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Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

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Daym said:
Given Bakuda's Blood/Bone/Everything? Cancer is it possible that Oni Lee is also at his End? Or was it a Leet One-Off Heal that could not be reused on Bakuda?
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Well, Leet, presumably, have good enough healing tech that he can use for himself and Uber after their escapades, and I doubt it one use items (at least, not only). So, Oni Lee may be healed by him.
Why not Bakuda? There's at least two possibilities:
1) Leet's tech can't regrow limbs.
2) Bakuda is too prideful to use tech of the other Tinkers, and wanted to prove she can do it herself.
I suspect a bit of both.

Or maybe Bakuda used one of the cancer-bombs on him. Then yes, he's on the same timer as she is.

Daym said:
The ABB had 3 Annihilator Capes (March, Bakuda's Bombs multiplied by Oni Lee and potential Leet Tech) along with super timing, precision and coordination and still failed. Given Apeiron's demonstrated mass destruction Skills their greater Cape Number is highly likely not going to change the outcome especially without a thinker.
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Look, that's more like nuclear weapon in our world. The weapon that intended to prevent fights: "Are you really, 120% sure that you can guaranteely intercept all of our missiles? Only 96%, you say? Do you want to take that 4% risk, or talk like civilized people?".
Here the very same situation.
 
Bombastus said:
Technical Certainties (Ace Combat) 400:
Some engineers are always second guessing themselves, sticking to maintenance of machines that others use. You're so sure of your skills that you're capable of altering fighter planes to great effect, making them noticeably better than they were fresh out of the factory. Upgrades will be easy provided you have resources, and your technical prowess will ensure your plane can serve whatever role you wish of it. You could even slave the controls of ground weapons to your computers, becoming a conductor of war from the skies. You might even be knowledgeable enough to build the next superweapon...
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Koraan said:
"Are you really, 120% sure that you can guaranteely intercept all of our missiles? Only 96%, you say? Do you want to take that 4% risk, or talk like civilized people?".
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Hmmm. 🤔

Well, at any rate, sometimes you have to take the risk. And Nazis are certainly a valid and righteous reason to do so. It's not like they are Ziz or anything, no need to hide in his workshop and do his 126th upgrade before acting. He's already survived a cape that was "worse then the Endbringers", that he was convinced he had nothing possible to protect him against.

Come on, Apeiron, the Enigmatic Artificer. You are the sole wielder of Spiral Energy, the only incarnate child of Olympus on this Planet. You don't have to compromise with Nazis. Ahem. Okay, maybe I'm getting a bit too obsessed here.

I should probably take a time out.. from this issue at least.

Edit: Okay, I do have another thought of how Jozef could help himself besides another upgrade. Just like he created a named object to help Aisha with her powers, he could do the same to help him with some of the ones he is having trouble with, or just some of the ones he wants to emphasize.

A nice place to start would be with his 4 Minor Blessings.

It was often traditional for those who had particular connections to certain deities to carry or wear small tokens to honor that connection. In Jozef's case, it could do more than just honor it, but strengthen it as well. Four small amulets--lets say, a Peacock Feather, a Crescent Moon, an Owl, and a stylized Flame.
 
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AntaeusTheGiant said:
Well, at any rate, sometimes you have to take the risk.
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Indeed. But they wanted an annihilator cape, because without one there wouldn't be any risk for him to take.
When one side have all the power, there's no diplomacy or dialogue, only statements. And Kaiser want to avoid that (when it's not him who have all the power, of course).
They want to have a reason for Apeiron, the Enigmatic Artificer, to listen and consider their proposals and arguments, rather than wave it off because he can take everything he wants by force without any risk.
Because, you know, they'd act like that in his position.
 
Koraan said:
They want to have a reason for Apeiron, the Enigmatic Artificer, to listen and consider their proposals and arguments,
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I... don't actually want him to listen to and consider their proposals and arguments.

Yeah, I'm really squeamish about this upcoming meeting. I really love this story, and want to continue to do so, but I've dropped stories before over compromise with Nazis. In fact, I stopped reading the original Worm itself for quite a while after the Purity interlude because I thought it presented her in much too sympathetic a light.

Edit: actually, I have found a perfect meme that acurately illustrates my opionion on compromise with Nazis. Caution for Language and possible Gore.

 
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AntaeusTheGiant said:
I... don't actually want him to listen to and consider their proposals and arguments.
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I explaining their reasons, not trying to convince you, or anyone else, to do anything. Only to understand why they did what they did.

