkets sufficiently to make inroads into his debt. It also allowed him to get used to using his powers, without risk of any unexpected interactions resulting in him getting Heroed into hospital or jail.

Once he hit a critical mass of money, lower-risk investments can be used for a more secure income, with the occasional splurge into unusual territory. (Split the timeline, hack into a couple of companies to review if they're about to make announcements that might push their share prices up, drop timeline to erase evidence…)
 
I hope everything is going well for you. I'm a bit worried since it's been a while since your last update. I'm eagerly awaiting it, but don't want my encouragement to backfire.
 
I hope everything is going well for you. I'm a bit worried since it's been a while since your last update. I'm eagerly awaiting it, but don't want my encouragement to backfire.
As far as I'm aware, Roustabout just had a hectic week last week and didn't have the time to make a chapter that suited his standards. He's not injured or anything, he just decided to take an extra week for quality assurance purposes.
 
the idea that Coil is going to somehow build himself back up from scratch again implies that you're stripping away All of Coil's resources and then just... letting him go. You go through all of the work to figure out Coil's identity and funnel all of the cash out of his number-man insured bank accounts, foreclose his supervillain base or whatever, etc. and then you're done?
I see you point, but the question is "how dangerous by himself, without any of his resources and countingences". And I had to point that all of those he gained through his own efforts.

Coil's primary advantage is that he's mostly unknown. the moment that anyone with significant resources (the PRT, Joe, Accord, The Undersiders during the warlord arc, etc.) seriously goes after him, it's over.
That may be said about most parahumans, and I'd say Coil is way better protected agains it than most of those.
PRT? He have moles and backdoors to keep them in check, and at least to some extent influence their course of actions. At the very least, attack wouldn't be a surprise to him, and he'll have time to flee, if he'll think he can't take it.
Joe... well, Serious Joe is unstoppable force for anyone short of Zion. Even Endbringers, currently, can't win against him if he'd go all out. But Coil, at least, have enough contingences that could buy him some time. Not many people can achieve even that.
Accord? Thomas befriended him. Unless Coil would massively fuck things up, he wouldn't attack.
The Undersiders? They're, except Taylor, been fine with working for him.
And I'm sure that he have moles among the Empire and Merchants too.

Do you say that Tinkers not dangerous? Without their tech they're just humans, without any power at all. And "the moment that anyone with significant resources seriously goes after them, it's over" true for most of them too, even those like Bakuda.
 
Even Endbringers, currently, can't win against him if he'd go all out.
If the Endbringers continued sandbagging, then Joe would win in a fight (unless the Simurgh does March levels of BS).

If the Endbringers weren't sandbagging... Joe would need to make specific preparations. His remade heart confers (I'm assuming) him some metaphysical protection and magic resistance. Parahuman abilities are counted as magic. That should prevent Leviathan from ripping every water molecule from his body, prevent Behemoth from using his nervous system to give him a heart attack, and the Simurgh from shredding his brain.

He also has magic resistant metals that can protect his whole body, as well as Elven Enchanting to bestow a degree of conceptual understanding.

However, the Endbringers have a lot of raw power. I don't know if Joe could withstand it unless there's a super high-end or fiat-based material I'm overlooking.

To defend against that, he will need to go very, very, conceptual. Avalon levels is what I would hope for.
 
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That may be said about most parahumans, and I'd say Coil is way better protected agains it than most of those.
PRT? He have moles and backdoors to keep them in check, and at least to some extent influence their course of actions. At the very least, attack wouldn't be a surprise to him, and he'll have time to flee, if he'll think he can't take it.
Joe... well, Serious Joe is unstoppable force for anyone short of Zion. Even Endbringers, currently, can't win against him if he'd go all out. But Coil, at least, have enough contingences that could buy him some time. Not many people can achieve even that.
Accord? Thomas befriended him. Unless Coil would massively fuck things up, he wouldn't attack.
The Undersiders? They're, except Taylor, been fine with working for him.
And I'm sure that he have moles among the Empire and Merchants too.
I will now refute
1. it's not about the PRT launching an all-out attack on him. It's about them Paying Attention to coil's operation and using their resources to investigate. I doubt that Coil can outwit thinker support. The primary use of the moles would be in allowing him to Stay unnoticed
2. obviously.
3. I was listing "people/organizations who have the resources to easily take out Coil, should they decide to". Accord is one of those people. Besides, it's Accord - he murders people for being too ugly. Coil is easily the type of guy who might eventually slip-up in a way that makes Accord decide to take him out.
4.
A) Lisa is demonstrably uncomfortable with working for Coil under her current arrangement and intends to tell Joe about it soon, if memory serves B) I was referencing how Taylor and Lisa, noted Undersiders, successfully defeated Coil in canon. Once again, the prompt wasn't "people who Would go after Coil" but "people who could defeat Coil, under the prerequisite condition of Already having decided to go after him."
If the Endbringers continued sandbagging, then Joe would win in a fight (unless the Simurgh does March levels of BS).

