Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

The Ziz is totally unable to see into the Workshop, she'd have no ability to tell how long it took or what he did to make it. Furthermore, the Ziz copies the abilities of Tinkers around her, and it's debatable if Joe even counts as one for the purposes of hijacking, ignoring the token that, again, negates mind-reading. If the Simurgh is able to see that far without using her Scream, and she isn't, then she already knows the majority of his construction speed thanks to the 'three day tech' meme.

And for the E88, here's the thing: they're a gang whose initiation rites demands the murder of a minority. None of their capes can stop the MC for more than a half minute if he goes all out, and he has total information control. There's also three of him, and a bevy of options to use remote controlled drones to minimise other collateral. Again, this is all abilities he's already shown.
Ziz is unable to see into the Workshop, but she is perfectly capable of seeing outside of it. Anything created by Jo outside of the workshop (like the omni-tool drones Jo typically flash fabricates) could expose abilities such as his Rome crafting speed, which is something that Ziz can then plan around. Also Ziz is perfectly capable of making her screams mentally inaudible, so for all we know she could already be utilising the full extent of her precognitive powers to assemble enough power to bring Jo to his knees. This is even without noting the relative fragility of Jos defences; if he could be separated from key defences (pin and armour pieces) he is vulnerable. A powerful precog, such as Ziz, would be more than capable of taking advantage of this weakness if given enough information to prepare an appropriate offensive. As such ANY new information of his abilities is dangerous, no matter how inconsequential it might seem to us.

In regards to the potential E88 offensive using subpar tech; I have concerns that this strategy would expose Jo to the precog abilities of Ziz, but let us assume that this isn't the case. I agree with your assessment that Jo can defeat all the E88 in relatively short order using the tech that he has already shown and there is little they could do to stop him. But in this scenario it is unlikely to be just E88, most villain organisations that have territory will likely ally together to take down Jo as he poses a existential threat to them and their organizations, and I am unconvinced that Jo could win this fight using just his old tech. But even assuming he could, the collateral damage in this scenario would be significant and that is enough to bring someone of Jos calibre to the negotiating table.
 
But in this scenario it is unlikely to be just E88, most villain organisations that have territory will likely ally together to take down Jo as he poses a existential threat to them and their organizations, and I am unconvinced that Jo could win this fight using just his old tech.
That's… the E88, Coil, and the Merchants? Maybe Faultline's crew, but they're mercenaries, through and through, and the Undersiders would probably lean towards Joe in that scenario. Lung's already dead, Dragon's in BB, the PRT still, y'know, exists, and Joe could outnumber the remaining villainous capes with himself and 'drones'.
 
Readers should remember that beyond any healthy concerns Joe has regarding Ziz. He is someone whose childhood Tinker hero got completely mindraped and turned into one of the most terrible assassins in the world .-
He is terribly afraid, and he does have reasons to be afraid on top of that, so this will color all his thoughts and actions.-
 
On the Nazi-smashing subject, a thing to keep in mind is that Joe, for all the power he has, needs to be careful when wielding that power. If he chooses to go after the Nazis, then he has to deal with the fact that they know they'll lose, and will become desperate. Cornered rats won't be dangerous to Apeiron, the Enigmatic Artificer - but they would be very dangerous to the city they're living in. Nazis with nothing to lose cause more damage then normal Nazis, and Brockton Bay is still in shambles after the big ABB showdown. Another big conflict would be devastating at this time. Not to mention that if Apeiron, the Enigmatic Artificer goes after the E88, the other villains in Brockton will believe they are next and probably do something very stupid in an attempt to avoid being wiped out. It's a powder keg that blows the second Joe indicates he's not as mercenary as he presents himself. This fact is even explicitly pointed out by Lisa in-story.

As such, as long as the Nazis don't go too far in their normal operations, it might produce a better outcome over all for Joe to leave them alone while the city recovers and Joe builds up strength to take them out cleanly without collateral damage.

