Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

Unless March is dead or depowered, does it really matter how the ABB is doing? They've been pretty much a nonentity besides serving as hostage-troops, the only ones that really matter on this stage are March and maybe Bakuda.

Doesn't matter how bad things are as long as budget Contessa is still around to direct things. Arguably, she doesn't even need the gang, just resources and a few points of connection with a couple of key people in Brockton Bay.
 
Isnt a case 70 when you time share your body?

So im curious will joe be able to duplicate that candle(wards of death for 10 minutes) ability.

Could we get a baseline on joes physical stats after his recovery. At minimumhis strength. Right now im assumeing its green goblin level strength of 9 tons.and that is before the limits were taken off in last chapter.
 
Unless March is dead or depowered, does it really matter how the ABB is doing? They've been pretty much a nonentity besides serving as hostage-troops, the only ones that really matter on this stage are March and maybe Bakuda.

Doesn't matter how bad things are as long as budget Contessa is still around to direct things. Arguably, she doesn't even need the gang, just resources and a few points of connection with a couple of key people in Brockton Bay.
From the latest WoG, it's been noted that March has effectively been depowered. Her power relies on timing, but she has poor control over her own body. It's been noted that in her current state, even if she had an enslaved army she had direct control over to do her bidding, she wouldn't be able to do what she had achieved in the past chapters.

Effectively, March has peaked and is going to be a non-issue for the foreseeable future. The bigger concerns would be whether or not her short venture in Shardspace had any lasting consequences. Depending on the time she broke the call gem, Triumph could've been in the immediate area in a delicate state and we know that shards of dead Entities don't react very well to that kind of thing.

In regards to whether or not she is a budget Contessa, she is not. What she has is timing, not omniscient precognition. It's why she stumbled to some degree whenever Joe showed her something new, and why Joe was even able to hit her in the first place because Contessa would've been nowhere near that fight if she had been the one he was fighting. And you underestimate how much of a power multiplier the ABB had been for her plans, not just the capes. True, Bakuda gave her the conscripts as well as the weapons to deal a lot of damage, but the real kicker of her plan had been the fact that she had the manpower to cause chaos to an entire city, thereby forcing Joe to reveal more of his cards that he would've liked. Same goes for the collateral damage caused.

Honestly, if she had joined the E88 instead, she would've not been able to do as much as she did. The Empire is basically the group of powerhouses to the ABB's utility capes. The cloning, the Tinker bombs and weaponry, and the big threat to the entire city that was Lung gave her the tools she needed to distract and hoodwink Joe, and the E88 thugs wouldn't have had the ticking bomb threat in their heads considering Kaiser would've never agreed to that kind of thing.

All in all, people kind of overestimate March by quite a bit. She's definitely a bigger threat than anyone else in the Bay true, by her sheer Thinker potential, but the biggest threat to her was never her power because there are actual ways to work around it. Just limit her information and prevent her from coordinating things. Even her Sting could be avoided as long as one didn't approach her and she didn't have the convenient payload delivery ala-Oni Lee.

The real threat to her was the information she held over the Shardspace, and the interactions capes had with said Shardspace.
 
This all leads me to conclude that THIS was Aperion's last chance to defeat or at least cripple his enemies to the point where he could deal with them later.
All the ABB are out for the picture. Oni Lee might eventually recover but his power makes him almost brain dead, and pushing it as hard as he did was properly a really bad thing. And he has some brain damage if I am not mistaken from getting bitch slapped. So he is a non threat.

March is no longer in play if I am not mistaken. So no need to worry about her anymore.

And bomb lady (I don't know how to spell her name). Has very advanced tinker tech induced cancer. And Joe can track her bombs now. And she doesn't have access to the resources she had before. So she is going to die soon.
the lightest she will get off with is cutting a deal to remove the bombs and get sent to the birdcage. Otherwise it's kill order the moment the bombs are out of the kidnapped people.

So no, Joe didn't miss his chance to take out the ABB. They are no longer a threat.
 
