Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

[retric]

I think the last chapter was great overall. Many people are going to complain with just about any action you take and it's not worth getting into the weeds with readers. That said fight choreography is what broke suspension of disbelief.

Life fibers apparently cause anime style physics which makes things inconsistent and that's messing with people. I like how much this messes with worm's physics, but an audience who thinks in F=MA are going to have issues.

 

[werdZerg13]

I very much enjoyed the last chapter and I do love your larger updates but I feel that this last chapter may have gone just a bit over the quality edge. You previously stated that you didn't want to do a month long series of chapters for the fight and after the community reaction to the storage yard I completely understand your reasoning. Add onto that the very consistent update policy that you have adhered to leading to you cutting down your polish time for the last chapter I think you may have simply bitten of more than you could chew for one siting. I would have bin fine with splitting the last chapter in half or even taking a third week for finishing touches. This is your project, your joy, your vision you should not feel like you owe us anything at all your the boss and I am just happy to find a good writer with an interesting story to spend my down time in a world more interesting then our current... I can't think of any polite words for 2020.

 

[Magus Explorator]

I am one of the team that really liked the last chapter (and all of the fic really )
this fic was one of the only ones that basically force me in getting into the discord chat to help contain all the theory crafting and the like

you really need to troll us Hard for me to even think of leave the fic

 

[Vampirec]

I'm going to at least close out the interlude, but after that I'm not sure.

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While I would be very,very disappointed if you drop this fic , I can understand where you are coming from, only thing I want to say is that you shouldn't let your motivation drop because of some negative rewiews this chapter brought,it is a natural part of a being writer after all ,you can't please everybody , while it can be seen off-putting to be told not to be effected by negative rewiews as you spend nearly all of your free ( and probably some not-so-free ) time working on this fic,you shouldn't forget that all of the toxic rewiews makes up a significantly small portion of your reader base (like really small), the reason this chapter brought such a reaction in the first place is because of how you can make people drift in the flow of your story and some people doesn't like that if it doesn't take them to a place they want. you are a very successful fanfic writer by any metric of measurement.

EDİT: Also did I mention that I wold be VERY VERY VERY disappointed if you drop this story ?

 

[Apulist]

I love your story. I look forward to it, literally, starting every Monday until it's release. I appreciate all the work you put into your writing. If you need to take a break then do so. I, and others, will piss and moan, but we will get over it. Thanks for all you do.

 

[wakshazi]

Of course, now that Joe can make key crests he can protect people from this interaction, but that still requires working with souls as raw materials.

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Does it? I am a bit unsure exactly how the "50% fail rate if you don't have the proper material" would work without the soul. It is jump fiat, but there is a level where it makes no sense to for it to function.

As an added bonus, with enough practice, you have a 50% chance to not require high-grade or legendary materials (Rubied, Plates, etc) to make an item, provided you can supplement the build with excess materials.
And Joe already skipped out on using life fibers and cybertonium...

Spoiler: Spoiler

It wasn't 'March will survive no matter what', it was 'the intention of this scene was to depict a situation where March survived, and the fact that it was not conveyed is my fault as an author'.

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closer to a 'March didn't die' => 'therefore she survived'.

In my original plan for this scene March was not injured by Joe. Instead, when Tetra activated she flailed defensively with her life fibers, and managed to knock March away from completing the execution, injuring her in the process. March then retreats from the fight as Joe has to deal with attacks by Lung and Oni Lee. When it came time to write the scene I was having a hard time conveying the dynamics of that moment, largely because of the state Joe was in at the time.

I decided to shift to a direct confrontation between Joe and March for a number of reasons. I thought the pacing worked better in how the scene was presented. That situation would result in March being more heavily injured, making the incident with the call gem a more desperate maneuver. It would also make Joe directly responsible for her condition, meaning a more personal connections going forward. In addition, it would allow me to convey the seriousness of Joe's physical and mental condition under the effects of his injury and life fiber influence, given that he DIDN'T finish off March, something any clear thinking person would do.

