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Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

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012345 said:
I didnt read all discussion that happened after that chapter but did Lord explain WTF was that? Like from where did ABB/March/Bakuda pulled out an attack that Joe/AI's couldnt detect source of or even attact itself while it was capable of shreeding his tech that works by 1/4 Jump Fiat, 1/4 Materials and 1/4 MAGIC? And if they had such thing why didnt they use more of it?
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LordR has a nice habit of answering questions in the comments over on AO3. This came up.

From: Show Comment | Archive of Our Own

The strike on the drones and motoroid was actually a single hit version of what March and Oni Lee pulled on Joe. Bakuda's bombs are strong, but not on the level of sting. Bakuda didn't have anything that could have instantly put down the drones and motroid with their upgraded defenses. Duplicating Sting at any level is a nightmare and would have been the equivalent of another mega project for Bakuda.
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Feels a bit handwavey but I'll take it.
 
impasse said:
It does run into the problem of why the laser auto-turret designed specifically to stop that happening didn't stop that happening though.
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...Because Oni Lee has vision-based range, and the Motoroid could only track him visually.
Joe couldn't make scanners that scan DNA and shit until he gets Skills: Medicine, or something similar to that.
Also the Motoroid didn't spot March, so it's clear there was a hideout where he was given the sting-blocks.
 
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The Shallow said:
...Because Oni Lee has vision-based range, and the Motoroid could only track him visually.
Joe couldn't make scanners that scan DNA and shit until he gets Skills: Medicine, or something similar to that.
Also the turret didn't spot March, so it's clear there was a hideout where he was given the sting-blocks.
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He wouldn't need to scan dna, he's already capable of scanning for parahumans. The turret being vision based would entirely defeat the purpose of having an anti-teleportation defence unless Joe was somehow under the impression that no-one would ever think to teleport behind him.
 
Mizuki_Stone said:
Edit: Oh the irony... You were replying to a suggestion that the motoroid was downed by a Sting based effect weren't you? Well now I feel foolish. I don't think this was that though. Just something nasty that Bakuda cookied up. She has Leet's tech to draw on after all, and they've seen spatial warping work on him in the past so... (shrugs) probably just something like that?
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Agreed, I assumed it was some sort of EMP-bomb from bakuda, or something related to the big project Leet was working on in his interlude.
 
impasse said:
He wouldn't need to scan dna, he's already capable of scanning for parahumans. The turret being vision based would entirely defeat the purpose of having an anti-teleportation defence unless Joe was somehow under the impression that no-one would ever think to teleport behind him.
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He can't kill bakuda so that option is off the table just in case. Also there was jamming tech involved.
 
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To be fair something that had come in the posts in other ways it also something to be considered.

Computational data limit and 'software limitations'. How many things Joe was doing and how many things were taking precedent in this bleeding heart/perfectionist?

Remember he can't use the lab computacional power unless he allow his lab door open. Which unless I am remember this wrongly he didn't.

So he had a lot of computational data. but not his best. And his Ai children were in their reduce form. Which is still a bullshit lot of power^^. So he had 3 Joes, with gear, the undersiders, 3 mechas, all bots and maybe just maybe some hack computer helping which bring to.

He was doing all he was doing while taking more 'soft touch' for a significant part of the track of the ABB (at last before the fight) to not warn the dragon/give intel for the dragon.

He was priorize the deadman trigger above all else, he was more worry about March than any of the others. he was also worried and taking actions in the city taking computational data to hit the ABB while reducing the number of deaths. he also sending data to all relevant force of the city. he probably was also need to keep his firewalls for said forces.

I just commenting that yeah one critical mistake was possible even without shenanigans. Like Oni lee being inside a area that could not be scanned or using other bullshits to booster his powers outside said shard 'halping'.

They could had even a lite version of armsmaster combat software with a mask made by leet for oni and I could buy stuff like one off teleport by camera vision or some other shenanigans. Because power cheat. A lot.