If the Endbringers weren't sandbagging... Joe would need to make specific preparations. His remade heart confers (I'm assuming) him some metaphysical protection and magic resistance. Parahuman abilities are counted as magic. That should prevent Leviathan from ripping every water molecule from his body, prevent Behemoth from using his nervous system to give him a heart attack, and the Simurgh from shredding his brain.

He also has magic resistant metals that can protect his whole body, as well as Elven Enchanting to bestow a degree of conceptual understanding.

However, the Endbringers have a lot of raw power. I don't know if Joe could withstand it unless there's a super high-end or fiat-based material I'm overlooking.

To defend against that, he will need to go very, very, conceptual. Avalon levels is what I would hope for.
I think the Lathe metal he got in one of the last few chapters might stack with Fashion to prevent the "ripping apart the water that comprises his body" thing, and possibly also the Simurgh depending on whether it's "telekinetically altering your brain structure" or "psychic/psy-equivalent mind-waves that directly attack the metaphysical/conceptual structure of your mind".

Also, I'm pretty sure that whether or not Joe could withstand the raw-power of a no-holds-barred Endbringer-punch is debatable. His gear is durable to such an extreme level that the only way to meaningfully improve his defense at this point is to start accounting for exotic effects and hax.
So, basically, Coil is a tryhard Edgelord wannabe, whose power is simply the equivalent to reading both options of a CYOA adventure before you decide which one you're going to pick?
Coil is has the Choose your own adventure power with a mindset consisting of the "competence" espoused by SV&SB users, with the actual competence-level of those same forum users. "If I had that power, I would simply game the stock market! Become a supervillain! Kidnap a powerful pre-cog to synergize with my power! Hire mercenaries! Stay undercover! Secretly hire cape-teams!" and then continually does dumb shit like keeping a potential S-class threat (that he can't control very well) in his base, showing off the child pre-cog he drugged and kidnapped to the undersiders, personally attend Skitter's intended execution (iirc), and continually looking like an idiot in front of his subordinates.
 
That should prevent Leviathan from ripping every water molecule from his body
and the Simurgh from shredding his brain.
ripping apart the water that comprises his body" thing, and possibly also the Simurgh depending on whether it's "telekinetically altering your brain structure"
Neither those two can do it, there like Zero canonical evidence they can even do it. Heck it even confirm that in Ward Ziz couldn't do the brain thing you said or even grab people with her TK, the same with leviathan, their both Manton limited. The only exception to the rule is Behemoth but the thing is that only happens if your in his aura range but outside of the aura range he's Manton limited.

I got WoG and evidence that proves plus confirmation from Wildbow on the Endbringers limits, and no they can't break anything said limitation that's pure fanon, those limitations are there to stay similar like how a Parahuman have restrictions on their own powers(except for the extreme cases)

Edit: if you want it, I will just wait until someone reply
 
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Huh, that doesn't make much sense. But maybe it's just another aspect of The Cycle, the Entities putting restrictions on the Endbringers (lifted as needed) to test stronger shards in combat against hosts.
 
Huh, that doesn't make much sense.
It make sense because it was pre-program by Eden, the Endbringers were originally supposed to been able to be beaten by the host species as a form of not only promoting conflict but also motivation on creativity. Tho originally the Endbringers shouldn't have been that tough. Here's some WoG on that
sending "Endbringer Lites" to break them up.[7]
But instead it turn out them being stronger but not strong enough to break the parameters/limits they were design with, that was originally set up by Eden. As this avoids making the Endbringers strong enough to be a possible threat to the entities if they ever go rogue.
 
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If the Endbringers continued sandbagging, then Joe would win in a fight (unless the Simurgh does March levels of BS).