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Just as feedback Tetra doing the damage might have worked better. It is much more believable for her to survive getting flailed at than Joe's punch and lack of follow up. The mental state at least for me didn't get carried over too well; I was expecting more hyper focused tunnel vision on the object of his anger than the drifting focus to fighting Lung. Possibly on me as a reader.

Admittedly March getting away with minor injuries and leaving under her own power would have gone over much worse. The arc has been long, and arc fatigue is setting in; some of the audience just wants things over with - her walking away would mean the arc is in no way shape or form done. I am very happy that didn't happen.

Part of the problem the readers have is we have a very limited view of what is happening. For example with March we don't get to see how she set stuff up, or how Joe makes issues she can recover from. All we get to see is "Behold my Master plan!" until it fails catastrophically. The more an event edges into "it just works" the harder it is to accept or deal with. How Bakuda made thousands of bombs and performed hundreds of surgeries might have a good in story reason- we just don't get to see it. For example: " If it takes 5 mins for her to make a bomb, she can make 12/hr, or 288/day (no sleep). Mass production can't be done because she is a Tinker, but she cheats via X" When we just see the end result which tends to give a WTF reaction.

With March unless we get to see how it happens from her perspective it doesn't come across as a desperate gamble that she won, we get to see the end result "March lived" despite everything everything else indicating she should have died. Any one of the following could/should have put her down: the anime punch (she doesn't operate on anime physics after all), loosing an arm (barring blood loss shouldn't shock do something?, and finally hitting the Call Bead with sting didn't blow it up (instead of a boom she gets healed /absorbed into her shard? was that thing connected to her shard in particular? How?). Not having the investment from her POV we are more likely to be critical of what we perceive as inconsistencies, especially ones that lead up to things we don't like.

See above how you flat out said March would not have died any way that scene was getting written.

 

[deadlyham]

Will you add my fanart to the thread marks?

I tried my best. Drawing hair is hard.

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Thanks for taking the time wading through the comments.

With that amount of effort, the idea that I know have to make something up to my readers feels off-putting.

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When dealing with internet commenters, you need to have strong steady hands... For punishing them. After Worm fans woobie-fied Amy, Wildbow gave us Wards Amy.

 

[theflyingbiscuit]

Finally caught up with all the comments.

What is the most dangerous weapon you think Apeiron can make. For me it's satellites that fire the most durable, heavy, and dense rods he can make infused with dust and runes fired at light speed

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Apeiron 9000.

Yo guys, what would be the most intimidating things Joe can say if there's a Somer's Rock meeting for whatever reason? I'll start

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"You know now that you mention it, I should conquer hell. I will put that on my to do list."

"Sorry, I was just re-making my food" *bite sound* "so much better."

Edit: trinkets he made for them on the spot maybe?

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"Here are 5 cakes. Don't eat all of any single cake because then it can regenerate into a brand new cake and you can have more cake. Don't worry about them spoiling because I make my cakes better then that."

 

[rollobeast]

I think the last chapter came out fine, I didn't see any glaring plot holes (or anything worse than what there would be by virtue of being a Worm fic) or handwaving, ect.
Honestly, any problems I can think of, are really issues of what I wanted to see versus what happened, not in any way a case of what happened somehow being wrong.
Just because I wanted

Spoiler

Glen to survive in The Walking Dead, or Ned Stark to escape in Game of Thrones

doesn't mean the story is bad when events occur differently.

 

[Nimeroni]

Does it? I am a bit unsure exactly how the "50% fail rate if you don't have the proper material" would work without the soul. It is jump fiat, but there is a level where it makes no sense to for it to function.

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Jump fiat often doesn't make sense. For example, why would Joe spontaneously create 4 extra copies of anything he make ? Where are the materials coming from ? Why does singing to his sandwich make it tastier ? How does the blades Joe made for the Undersiders self repaired after exactly 2 days ?

But the "how" doesn't matter. Fiat work, that's it. If it help your suspension of disbelief, you can think of fiat as a direct divine intervention (that's often how it's framed, with jump-chan the god that provide the intervention), or as if the jumper is a reality warper that rewrite the rules of reality so that fiat work.