Yes, from an emotional standpoint it feels better to not allow the Nazis to operate at all, but starting another big gang fight might legitimately be worse if Apeiron, the Enigmatic Artificer, isn't careful about it. And being careful about it might mean waiting for a more opportune time, or some kind of excuse for why he's going after the Empire that won't set off the other villains.

Also, the calculus for cape fights with the Celestial Forge is different then a normal power. Buying an extra few days of time results in enormous gains, so delaying a confrontation is a very strong strategy.

...I'll admit though, Joe unilaterally deciding "screw the collateral damage, Nazis in the Bay ends now" would be more satisfying then the conservative approach.
 
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Not to mention that if Apeiron, the Enigmatic Artificer goes after the E88, the other villains in Brockton will believe they are next and probably do something very stupid in an attempt to avoid being wiped out. It's a powder keg that blows the second Joe indicates he's more heroic then mercenary. This fact is even explicitly pointed out by Lisa in-story.
I hate it but your right those damn Nazi would most likely throw a Hail Mary or something spiteful as a last middle finger for Joe(which Coil does have the bastard) those Nazi won't go quietly without causing as much collateral as they can to hurt Joe indirectly(just like the S9). Ugh but it true it's a matter of time before Joe becomes so OP that won't matter.
 
That's… the E88, Coil, and the Merchants? Maybe Faultline's crew, but they're mercenaries, through and through, and the Undersiders would probably lean towards Joe in that scenario. Lung's already dead, Dragon's in BB, the PRT still, y'know, exists, and Joe could outnumber the remaining villainous capes with himself and 'drones'.
Dragon is more an asset for the villains, the PRT is close to being controlled by Coil so they are unlikely to be useful and if Jo wants to hide information from Ziz then Tetra is out. It would be a close fight.
 
Dragon is more an asset for the villains, the PRT is close to being controlled by Coil so they are unlikely to be useful and if Jo wants to hide information from Ziz then Tetra is out. It would be a close fight.
Okay, I feel it needs to be established; nothing the villains have in BB can even scratch him. Nothing any of them can do can mess his paintjob if he uses lathe-metal. If he doesn't, then Sundancer might give him a tan while he abuses thermal defences to shrug it off anyway.

BB cannot give Joe a 'fight', it can slow him down while he dismantles them one by one. Joe is ridiculously, hilariously overpowered, and if the entire rest of the story up to Golden Morning was written without a single new perk being bought, he'd still probably be fine. The only question here is if the gangs could theoretically cause enough collateral to make him hesitate, and that's gonna be up for debate for about three in-universe days.
 
the PRT is close to being controlled by Coil so they are unlikely to be useful
He isn't the director yet. If ever, in this timeline. The most he can do is subtle sabotage when the opportunity arises, and not to the extent of severely hampering PRT operation; just making things more annoying and worse looking for certain people's reputations.
Jo wants to hide information from Ziz then Tetra is out.
Tetra has been outside before, and her new abilities are things Joe already had. I wouldn't say it's too dangerous to bring her along.
Joe is ridiculously, hilariously overpowered, and if the entire rest of the story up to Golden Morning was written without a single new perk being bought, he'd still probably be fine.
As strong as Joe is, I think it's pretty absurd to claim he's already Zion-tier.
 
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Okay, I feel it needs to be established; nothing the villains have in BB can even scratch him. Nothing any of them can do can mess his paintjob if he uses lathe-metal. If he doesn't, then Sundancer might give him a tan while he abuses thermal defences to shrug it off anyway.

BB cannot give Joe a 'fight', it can slow him down while he dismantles them one by one. Joe is ridiculously, hilariously overpowered, and if the entire rest of the story up to Golden Morning was written without a single new perk being bought, he'd still probably be fine. The only question here is if the gangs could theoretically cause enough collateral to make him hesitate, and that's gonna be up for debate for about three in-universe days.
Yes if Jo goes all out then there is nothing that they can do, but if he sticks to tech and abilities that has already been shown to avoid Zizs information gathering the fight is not in Jo's favour.

And as you pointed out; if you give Jo a week he could probably take Ziz with no problems, then go Nazi stomping. But for now this is simply not the case.
 