In regards to whether or not she is a budget Contessa, she is not. What she has is timing, not omniscient precognition. It's why she stumbled to some degree whenever Joe showed her something new, and why Joe was even able to hit her in the first place because Contessa would've been nowhere near that fight if she had been the one he was fighting. And you underestimate how much of a power multiplier the ABB had been for her plans, not just the capes. True, Bakuda gave her the conscripts as well as the weapons to deal a lot of damage, but the real kicker of her plan had been the fact that she had the manpower to cause chaos to an entire city, thereby forcing Joe to reveal more of his cards that he would've liked. Same goes for the collateral damage caused.

Honestly, if she had joined the E88 instead, she would've not been able to do as much as she did. The Empire is basically the group of powerhouses to the ABB's utility capes. The cloning, the Tinker bombs and weaponry, and the big threat to the entire city that was Lung gave her the tools she needed to distract and hoodwink Joe, and the E88 thugs wouldn't have had the ticking bomb threat in their heads considering Kaiser would've never agreed to that kind of thing.

All in all, people kind of overestimate March by quite a bit. She's definitely a bigger threat than anyone else in the Bay true, by her sheer Thinker potential, but the biggest threat to her was never her power because there are actual ways to work around it. Just limit her information and prevent her from coordinating things. Even her Sting could be avoided as long as one didn't approach her and she didn't have the convenient payload delivery ala-Oni Lee.

The real threat to her was the information she held over the Shardspace, and the interactions capes had with said Shardspace.
She doesn't need omniscience to be budget Contessa, she just needs to be good enough in the small scale to seem like it. Given the way we see her working in the Leet interlude, arriving right as Leet is thinking of pulling out and sets up a situation to ensure he's even further commited, she certainly fits. Also there's how no other thinker seems to be able to match her, and how easily she took over the ABB. She really only stumbles with Apeiron because he's effectively unplottable by thinker powers due to the Forge. Even then, she gets a good enough feel to nearly kill him.

And, yes, the ABB have been useful as hostage-troops, but aren't really a threat by themselves? Even Apeiron acknowledges this, they're just throwaway distractions and information diggers. I fully expect Marche could pull off the same general set up (chaos all over the city to learn about Apeiron) even without them, it would just take longer. I don't see how being with the E88 would change anything besides having more capes to work with and using conventional explosives instead of the set up with Bakuda. Sure the troops wouldn't be suicidally loyal, but there's also enough of a command structure she doesn't need that. Or she could work with Coil and use his mercenaries, IDK.

The biggest threat is definitely her power, her shardspace information has almost nothing to do with why she was such a problem in Brockton Bay, that was down to her flexing her Thinker power to turn a bunch of (frankly) nobodies and failures into a massive threat. Shardspace info just makes her a problem longterm.
 
One of the things that was spoiled for the next chapter is Marches status (don't know how to spoiler on mobile) which nullifys some of your argument and lungs status might cause the e88 to try to move in causing a distraction.

As far as Joe's concerned, it doesn't matter whether March is in no condition to fight him. He doesn't know this, and therefore should be treating March as an active threat (and he should also treat attacking Lung instead of confirming the kill as "what stupid thing did I just do".)

Also, let's face it, the only reason March was written this way was that she could be brought back as a future threat, so this is absolutely a case of Apeiron not being able to stop a future threat. Just because March the person is damaged doesn't change her role in the story as an obstacle that keeps coming back.
 
All the ABB are out for the picture. Oni Lee might eventually recover but his power makes him almost brain dead, and pushing it as hard as he did was properly a really bad thing. And he has some brain damage if I am not mistaken from getting bitch slapped. So he is a non threat.

March is no longer in play if I am not mistaken. So no need to worry about her anymore.

And bomb lady (I don't know how to spell her name). Has very advanced tinker tech induced cancer. And Joe can track her bombs now. And she doesn't have access to the resources she had before. So she is going to die soon.
the lightest she will get off with is cutting a deal to remove the bombs and get sent to the birdcage. Otherwise it's kill order the moment the bombs are out of the kidnapped people.