 

[wakshazi]

Jump fiat often doesn't make sense. For example, why would Joe spontaneously create 4 extra copies of anything he make ? Where are the materials coming from ? Why does singing to his sandwich make it tastier ? How does the blades Joe made for the Undersiders self repaired after exactly 2 days ?

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I agree, Lord just said it couldn't be done sans souls. But with the perk if he accepts a 50% failure rate it might still get a working crest. I was wondering about whether or not it would work. Admittedly he might rule Joe finds the chance too dangerous when applied to a human subject, or souls are too hard for him right now.

 

[Saugo]

The idea of needing to recover from the last chapter is totally understandable, but also does not sit well with me. I think that's mainly because of the amount of effort I have put into this story over the past nine months. Almost all of my free time has gone into either writing the story, planning the story, or familiarizing myself with more media to be included in the story. With that amount of effort, the idea that I know have to make something up to my readers feels off-putting. I understand the last chapter was not well received, and a number of people are considering leaving the story. I know that the next few chapters will decide if they continue, but having it framed like an obligation, like I had some penance to perform, hit me harder than I expected.

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You shouldn't take it that way. This is non profit fanfiction, there's nothing to make up for. Sure some readers might have an entitled viewpoint where they expect things from you, but it's just a distorted way of looking at things and you should never share that yourself. The fact remains that this story is basically a gift from you to us, and any passive aggressive comments from readers about quitting the story if you don't write the way they like, should just be ignored as the whining that they are. It's unfortunately also something that can't be avoided with a story this big, since there's always the part of readers that feel the need to point out they're leaving, instead of just, you know, leaving.

Instead, take comfort in the fact that this story sees a lot of traffic, and that alone should tell you much about it's good quality. Just make sure you have fun writing, that's the best part about fanfiction, and one of the few parts that really matter.

 

[AntaeusTheGiant]

Heavy Sigh.

Well, the thing is, those of us who love this story, and I suppose those who don't but still feel the need to read it, are all most likely enjoying different aspects of it. Myself, I enjoy the Tech buildups and the interactions of powers most of all, the human/social interactions next, and the combat scenes third. Don't mistake that--I did enjoy the combat scenes, esp. the storage lot scenes most people seemed to hate, but what keeps me coming back is the tech. Let's just say I'm more of a Sim or basebuilder fan and less of a 1st person shooter fan. So when someone says the combat scenes were not as fulfilling as they liked and that made the tech buildup worthless, that doesn't make much sense to those of us who are literally here for the tech buildup and tolerate the combat because we know that is what others like.

So, LordRoustabout, since the people who liked combat didn't seem to appreciate your latest offering, maybe emphasize the tech buildup a bit more, because I for one have no complaints. And if the criticism here is getting you down, consider posting the other places for a while and letting good old SV cool down a bit, and maybe those who keep threatening to leave will wander off in the meanwhile.

 

[klassekatze]

The idea of needing to recover from the last chapter is totally understandable, but also does not sit well with me...

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I'd like to chime in on the whole 'you don't owe anybody anything' train. Despite carrying my own misgivings and dislike for some of your narrative choices, I was frankly a little off-put when I read those sort of statements myself, despite the fact that they were directed at you. Frankly, posts like that are a staggering display of both entitlement and (for lack of a better word) arrogance - you're better than me in this; the last time I had someone say something half as presumptuous in one of my story threads I all but told them to get bent

The truth is you get a lot of heat, both in defense of you and against you, because your writing is exceptional. Literally - it is rare to see this much volume, it is rare to see this much technical excellence in writing, but it is especially rare to see both at the same time.

If you weren't great, they wouldn't be invested, they wouldn't care enough to complain at all.

I do think there are some issues with communication - ranging from things like the Lung spoiler controversy to a more general issue. For example, your first commentary post since the last chapter seemed to carry a mixed message to me. You seemed to be 'taking responsibility', but at the same time you did not appear to think (and still don't?) there was anything 'wrong' with your narrative choices. Which is your prerogative... but the issue is that I legitimately wasn't sure what you were trying to say.

Spoiler: spoiler ahead?

Terms like author fiat, plot armor, idiot ball, ass-pull, or railroading are signs that the suspension of disbelief has broken down, that the work needed to make a narrative decision feel natural has failed. That is what I was acknowledging.