If the Endbringers weren't sandbagging... Joe would need to make specific preparations. His remade heart confers (I'm assuming) him some metaphysical protection and magic resistance. Parahuman abilities are counted as magic. That should prevent Leviathan from ripping every water molecule from his body, prevent Behemoth from using his nervous system to give him a heart attack, and the Simurgh from shredding his brain.

He also has magic resistant metals that can protect his whole body, as well as Elven Enchanting to bestow a degree of conceptual understanding.

However, the Endbringers have a lot of raw power. I don't know if Joe could withstand it unless there's a super high-end or fiat-based material I'm overlooking.

To defend against that, he will need to go very, very, conceptual. Avalon levels is what I would hope for.
The Endbringers are actually manton limited, other than Behemoth's kill aura. When Wildbow said the Endbringers are Sandbagging, he meant that Leviathan could attack cities without even surfacing, instead of allowing other capes a chance to fight him. Their pure power level doesn't increase.
 
Huh, do we have a definitive power level for Endbringers? Any WoG or a feats list? I mean, we know Leviathan sunk Kyushu during a prolonged battle against Lung, but how much of that was caused by Leviathan and not Lung?
We have quite a bit of durability info on Endbringers from WOG. I think there is more offensive capabilities posted somewhere but I honestly can't remember nor find other quotes right now.
 
Not really. You may clarify you points, but to refute mine's, you have to prove that Coil at least at the lower half of the list of people who can face attention from any major force.
You said:
Coil's primary advantage is that he's mostly unknown. the moment that anyone with significant resources (the PRT, Joe, Accord, The Undersiders during the warlord arc, etc.) seriously goes after him, it's over.
I argue that he way better at facing any of listed forces than most of the individual parahumans or parahuman gangs.

I repeat my question: "Do you say that Tinkers not dangerous? Without their tech they're just humans, without any power at all. And "the moment that anyone with significant resources seriously goes after them, it's over" true for most of them too, even those like Bakuda."
Or what about one of the most famous warlords, Moord Nag. Any one of the Triumvirate could beat him. Undersiders, likely, could do it as well in right circumstances. Accord, with time to plan - obviously. Apeiron, the Enigmatic Artificer, shouldn't even be mentioned, because he playing in another league. Does that mean he's not dangerous? I don't think so.

Oh, and one thing I have to point:
it's not about the PRT launching an all-out attack on him. It's about them Paying Attention to coil's operation and using their resources to investigate. I doubt that Coil can outwit thinker support. The primary use of the moles would be in allowing him to Stay unnoticed
First thing first - moles' main purpose is information gathering. And they, likely, would at least warn him about any investigation, so he'll be able to take actions he'll see as more appropriate. Put on hold his more risky operations. Gather blackmail on those who will in charge of the investigation, or see how to bribe them. Just gather his belonging and flee - they have many other threats to look for, therefore, they cannot afford to commit a significant amount of resources for a significant period to look for him.

And about outwit Thinker support... I think you forgot, that Tattletale - canon Tattletale, with all her misinterpretations and malign loops - is pretty high level Thinker. So as most examples we see in fanon most of the time - Dinah, Coil himself, Contessa, Accord... Most of them isn't nearly as precise or reliable, like Hunch or Eleven Hour.
And don't forget that Thinkers' (especially precogs') powers tend to interfere with each other. So, against two fairly powerful Thinkers (Coil and Dinah), most of Protectorate Thinkers precogs will have trouble to get anything accurate.

Coil is has the Choose your own adventure power with a mindset consisting of the "competence" espoused by SV&SB users, with the actual competence-level of those same forum users. "If I had that power, I would simply game the stock market! Become a supervillain! Kidnap a powerful pre-cog to synergize with my power! Hire mercenaries! Stay undercover! Secretly hire cape-teams!" and then continually does dumb shit like keeping a potential S-class threat (that he can't control very well) in his base, showing off the child pre-cog he drugged and kidnapped to the undersiders, personally attend Skitter's intended execution (iirc), and continually looking like an idiot in front of his subordinates.
That's magnificient and I'll bookmark it. :D

The Endbringers are actually manton limited, other than Behemoth's kill aura. When Wildbow said the Endbringers are Sandbagging, he meant that Leviathan could attack cities without even surfacing, instead of allowing other capes a chance to fight him. Their pure power level doesn't increase.
IIRC, there was a WoG that they have some unexpected options that they can use when in danger, like how Ziz revealed in Madison that it can "borrow" Tinker powers. But yes, whatever they use, they use in full power.
 
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