As strong as Joe is, I think it's pretty absurd to claim he's already Zion-tier.
I feel it's important to note the timescale of this fic. It has been about three weeks since the start of the story proper, and in it, about the last week has involved the majority of his actual tech development, disconnected from perk acquisition. Golden Morning, assuming Jack's defeat goes the way it did in canon, where he gets to talk to Scion, is over two years in the future. Should Jack be stopped before he can set off Scion, that rises to over a decade.

Can you imagine how much he can do in a decade? Already, his tech development is restricted basically by his own whims, since he can expand his bases' processing power by orders of magnitude almost effortlessly, and the forces he has now is terrifying. If he wanted to, he could outfit small armies in his gear within weeks, and if he felt like using automation, do the same with weaker gear for country-sized militaries in months. He isn't Zion tier, and the Endbringers are a danger, but he could just figure out dimensional travel with a few years and the greatest supercomputer seen outside of entities, and bugger off after leaving behind a few people to keep his ideals going.
 
Okay, I feel it needs to be established; nothing the villains have in BB can even scratch him. Nothing any of them can do can mess his paintjob if he uses lathe-metal. If he doesn't, then Sundancer might give him a tan while he abuses thermal defences to shrug it off anyway.

BB cannot give Joe a 'fight', it can slow him down while he dismantles them one by one. Joe is ridiculously, hilariously overpowered, and if the entire rest of the story up to Golden Morning was written without a single new perk being bought, he'd still probably be fine. The only question here is if the gangs could theoretically cause enough collateral to make him hesitate, and that's gonna be up for debate for about three in-universe days.
Actually WoG is that Damsel can still hurt Joe, so the E88 still have a card to play against Joe, even if it's an incredibly flimsy one. Still though, I'm curious to see how it'll turn out in the end.
 
Actually WoG is that Damsel can still hurt Joe, so the E88 still have a card to play against Joe, even if it's an incredibly flimsy one. Still though, I'm curious to see how it'll turn out in the end.
Yeah Damsel can still hurt Joe but here's the problem Joe is quite fast and since the E88 don't have a thinker in the level of March to set up events to even make possible at most the threat of Damsel can consider a small confort against a mover:yes, a blaster: hell yeah, Trump: you can't stop this guy, tinker: unlimited celestial forge works.
 
I doubt we have that much time before Joe sets him off due to becoming an actual threat to him.
Scion doesn't care about threats to him, is the thing. Dude's just depressed and looking for meaning in his existence. If he was anything beyond cripplingly sad at all times he'd have done something like investigate C53s, or figure out why the EBs were activated, anything. Instead he spends his time listening to a homeless man, hoping that maybe doing what he says will make him feel better.

The EBs are the ones more likely to actually target him, and even they're operating on 'make Eidolon's power schlong feel big'.exe rather than any actual real goal.
 
Given Bakuda's Blood/Bone/Everything? Cancer is it possible that Oni Lee is also at his End? Or was it a Leet One-Off Heal that could not be reused on Bakuda? Either way I trust the Lord to make the ABB last stand enjoyable.
Oni Lee is functionally braindead at this point, lying down in an underground medical bed for a doctor who may never arrive. If he has cancer, that's just one extra :/ for him. I don't think any last stand is gonna happen. Bakuda is just at the edge of her rope, but the moment the Deadman's Switch is down, she's basically cut loose.
Scion doesn't care about threats to him, is the thing. Dude's just depressed and looking for meaning in his existence. If he was anything beyond cripplingly sad at all times he'd have done something like investigate C53s, or figure out why the EBs were activated, anything. Instead he spends his time listening to a homeless man, hoping that maybe doing what he says will make him feel better.

The EBs are the ones more likely to actually target him, and even they're operating on 'make Eidolon's power schlong feel big'.exe rather than any actual real goal.
Zion has taken the doomer pill on this cycle; I think an existential threat to him could make him move.
 