So no, Joe didn't miss his chance to take out the ABB. They are no longer a threat.
You forgot Uber and Leet. Bakuda also still has the kill switch to all of those hostages, if they're no longer useful to her (or worse, liabilities) there's nothing stopping her from just killing them all. Joe really shouldn't have released that tracker before he'd taken away her ability to do that. Though her deadman's switch might just end up killing them anyway given the cancer.
 
You forgot Uber and Leet. Bakuda also still has the kill switch to all of those hostages, if they're no longer useful to her (or worse, liabilities) there's nothing stopping her from just killing them all. Joe really shouldn't have released that tracker before he'd taken away her ability to do that. Though her deadman's switch might just end up killing them anyway given the cancer.
The problem is you can't blame Apeiron for releasing it. Apeiron sent word out before the first person was conscripted and has records of that conversation. He even has records indicating Director Piggot stopped him from collaborating on shutting down the deadman's switch. The PRT could try and play up his relation with those deaths, but that ignores the literal child soldiers and slave army the ABB used against the city regardless of the PRT's willingness to negotiate with them. There was never a win condition, this event showed pushing back the response only increased the casualties from the ABB as Bakuda only wanted time to make more slaves.
 
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She doesn't need omniscience to be budget Contessa, she just needs to be good enough in the small scale to seem like it. Given the way we see her working in the Leet interlude, arriving right as Leet is thinking of pulling out and sets up a situation to ensure he's even further commited, she certainly fits. Also there's how no other thinker seems to be able to match her, and how easily she took over the ABB. She really only stumbles with Apeiron because he's effectively unplottable by thinker powers due to the Forge. Even then, she gets a good enough feel to nearly kill him.
Except it's the large scale and direct combat that her Thinker power actually applies. Do note that while she had her timing power to social fu her way into the ABB and Leet/Uber's graces, this was mostly due to her knowledge of how shards work, the latter especially.
And, yes, the ABB have been useful as hostage-troops, but aren't really a threat by themselves? Even Apeiron acknowledges this, they're just throwaway distractions and information diggers. I fully expect Marche could pull off the same general set up (chaos all over the city to learn about Apeiron) even without them, it would just take longer. I don't see how being with the E88 would change anything besides having more capes to work with and using conventional explosives instead of the set up with Bakuda. Sure the troops wouldn't be suicidally loyal, but there's also enough of a command structure she doesn't need that. Or she could work with Coil and use his mercenaries, IDK.
As for why the ABB was so important, it's because the fact that she doesn't need to throw around capes to make a difference matters. The ABB troops may not be a threat to Joe, but they are a threat to everything else hence why Joe needed to address them in the first place. Conventional weaponry can be left behind to the Protectorate. Exotic Tinker weaponry on suicidal troops, not so much.
The biggest threat is definitely her power, her shardspace information has almost nothing to do with why she was such a problem in Brockton Bay, that was down to her flexing her Thinker power to turn a bunch of (frankly) nobodies and failures into a massive threat. Shardspace info just makes her a problem longterm.
And lastly, it's precisely her shardspace information that made her such a problem in Brockton Bay. Without her unique perspective on how shards and Sechen ranges work, she would've not been able to lead every cape in the group towards working as efficiently as they had. Remember, without supercharging Leet and Bakuda, they wouldn't have been able to make everything in time to make a difference.
 
Joes full name is Jozef Duris and joe are both masculine pronouns

Lol, imagine thinking this was true. 😅

That's a bit ignorant of you. Let me help you out, mate.

Joe or Jo can be shortened versions of both Joseph (in this case Jozef) or Josephine.

Josephine, in case you didn't know, is a woman's name normally.

Just because a name is commonly seen as a masculine one dosen't exclude it from also being a just as popular in women.

Kind of like, Sam and Robin can apply just as well to both genders.

That's why I mentioned that he's more so referred to as Joe in the story, hence allowing me to live on in blissful ignorance.