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FourmyleOfCeres said:
Scrub's the anhiliator, Whirlygig also joined.
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There's also the guy (or maybe girl) with barrier power:
LordRoustabout said:
Additionally two new capes, presumed to be fresh triggers, were also present. They identified themselves as Whirlygig and Slush."

Survey explained things calmly while also providing supporting information through the network as she spoke, mostly in news snippets, police reports, or bits of media that had been shot earlier in the night.

"Through public demonstration of their powers Whirlygig is able to exert telekinetic force on objects, though appears to be limited to rotating them in a counterclockwise direction centered on her body. Slush was observed generating barriers of a loose material similar to wet snow but without any reported temperature drop. Barriers were not particularly stable, but remained in place without active input from the cape.
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AntaeusTheGiant said:
I... don't actually want him to listen to and consider their proposals and arguments.

Yeah, I'm really squeamish about this upcoming meeting. I really love this story, and want to continue to do so, but I've dropped stories before over compromise with Nazis. In fact, I stopped reading the original Worm itself for quite a while after the Purity interlude because I thought it presented her in much too sympathetic a light.
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Well Apeirons choices are going to be between a compromise with neonazis or potentially losing a fight against Ziz. From a utilitarian framework the decision is fairly obvious.
 
Jiggy000 said:
Well Apeirons choices are going to be between a compromise with neonazis or potentially losing a fight against Ziz. From a utilitarian framework the decision is fairly obvious.
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I don't think kicking Nazi ass will alert the Simurgh any more than kicking ABB ass. I'd imagine Joe's (potential) lack of action just reflects a desire to not send the city into another gang war. Not that I'm agreeing or disagreeing that that's the right thing to do in the situation.
 
TitanFrost said:
I don't think kicking Nazi ass will alert the Simurgh any more than kicking ABB ass. I'd imagine Joe's (potential) lack of action just reflects a desire to not send the city into another gang war. Not that I'm agreeing or disagreeing that that's the right thing to do in the situation.
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Any tech that is used outside of the thinker-proof workshop is a potential weakpoint that Ziz (and other thinkers) can exploit. If Jo wanted to curbstomp E88 (and other villains) with minimal personal risk then he will need to pull out tech that he would probably want to save for the fight with Ziz. I do agree with your assessment that this is Joe's predominant concern, but he is quickly reaching the point with his abilities and technology that calling any potential conflict with a gang a 'war' is simply hyperbole.
 
prussiangrandier said:
@LordRoustabout
Could Amy even do anything to Joe at this point? Like if he specifically didn't fight back and allowed her to get full contact?
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Here's a recent WoG relating to that on the topic of Lathe metal:

"Another property that's interesting is the immunity to material alteration, does that mean Joe would be immune to biological alterations as well, like if Amy somehow touched him?":
Amy used pseudo biological mechanisms for her power. You could argue that molecular alteration is part of it, but it's really altering cells and enforcing biological changes. The fact that it doesn't work on non-living material is an aspect of that. Joe could actually potentially establish an effect that would resist Manton limited powers through examination of Weld's tissue sample, since Weld is favorably Manton limited.
 
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Jiggy000 said:
Any tech that is used outside of the thinker-proof workshop is a potential weakpoint that Ziz (and other thinkers) can exploit. If Jo wanted to curbstomp E88 (and other villains) with minimal personal risk then he will need to pull out tech that he would probably want to save for the fight with Ziz. I do agree with your assessment that this is Joe's predominant concern, but he is quickly reaching the point with his abilities and technology that calling any potential conflict with a gang a 'war' is simply hyperbole.
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He doesn't even need to pull out much tech at all. Magical materials and forging alone would let him wipe the floor with any cape in the city. He could go in naked and win handily via abusing projection and alchemy. At this point, anything he isn't resolving is basically because he hasn't gotten to it yet.
 
Execute/Dumbo said:
He doesn't even need to pull out much tech at all. Magical materials and forging alone would let him wipe the floor with any cape in the city. He could go in naked and win handily via abusing projection and alchemy. At this point, anything he isn't resolving is basically because he hasn't gotten to it yet.
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But even that might be giving away too much information.

If the villains are even remotely reasonable then having a diplomatic resolution will be the preferred outcome. Please remember that if Jo becomes mentally manipulated by Ziz then it is all over for Earth Bet. Would you risk destroying the world just for the sake of removing a gang of neo-nazis?
 
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Jiggy000 said:
But even that might be giving away too much information.