Maybe if it directly threatened him, but we're talking about the same dude who got bullied into a sadness coma. It'd need to be an active threat legitimately coming for him.
IDK about that. The Shardspace Rifts are an issue that he found important enough to deal with, and I suspect that he didn't just Still the minovsky particles that vanished. He is now at least slightly interested in the cause of that, I imagine. If he thinks he's fucked, I doubt he's just gonna take it like in the hypothetical Apollyon timeline. He's altered his mind quite a bit since that.
 
As strong as Joe is, I think it's pretty absurd to claim he's already Zion-tier.
There's a lot for Joe to progress in the tech-trees he already has access to at this point, like piecing together his various magic systems and stuff like the star-trek sciences that provide principles rather than designs. I think it's feasible that Joe could continue to grow rapidly, even without more CF rolls. There's also just like, the regular process of R&D, reverse-engineering and analyzing tinker-tech with the laboratorium and applying those principles, etc. Especially if he put aside his revulsion towards bio-tinkering and shit. The power-level that Apeiron displays is him actively holding back to avoid Simurgh-intervention. He's not necessarily Zion-tier but within the several years until GM he could theoretically get there, depending on how desperate-times-desperate-measures he was willing to go. but that's just a theory.

IDK about that. The Shardspace Rifts are an issue that he found important enough to deal with, and I suspect that he didn't just Still the minovsky particles that vanished. He is now at least slightly interested in the cause of that, I imagine. If he thinks he's fucked, I doubt he's just gonna take it like in the hypothetical Apollyon timeline. He's altered his mind quite a bit since that.
Zion altering his mind is exactly the thing that caused him to get bullied into the sadness coma, though. "The thinker is not showing up. must be dead. the cycle is fucked. oh god my emotions are turning on. despair."
Zion is just this super-depressed partway-human alien with magic-science powers. he does heroism because some guy told him to. he starts doing violence because jack slash tells him to. he repairs shard-connections when he notices them because they're broken. he just watches people fight to the death and thinks "that's weird, broadcast is super in-sync with this violent guy, but broadcast was never a violent shard. weird."
So i don't think it's a matter of importance, but a matter of going through the motions. he saves people, he fixes broken corona-pollentias and shard-connections and shit, he gets kittens out of the trees, because he has nothing else to do. he notices a strange new exotic particle? "huh, weird. i'll take some." he notices a rift to shardspace? "that shouldn't be there. better fix it."
At least, that's my take on Scion's behavior in this fic. He might end up fighting Apeiron at some point, but I imagine it'd be the same as the way he fights the endbringers - just blast him until he runs away. another day saved. That or he's acquiring a taste for murder and violence, and the BCF-equivalent of GM is starting.
 
There's a lot for Joe to progress in the tech-trees he already has access to at this point, like piecing together his various magic systems and stuff like the star-trek sciences that provide principles rather than designs. I think it's feasible that Joe could continue to grow rapidly, even without more CF rolls. There's also just like, the regular process of R&D, reverse-engineering and analyzing tinker-tech with the laboratorium and applying those principles, etc. Especially if he put aside his revulsion towards bio-tinkering and shit. The power-level that Apeiron displays is him actively holding back to avoid Simurgh-intervention. He's not necessarily Zion-tier but within the several years until GM he could theoretically get there, depending on how desperate-times-desperate-measures he was willing to go. but that's just a theory.
Also the way I see it he's solidly at the point where he could start figuring out Shardtech in general. Doing so would be hella risky, but if he fucked off to another dimension, or just handled it in the workshop only, I feel like he'd be able to figure it out with a few years. It's really hard to describe just how few research problems can't be resolved with practically infinite computation power.
 
Also the way I see it he's solidly at the point where he could start figuring out Shardtech in general. Doing so would be hella risky, but if he fucked off to another dimension, or just handled it in the workshop only, I feel like he'd be able to figure it out with a few years. It's really hard to describe just how few research problems can't be resolved with practically infinite computation power.
Potentially. Ultimately, though, it depends on how much of that he's able to learn in the years leading up to GM, and whether he can convert that into actual Endbringer-busting or Scion-busting tech. Also, he doesn't necessarily know exactly what shards are capable of (despite knowing how shards operate), or the actual power-level of Endbringers or Scion, or that Scion is someone he should be preparing to square up against.
 
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