It was clearly a joke. Loosen up a bit will you. 😛
 
You forgot Uber and Leet. Bakuda also still has the kill switch to all of those hostages, if they're no longer useful to her (or worse, liabilities) there's nothing stopping her from just killing them all. Joe really shouldn't have released that tracker before he'd taken away her ability to do that. Though her deadman's switch might just end up killing them anyway given the cancer.
March has been interacting with them in certain ways, bringing them closer to their shards at opportune times. Leet was considering quitting when she randomly showed up and made it all emotional again. She has lost touch with the human perspective now, so while she can still time their tech, she can't time when they'll consider leaving, and after this clusterfuck they'll be smart and leave.
 
And bomb lady (I don't know how to spell her name). Has very advanced tinker tech induced cancer. And Joe can track her bombs now. And she doesn't have access to the resources she had before. So she is going to die soon.
the lightest she will get off with is cutting a deal to remove the bombs and get sent to the birdcage. Otherwise it's kill order the moment the bombs are out of the kidnapped people.
Bakuda also has to worry about Regent
 
Regent...? Did I miss something? Is Alec hunting down Bakuda in the background?

I'd imagine he's still a bit upset about her trying to burn him alive.
He also only needs a few seconds more of playing with her nervous system to hit the total control mark.
Once he has that, it's like flipping a switch for him, he can take control of her the moment she is in range if he wants.
 
I'd imagine he's still a bit upset about her trying to burn him alive.
He also only needs a few seconds more of playing with her nervous system to hit the total control mark.
Once he has that, it's like flipping a switch for him, he can take control of her the moment she is in range if he wants.

I'm actually surprised ABB is still existent. They've made so many enemies not just Regent. In a rational world everyone would be attacking ABB especially now that Lung is dead.
 
According to LordRoustabout, they're pretty much done as an organization. March is blue-screening from Revelation, Bakuda has supercancer, Oni Lee burned through the rest of his brain-time, Lung is dead, and Bakuda's signals are no longer untraceable.
 
I'm actually surprised ABB is still existent. They've made so many enemies not just Regent. In a rational world everyone would be attacking ABB especially now that Lung is dead.
I'm sure they're planning to. They just don't move at Joe speed when it comes to attacking.

Of course, we don't really yet know if the ABB still counts as "existing."
According to LordRoustabout
Much of this ought to spoilered, I believe.
 
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Here's two four WoG on the impact of Lung being gone and on how it'll impact the gangs:

A big thing with Lung is, while he was obliterated, it happened at such a distance while he as at such a power level that a lot of people aren't going to believe he's gone. That will cause issues for a lot of groups going forward, but will be a mixed blessing for Joe.
Defeating Lung might not be significant to Joe personally, but it is a massive achievement to everyone else and pretty much the kind of thing reputations are built on. That is one thing that's easy to forget. The reason Brian was so concerned about the Undersider's rep was that, as a villain, reputation does half the work for you. Even with Bakuda's technology, Oni Lee cloning bombs, and March's coordination the real fear of the ABB was centered on Lung. He was both the figurehead and cornerstone of the gang. People who were willing to work with him, or work around him, won't extend that to the rest of the ABB capes. They have just lost their primary source of relevance and soft power. Yeah, they can still do damage, but there's a difference between being dangerous and being intimidating. Lung was careful about how he used his power and built a precise reputation as a fixture of the cape scene. Bakuda has seriously fallen short of that, and March can't step into his shoes, and Oni Lee is a robot. This is a major loss for the ABB to the point that the gang might not exist in a meaningful sense afterwards.
Somer's Rock will be focused on different issues than in cannon. In the original story it was an agreement to team up to bring down Lung while leaving Bakuda to the protectorate. Now you have a power vacuum, an unknown new player, and so much chaos in the city that half of the meeting will probably be spent just trying to get everyone up to speed on WTF just happened.
Everyone cares is Lung dies. It's a major point of the story going forward. People might have gotten overly used to Lung being the punching bag of fanfiction, but beating a ramped up Lung is the kind of accomplishment that cape career's are built on. It's like what Joe said about the Siberian in story as compared to March. March has no clout because she's never done anything that impressive. The Siberian killed Hero and wounded Alexandria. Joe just became one of the top capes on the planet, something nobody can argue with or qualify any more.