If the villains are even remotely reasonable then having a diplomatic resolution will be the preferred outcome. Please remember that if Jo becomes mentally manipulated by Ziz then it is all over for Earth Bet.
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Giving away what information? The information he's given away a dozen times over before now? Alchemy was one of the first abilities he ever got, and magic has been something he's been consistently applying. The Ziz already wants to mentally manipulate him, like she does everybody in every fight ever, and showing off his strength by beating the E88 is going to pale in comparison to him fighting Lung at endbringer-level rampup.

He could defeat the entire E88 with just the abilities he's displayed in actual fights. He could take over the entire city by mass producing basic drones and blackboxing them so they require his personal touch to maintain. He could develop an entire suite of combat gear using zero valuable materials via abusing the 50/50 chance to make the gear work without it anyway within a day, tops, and that would be entirely impossible for the Simurgh to replicate without also having his perks.

Edit: Like, look. I'm not taking a stance on handling the E88 (well, I am, because they're nazis whose initiation ritual demands murdering somebody), but I am saying that every problem the MC has is something he could resolve in under a week, easily. He doesn't have to make compromises, or suboptimal choices, or anything. Nothing in the city could take him at this point.
 
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Execute/Dumbo said:
Giving away what information? The information he's given away a dozen times over before now? Alchemy was one of the first abilities he ever got, and magic has been something he's been consistently applying. The Ziz already wants to mentally manipulate him, like she does everybody in every fight ever, and showing off his strength by beating the E88 is going to pale in comparison to him fighting Lung at endbringer-level rampup.

He could defeat the entire E88 with just the abilities he's displayed in actual fights. He could take over the entire city by mass producing basic drones and blackboxing them so they require his personal touch to maintain. He could develop an entire suite of combat gear using zero valuable materials via abusing the 50/50 chance to make the gear work without it anyway within a day, tops, and that would be entirely impossible for the Simurgh to replicate without also having his perks.

Edit: Like, look. I'm not taking a stance on handling the E88 (well, I am, because they're nazis whose initiation ritual demands murdering somebody), but I am saying that every problem the MC has is something he could resolve in under a week, easily. He doesn't have to make compromises, or suboptimal choices, or anything. Nothing in the city could take him at this point.
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That would be correct, if it weren't for the fact that the mental rewire time by ziz is caused by her sandbagging, she can specifically target joe if she wishes and keep the rest the same. Also ziz doesn't know the full extent of alchemy or magic. She also runs on intent not potential. Say I can cure cancer everywhere but I don't want to release that? She's fine with you. If you want to release that, THEN she goes after you. (Bad example using cancer but was the only one I could think of)
 
Cheetored20 said:
That would be correct, if it weren't for the fact that the mental rewire time by ziz is caused by her sandbagging, she can specifically target joe if she wishes and keep the rest the same. Also ziz doesn't know the full extent of alchemy or magic. She also runs on intent not potential. Say I can cure cancer everywhere but I don't want to release that? She's fine with you. If you want to release that, THEN she goes after you. (Bad example using cancer but was the only one I could think of)
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She can't mindread Joe, though. Badge stops it. She'll never realise his intent.
Edit: On top of that, like I said, Joe doesn't even need to use alchemy's full potential. He could win entirely via what he's already displayed.
 
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Execute/Dumbo said:
Giving away what information? The information he's given away a dozen times over before now? Alchemy was one of the first abilities he ever got, and magic has been something he's been consistently applying. The Ziz already wants to mentally manipulate him, like she does everybody in every fight ever, and showing off his strength by beating the E88 is going to pale in comparison to him fighting Lung at endbringer-level rampup.

He could defeat the entire E88 with just the abilities he's displayed in actual fights. He could take over the entire city by mass producing basic drones and blackboxing them so they require his personal touch to maintain. He could develop an entire suite of combat gear using zero valuable materials via abusing the 50/50 chance to make the gear work without it anyway within a day, tops, and that would be entirely impossible for the Simurgh to replicate without also having his perks.
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Obviously information on the abilities he has gained since the fight. An example that comes to the top of my head is the ability to make an entire anti-Endbringer mech in seconds. This may be valuable information for Ziz to possess and it is something that Jo could give away by making a mistake when creating a single drone. I agree that Ziz already wants to puppet Jo, but giving her more information seems dangerous considering the scale of her precognition.

To be honest I hadn't even considered her ability to replicate tech, but that just reiterates how dangerous this fight with Ziz is already going to be. And yes Jo could defeat the entire E88 using old tech, but doing so will risk lives and, considering the number of abilities Jo can't turn off, might still expose vital information to Ziz.
 