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This now reinforces that - that all you were doing was saying "I didn't send the message the way I wanted", not that you agreed that there was a problem with the narrative choices themselves.

I can understand not wanting to discuss your narrative plans or plots, but even something as sharp as "Despite reader response, I think March surviving is best for the story" would carry a much clearer message.

But...

The specific points you raised really resonated with me because of the original way I had planned to write the scene. I don't normally get into drafts and writing process, since that is probably worse for suspension of disbelief than anything that can happen in a story, but for anyone who wants to look behind the curtain I've included some details of the original version of the scene.

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Regardless of the specific point of contention, I think that if your goal first and foremost is to improve as a writer, you can't not discuss the narrative. If that's the reason you don't really respond to certain kinds of complaints or inquiries, I think you should reconsider that stance.

My understanding is that BCF was started to improve your writing. Just as with the Celestial Forge itself, it is a tool, however much people enjoy it. If you avoid discussing potential weak points in your writing because the discussion might negatively impact the reading experience for people who read the discussion, you're acting in opposition to that original purpose. BCF is transient - it has flaws, it will end, and you'll write another story that is even better. But every story you write hereafter will benefit from any discussion, and BCF alone will suffer from any 'damage' to SoD.

And frankly, I think it would reduce a lot of the salt. I'm not that emotionally invested in BCF, and I still feel a little frustration because sometimes, criticism - good or bad - seems to get a whole lotta nothin'.

 

[Graviator]

I am a bit unsure exactly how the "50% fail rate if you don't have the proper material" would work without the soul. It is jump fiat, but there is a level where it makes no sense to for it to function.

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Eh, he's already making true AIs. It's not too implausible that he could extend that by making an artificial soul substitute.

That is, if he doesn't mind the product acting like it's using robot souls.

 

[wakshazi]

Parahumans can still get Aura. Their souls aren't in their shards until they die. The link is more of a way to make sure the 'soul' goes to shardspace rather than the generic, unreachable afterlife that other souls go to.

While it is possible to turn a parahuman into an Esper with hard science, that is also an excellent way to horribly kill them. Joe's potential Esper powers are protected by jump fiat, but everyone else would have the normal mechanics of the system, including the consequences of what happens if an Esper uses magic. With parahuman abilities counting as magic and many of them not having off switches it will get real messy real fast.

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How much interest would shards have in people running around with aura or Esper powers? Esper powers in particular resemble some shard powers, and this kind of new data could be very interesting. I could see a bit of "helping" to get data from them.

Of course that is dependent on people getting aura/Esper powers from Joe, and then using them anyway so it might be a moot point.

 

[Mojave Courier]

Admittedly he might rule Joe finds the chance too dangerous when applied to a human subject, or souls are too hard for him right now.

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True. Joe already doesn't like wet tinkering. Soul manipulation just opens up so many ethical questions.

I doubt we'll see him using souls anytime soon.

 

[Foxy Boxes]

I understand the last chapter was not well received

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By some Lord, it wasn't well received by some. Never forget that those that comment tend to be a very small minority, and those that respond positively even smaller. That doesn't mean that either of those groups proportionally represent the larger, silent majority.

 

[BlaUSEast]

I think at least part of it was build up, after a large arc like that, it was inevitable some people were going to be disappointed. The stronger Joe gets in the story, the more likely it is you'll probably get criticism on the fights. At the end of the day, my thought is that the real struggle with this story will likely become balancing it so that he doesn't seem too powerful, but at the same time doesn't seem too weak. There have been plenty of stories I've enjoyed that go either way, ones where I've thought they seemed a bit underpowered for what they were portrayed as, as well as the opposite. At the end of the day, what's kept me interested in them regardless, is usually either exceptional writing, or the author having good reasoning. You've had both. Hope you continue to enjoy your work as much as I have.

 

[RexHeller]

This is my first time commenting on this fic. I usually don't read threads between chapters and just read the story. Takes up too much time otherwise. But I heard that people were complaining about the latest chapter and felt like I had to add my two cents. Namely, that the chapter was fucking awesome and I can't wait for more. I know how rough a bad reception to a big chapter can be and I hope that I can add a little bit of encouragement to ease the load. This story seriously rocks.