Lord is on a roll replying to the AO3 questions atm.
 
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Lol, imagine thinking this was true. 😅

That's a bit ignorant of you. Let me help you out, mate.

Joe or Jo can be shortened versions of both Joseph (in this case Jozef) or Josephine.

Josephine, in case you didn't know, is a woman's name normally.

Just because a name is commonly seen as a masculine one dosen't exclude it from also being a just as popular in women.

Kind of like, Sam and Robin can apply just as well to both genders.

That's why I mentioned that he's more so referred to as Joe in the story, hence allowing me to live on in blissful ignorance.

It was clearly a joke. Loosen up a bit will you. 😛
where did Josephine come from while it is correct i will concede that

Jozef Duris is canonically joes full name

it's just shortened to joe

and you don't need blissful ignorance you need KNOWLEDGE

i take everything seriously on this story super seriously and i cant loosen
 
Rule 3: Be Civil - Active dismissal and hostility towards another user bordering on transphobia are not acceptable on SV.
where did Josephine come from while it is correct i will concede that

Jozef Duris is canonically joes full name

it's just shortened to joe

and you don't need blissful ignorance you need KNOWLEDGE

i take everything seriously on this story super seriously and i cant loosen
Puffin has a trans fantasy, is determined to ignore all evidence to the contrary, and is doing the '90% give the other 10% a bad name' thing that activists are prone to.
 
Puffin has a trans fantasy, is determined to ignore all evidence to the contrary, and is doing the '90% give the other 10% a bad name' thing that activists are prone to.

Are you seriously trying to say that being determined to see Jo as a possible female name gives activists a bad name? What about that statement makes you think that person is an activist? And, I mean, if you want to actually not make a strawman, you'd have to also consider the idea that the current name isn't necessarily the given name. Plus Joe has problems at home, we might not know every factor that went into that. I think you're being very uncharitable towards Puffin. Yes, it's unlikely in the extreme, but you're putting down someone for writing a wild theory on a message board for a fictional story. That kind of speculating is generally considered as being all in good fun.
 
God, please stop arguing. We don't need the mods in here.

And we really don't need to give LordR any more stress.
 
God, please stop arguing. We don't need the mods in here.

And we really don't need to give LordR any more stress.

This ain't spacebattles, the mods here are actually good at doing their jobs. They're not going to lock down the thread because some commenters were mean, they'll just infract and move on. Lord has nothing to worry about on that front. :)

On that note, Lord has confirmed over on AO3 that the next update will be on time, so we've got that to look forward to on Wednesday.
 
Puffin has a trans fantasy, is determined to ignore all evidence to the contrary, and is doing the '90% give the other 10% a bad name' thing that activists are prone to.
Or Maybe you have a cis fantasy, are determined to ignore all evidence to the contrary, and are doing the "I hate being reminded that trans people exist" thing that gamer dudes on the internet are prone to. /s

in all seriousness, how does someone talking about their headcanon give activism a bad name? Especially when it was clearly presented as a joke. Also, what evidence is there that Joe is cis? This story takes place around the start of Worm, which takes place in 2011, so there's a pretty decent chance that Joe has Never encountered the idea that you can be trans or non-binary in the first place.
 
Rule 3: Be Civil - Active dismissal and hostility towards another user bordering on transphobia are not acceptable on SV.
Puffin has a trans fantasy, is determined to ignore all evidence to the contrary, and is doing the '90% give the other 10% a bad name' thing that activists are prone to.
so @McPuffin Muffin is living in his/her own world then is what i am getting from your post my opinion on him/her is lowered

that explains the 40-year-old picture of Joe when he isn't that old or fat and his/her picture of Aisha being white and older than she really is when MULTIPLE concrete sources(WOG, Wiki, In story descriptions of both BCF and OG worm) say that she is currently 13 and black

that's what most activists do some of them are Karens but on the internet, while some have good points some are just idiots who don't do something called RESEARCH

i wouldn't be surprised if this post attracts a mod or he/she starts make a post full of insults
 
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