I feel like we are going to get that miniaturization/efficiency perk next chapter just because of all the debating going on about Ziz. Forge-chan is a troll that way. We already saw it with Faultline lol.
 
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LordRoustabout said:
It was worth it. The material was lathe metal. The exact alignment of cosmic and gradational forces necessary to produce a material like that were beyond even my expansive understanding, but the effects were another story. The atomic bonds that held the material together were reinforced on a level I could barely believe. In addition to a level of durability that made adamantium look like a joke and thermal resistance exceeding the highest grades of ceremite it had a structure that was completely inviolable to forces that would seek to undermine it.

Basically, anything that targeted molecular bonds or arrangement was useless against lathe metal. It would laugh at the destabilizing effects of power fields, the destabilization of high frequency weapons, and even magic that attempted to alter the material's structure would fail. There was no easy way to circumvent it. The only way through it was with massive and overwhelming force.
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LordRoustabout said:
Conventional durability was no longer a real concern for me, but this was different. First, it wasn't just conventional durability, it was protection against any class of annihilator effect based on disintegration, melting, or material alteration. Secondly, it wasn't just a matter of keeping ME safe. Lathe metal was just about the best defensive material possible. Strong, light, flexible, thermally non-conductive, and immune to effects that bypassed durability. The armor I could make out of this would keep people safe like nothing else in existence.
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Daaaaaamn. Lathe metal is ridiculously powerful. ... Actually, it's way more powerful here than it is either in the perk description:
LordRoustabout said:
Lathe-Wrought Armour Plating Kit (Light of Terra DLC 4 - Lords of the Iron Line) 400:
The astronomical and gravitational alignment of the Lathe worlds creates the conditions for the production of metal alloys of rare and singular properties. Lathe armour plating is strong and light, flexible enough to withstand the most powerful blows, and even resistant to intense heat or the crackling edge of a power weapon. The cost and rarity of such an upgrade is beyond the means of most individuals, with maybe only half a dozen sets of Lathe-wrought armour upgrade kits constructed in a decade, each created under commission for a specific wearer.
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or in its original setting:
Rogue Trader - Hostile Acquisitions p63 said:
Lathe-Wrought
The astronomical and gravitational alignment of the Lathe worlds creates the conditions for the production of metal alloys of rare and singular properties. Lathe armour is strong and light, flexible enough to withstand the most powerful blows, and even resistant to intense heat or the crackling edge of a power weapon. The cost and rarity of such armour is beyond the means of most individuals, with maybe only half a dozen suits of Lathe-wrought armour constructed in a decade, each created under commission for a specific wearer.
Effect: A suit of Lathe-wrought armour weighs half the normal amount and increases the AP by 1, as each suit of Lathewrought armour is inherently of Best Craftsmanship. In addition, the Pen value of any attack made against a character wearing a suit of Lathe-wrought armour is halved, rounding up. The improved AP from this upgrade does not count for purposes of armour penalties to Silent Move and Concealment Tests.
Upgrades: Any Carapace or Power Armour.
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I guess all Joe's other materials perks are compounding together to boost up its toughness and resistance and so on, so that it goes from 'resistant' to heat and power weapons to 'laughs at' them?
 
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NotInventedHere said:
Daaaaaamn. Lathe metal is ridiculously powerful. ... Actually, it's way more powerful here than it is either in the perk description:

or in its original setting:


I guess all Joe's other materials perks are compounding together to boost up its toughness and resistance and so on, so that it goes from 'resistant' to heat and power weapons to 'laughs at' them?
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Remember, what Joe uses isn't regular Lathe metal, it's divine mastercrafted enchanted fae (insert adjective) lathe metal. Anything he makes will be vastly stronger than any canon depictions, and there's a recent WoG that now that he has Lathe metal, he's invincible to anything non-annihilator, with even Sundander not being able to do anything to him.

All that thought with Faultline really drove home to me that the Forge can just up and make all discussion irrelevant... in the 2 to 3 chapters to the meeting, he could get M/E, getting blank, he could get EE, eliminating any possible advantage any annihilators pose, he could get tons and tons of other perks that complete flip the table.. though knowing our luck M/E will be the last perk of the Forge gained just because of how long we've been wanting it lmao
 
Jiggy000 said:
Obviously information on the abilities he has gained since the fight. An example that comes to the top of my head is the ability to make an entire anti-Endbringer mech in seconds. This may be valuable information for Ziz to possess and it is something that Jo could give away by making a mistake when creating a single drone. I agree that Ziz already wants to puppet Jo, but giving her more information seems dangerous considering the scale of her precognition.