 

[SomeDude]

Welp sometimes you start reading an interesting fic and before you know it you've read 700k words by the next day...

 

[ImBuda]

Dont stop this fanfic, it is one of the best fanfics I've ever seen. The only reason there are a lot of bad comments is that people do really care so much about the world you have made. Please continue!!!!

 

[andreykl]

Thanks for nice chapter!

Shouldn't most magic systems be fine for espers to use? The conflict between science and magic in the Index universe is very much specific to that universe and the various different magic sources in the forge operate on entirely differently rules.

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I got the impression that issue comes not from conflict between two radically different powers, but from espers' and magician's nature: aim and personal reality vs mystery. Specifically esper powers include the need to understand variables of reality. A phenomenon that can not be understood triggers a reaction 'I can not understand it, thus it can' t exist' (likely because of twisted world view, it seems to be 'mental', but might be 'soul' level) will harm personal reality and harm body as result. It is specifically called damaging rejection reaction.

In case of magicians' it is the opposite - esper overwrites local laws and disrupts them, it affects magic that relies on certain sets of laws or effects without proper understanding (Imaginary Number District was used for such effect). In this case magic is the one doing damage because it no longer behaves like it is expected to.

An Esper that expects certain variables might not be able to handle shard based powers even if those weren't magic. Shards are going to be hard pressed to adjust to progressing and unnatural set of laws that exists within AIM fields.

As far as Espers are concerned, Shard-powers are 'magic' and it will either get understood or will cause damaging rejection.

Shards have a lack of creativity, so they are likely to brute-force the issue causing issues for esper (ex: disrupting aim causes esper to lose control, RSPK Syndrome, which will spiral into more things for shard to brute force through and more issues for esper)

P.S. Espers do not conflict whith each other, but instead 'stregthen' each other's AIM's, likely because of working on same vawe and same set of knowledge. They understand what the other one does.

Edit: Esper powers can also be theoretically reproduced by technology (and sometimes they do get reproduced), unlike magic. Academy city was founded specifically to study and reproduce those quantum pocket realities with technology. Studying esper powers propelled science of the city by decades.
Magic on the other hand can not be reproduced by technolgy, nor be understood at the level of Index's society.

 

[Albert]

You know, there's still time to find Bakuda before she dies of cancer and turn her over to the Laboritorium as servitor material.

 

[theflyingbiscuit]

Thanks for nice chapter!

I got the impression that issue comes not from conflict between two radically different powers, but from espers' and magician's nature: aim and personal reality vs mystery. Specifically esper powers include the need to understand variables of reality. A phenomenon that can not be understood, is believed to not exist (gets ignored? likely because of twisted world view) will harm personal reality and harm body as result. It is specifically called damaging rejection reaction.

In case of magician's it is the opposite - esper overwrites local laws and disrupts them, it affects magic that relies on certain sets of laws or effects without proper understanding (Imaginary Number District). In this case magic is the one doing damage because it no longer behaves like it is supposed to.

An Esper that expects certain variables might not be able to handle shard based powers even if those weren't magic. Shards are going to be hard pressed to adjust to progressing and unnatural set of laws that exists within aim fields.

As far as Espers are concerned, Shard-powers are 'magic' and it will either get understood or will cause damaging rejection.

Shards have a lack of creativity, so they are likely to brute-force the issue causing issues for esper (ex: disrupting aim causes esper to lose control, RSPK Syndrome, which will spiral into more things for shard to brute force through and more issues for esper)

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Once again the raildex confusion of magic and science continues.

"I overwrite the laws of local reality in my own individual, if an internally consistent way, that is unreproducible by others who have their own individual way that cannot be predicted beforehand. If we were to grab someone else, we could probably not get them to do the things I do and that makes a sample size of one for every experiment. This is opposed to your consistent way of utilizing the way the world currently works, has worked for before you came around, and, assuming no one breaks anything, will continue afterwards. Since we wear the lab coats here, we must be the scientists in this relationship."