If one [edit:side] has a shard working and the other is 'mundane' force. I can buy that the shard 'blink' and 'thought' 'no, the rules for this case work like this' and allow some shenanigan that favor the caper for some reason.
edit: oh, and I think by that point he only had two Joes and all their gear and etc. So less bullshit computational power. still a lot. still this is my point. that and.
Those bots software and development probably didn't focus in their survival compare to said mecha. And said mecha would invest more in Joe survival. So by hitting them first they could have the window that they had when the AIs were absorving the damage of losing that much 'brain' in a single hit. Well that is my opinion^^ it can be complete wrong :D
edit: grammar. I mean side and not said.
 
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impasse said:
He wouldn't need to scan dna, he's already capable of scanning for parahumans. The turret being vision based would entirely defeat the purpose of having an anti-teleportation defence unless Joe was somehow under the impression that no-one would ever think to teleport behind him.
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Do not make the mistake of confusing lab scanning with combat scanning. He has tech that can, yes, scan a para human to study their powers but what he does not have is tech that locate parahumans. Not yet. At least. And the hard point defense system has an entire suite of sensors, but Lee had a way to mask himself from the non visual sensors. Likely using some form of stealth tech. Possibly Leets. Thus reducing the hard point to visual only. Else he would have been shooting him through the obstacles as he clearly showed he could shoot through buildings when he was taking out the stationary jammers.
 
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impasse said:
He wouldn't need to scan dna, he's already capable of scanning for parahumans. The turret being vision based would entirely defeat the purpose of having an anti-teleportation defence unless Joe was somehow under the impression that no-one would ever think to teleport behind him.
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It's not that reliable for that type of scanning, the scanners only work when there is a effect in play, so only when Oni Lee uses his power, so it will only happen after he teleports.
 
Vysirez said:
This doesn't exactly relate to the latest chapter, but I was reminded by a comment. I'm generally happy to roll with whatever premise an author wants to run with as long as the story remains internally consistent. If the author wants all redheads to have fire powers, that is fine by me, but then all redheads need to have fire powers, not just when it's useful. Which leads me to a complaint about the big fight. Maybe I'm just reading things wrong, but it appears that there is now an ongoing in-story excuse for random character power boosts when they are dealing with Joe due to his out of context power.

I have a big problem with this because it kills any sense of internal consistency in relation to character power levels. Not only is any preexisting Worm knowledge about powers useless, any in story knowledge is useless as well. Characters can now get random power ups at any time, including in the middle of a fight. I guess it can be useful to the author, so he can let anybody keep up with Joe if he wants to, but its a big problem for me. I have learned from past experience that internal consistency is important to my enjoyment of a story. Its not going to kill the story for me, but it's going to poison my overall enjoyment. Since I can no longer have any kind of prediction about how a fight or power related interaction is going to turn out, I don't care as much. It's hard for me to be invested in a story if I have idea of what is going to happen.
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WoG concerning this on Ao3

I thing one of the concerns regarding Joe's 'walking Sechen range' status was that it would be used as an excuse to ensure every villain was scaled up to Joe's level, making all of his work meaningless. Really, what it did was take a group of capes who were already synergizing very well and take them up a level. There is a limit to how much a Sechen range can push a power. It's not going to turn Mush into a kaiju, at most it will let him assemble more quickly with better fine control. If villains want to fight Joe they are going to have to fight smart, not rely on powerups. The ABB fought smart and they still lost. Apeiron is at the point where any serious move against him is going to need to be conducted on the level of a well coordinated major offensive. Or involve an Endbringer.
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So while yes they got a boost, and for Lung it's translated to power, it was mainly their synergy and how strong their powers were by themselves that had Joe struggling. This was a team, specifically preparing for Joe, who had parahumans with synergies and versatility through the roof, and they still lost. There are very few parahuman teams that can really give Joe trouble at this point, because he's only going to come back stronger.
 
pendevin said:
I think the best way for Joe to do shoddy work is to build a robot to do it for him. Bonus points if it looks like pre-Forge Joe and can take his place for social events. Let him control it with his implants but give it a mediocrity filter.
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Will not work. If Joe is controlling it directly, it counts as him doing it himself as far as the Forge is concerned.
 