To be honest I hadn't even considered her ability to replicate tech, but that just reiterates how dangerous this fight with Ziz is already going to be. And yes Jo could defeat the entire E88 using old tech, but doing so will risk lives and, considering the number of abilities Jo can't turn off, might still expose vital information to Ziz.
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The Ziz is totally unable to see into the Workshop, she'd have no ability to tell how long it took or what he did to make it. Furthermore, the Ziz copies the abilities of Tinkers around her, and it's debatable if Joe even counts as one for the purposes of hijacking, ignoring the token that, again, negates mind-reading. If the Simurgh is able to see that far without using her Scream, and she isn't, then she already knows the majority of his construction speed thanks to the 'three day tech' meme.

And for the E88, here's the thing: they're a gang whose initiation rites demands the murder of a minority. None of their capes can stop the MC for more than a half minute if he goes all out, and he has total information control. There's also three of him, and a bevy of options to use remote controlled drones to minimise other collateral. Again, this is all abilities he's already shown.
 
I think the argument that Joe can't do anything relatively big on a single city-wide scale without alerting the Simurgh is pretty baseless, considering that outside of workshop sections this story is entirely about Joe fucking up the local Brockton Bay cape scene majorly.

I'm gonna actually take a stance and say that it would probably be sensible not to provoke a gang fight in the middle of a meeting between every BB criminal group leader and their entourage (plus some extras). Even if one of the groups represented is Nazis. Just seems like that would spark chaos in a time where BB really doesn't need it.

Of course, I also don't think Joe should or will give Nazism a pass. Ideal scenario is that he builds up to a point he can crush them effortlessly and then does so; he lived with them around his whole life and shitty as it is I think he can live with them around a few more days until he can ensure that his efforts to deal with them don't do unwarranted damage (like the mess fighting the ABB became).

Of course, it's also sensible to me that Joe isn't specifically preparing to take out the Nazis when he's the only one the stands a real individual chance against the mega monsters slaughtering the world. I don't think one bout of nazi removal would be the final crossed line that brings the Simurgh down on Joe, however much it does bump up his shard interest level, but I do think his time would be better spent building up his tech to face such global super threats instead. The E88 are ultimately of very little importance, and I say that not to minimize how bad they are but to maximize how bad the stuff Joe actually fears is.

Of course, this isn't the story of Joe sitting in a workshop building stuff until he becomes a god and wins. Something will happen at some point to force Joe into action again, and if it's Nazi related I think it's pretty safe to say the Nazis are going down.
 
Execute/Dumbo said:
She can't mindread Joe, though. Badge stops it. She'll never realise his intent.
Edit: On top of that, like I said, Joe doesn't even need to use alchemy's full potential. He could win entirely via what he's already displayed.
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WoG from LR explicitly says that the player pin only blocks people from reading surface-thoughts. The Simurgh almost assuredly can read more than surface-thoughts.

I do agree with your main point, though, that Joe has the ability to dismantle the E88 as an organization without exceeding the power-level he's already displayed - He literally took out Lung at his highest-ever rampup. Lung was able to rival the E88 with Just himself, Oni Lee, and the occasional extra cape (Bakuda, presumably others in the past). Even if the E88 as a whole was able to significantly challenge Joe, he could Easily divide and conquer using the duplicate potion. The idea that Joe can't fight the nazis or else the Simurgh will Know Everything is ridiculous. Literally the whole point of Joe's "wait until i roll a new power to do things" relies on the fact that the forge rolls unpredictably make Joe stronger - the simurgh knowing that Joe could theoretically build an anti-endbringer weapon in an instant Isn't crucial, because by the time he has to Fight the Simurgh, he'll be able to build one that's a million bajillion trillion times stronger, in a sixteenth of the time.

I don't think he's going to do that at Somer's Rock, because it would seriously hurt his very-important credibility as a man who sticks to his word if he was to attack someone during a truce. But I'd like to see him give them a stern talking-to during the Somer's Rock meeting. something like 'you have 12 hours to leave your life of fascism behind' and have the next several chapters focus on Joe following up on that promise of implied violence. I don't expect, as of right now, that he'll do that - but as @TitanFrost just said in the middle of writing this - the E88 are probably going to do some shit soon, and then Apeiron is going to beat the shit out of them. and it will be glorious.
 
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