Victoria's self-awareness is what sells the chapter imo. For a while there Apeiron was having almost memetic levels of bad luck in how all of his actions with the heroes backfired.

Most of that has been shown to be more nuanced (between Weld, Gully and now Victoria) but it's nice to see someone else reach the right conclusions. Feels like a critical mass has been reached on that. Hopefully anyway.


I'm going to put forward what is surely a unique opinion: I feel bad for Bakuda. It hit me last chapter and only got worse this chapter as we saw people react to her back-and-forth with Apeiron and we saw how effective his social perks were.

Bakuda is incredibly scary and dangerous but in every interaction with Apeiron he upstages her and makes her look inept and, thanks to Tattletale, deliberately plays on the insecurities that made her trigger. It's like the worst case scenario for her: she's upstaged by a genius tinker she can't hope to keep up with and needs to rely on others to even have a chance. Not just technologically but it's painfully obvious to everyone that he's dancing circles around her socially.

It's weird cause I have no sympathy for Leet and I don't mind if Apeiron turns Bakuda to red mist but her position is pathetic enough that I can't help but cringe for her reading her try to match wits with Joe.

If she knew his general struggles with people before those perks she'd second trigger.
 
So from what I've seen of some 'The Big O' clips it seems like the titular robots straddles the line between 'real-robot/super-robot' subgenres, but I haven't seen anything that warrants them being called God-Machines capable of effecting the entire universe as Joe put it. Can anyone fill me in on what they can really do if they let loose?
 
Akira D. said:
WoG is that it has to be an actual door, linked to and actual structure, or it won't work.

Which means he'd need a shed. Or something of the sort. Maybe something more inconspicuous... like a blue telephone box.
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Or he could use Simple Scientific Solutions to solve the problem of always fumbling for his key and make a Garage Door opener that forms a portal out of the Garage so he can enter. Goodness knows I haven't used my front door in about three years now.
 
Ihaxlikenoob said:
So from what I've seen of some 'The Big O' clips it seems like the titular robots straddles the line between 'real-robot/super-robot' subgenres, but I haven't seen anything that warrants them being called God-Machines capable of effecting the entire universe as Joe put it. Can anyone fill me in on what they can really do if they let loose?
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Big O is one of those 'why explain things when we can use symbolism and surrealism' series, but the grand finale of the second (and last) season... kind of implies that a specific Big, Big Venus, has the power to rewrite reality and erase memories? Or maybe the entire city was a holodeck and Big Venus just has the holodeck controls? Or maybe it's all an elaborate metaphor. Or maybe none of it really happened. It's that kind of show.
 
I feel that if Chen's comment, comparing Apeiron to Son Wukong, was transmitted, people are going to start thinking he's a power-copying Case 53.
Or just a power-copier.
One that doesn't get an exact copy, but something similar.
He's had interactions with Oni Lee (copies of himself), Tattletale (Thinker power), Khepri (controls swarms of drones)...
Who knows what Tinkers he could have met before Leet, Bakuda, and Dragon. Each of whom resulted in an updated costume and tech.
Tetra could be mistaken for his own nervous system or muscle fibers, controlled in a horrific reversal of Hijack's power.
There could even be arguing over whether it was Bitch or Lung's power that turned him into a dinosaur-wolf.
 
rollobeast said:
I feel that if Chen's comment, comparing Apeiron to Son Wukong, was transmitted, people are going to start thinking he's a power-copying Case 53.
Or just a power-copier.
One that doesn't get an exact copy, but something similar.
He's had interactions with Oni Lee (copies of himself), Tattletale (Thinker power), Khepri (controls swarms of drones)...
Who knows what Tinkers he could have met before Leet, Bakuda, and Dragon. Each of whom resulted in an updated costume and tech.
Tetra could be mistaken for his own nervous system or muscle fibers, controlled in a horrific reversal of Hijack's power.
There could even be arguing over whether it was Bitch or Lung's power that turned him into a dinosaur-wolf.
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"Hey, what if he's a power-copying Case 53?"
"Shut up, that comparison to Son Wukong was clearly a metaphor."
 
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