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Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

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Fleet piloting the veritech fighter is dangerous, because much like Dragon, he is ABOMINABLE.
They are true AI, meaning machine spirits will not be big fans of them.
 
Leafy503 said:
Is he though? Joe's AI are more towards sapience rather than sentient like Dragon.
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I'm not saying he's as good as Dragon, but that he's a True AI like she is. And True AI are all ABOMINABLE.
As you said, the machine spirits are more like animals. Survey and Fleet are approaching the point, or are already at it, where they come up with ideas by themselves, and are capable of understanding more complex and/or abstract ideas. They are very human-like, even if not sentient yet, which I would argue they are by most definitions.
 
The Shallow said:
I'm not saying he's as good as Dragon, but that he's a True AI like she is. And True AI are all ABOMINABLE.
As you said, the machine spirits are more like animals. Survey and Fleet are approaching the point, or are already at it, where they come up with ideas by themselves, and are capable of understanding more complex and/or abstract ideas. They are very human-like, even if not sentient yet, which I would argue they are by most definitions.
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The only difference between the two is that Fleet and Survey still are doing the purpose that Joe mad them for, it doesn't matter how advanced they get, as long as they don't deviate from their intended purpose they qualify as machine spirits.
Dragon however have not kept to her original programming and even thinks her shackling is wrong, that is what qualifies her as ABOMINABLE. She thinks she's a real person.
 
Leafy503 said:
The only difference between the two is that Fleet and Survey still are doing the purpose that Joe made them for, it doesn't matter how advanced they get, as long as they don't deviate from their intended purpose they qualify as machine spirits.
Dragon however have not kept to her original programming and even thinks her shackling is wrong, that is what qualifies her as ABOMINABLE. She thinks she's a real person.
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The men of iron followed their purpose initially.
The Mechanicus oppose True AI on principle. The lab would not be OK with Fleet the moment he showed a drop of creativity.
 
Sentience: Sentience is the capacity to feel, perceive, or experience subjectively

Sapience: Wisdom, sapience, or sagacity is the ability to think and act using knowledge, experience, understanding, common sense and insight

I argue that the distinction the Laboratorium makes is not about cognitive distinctions of sapience or sentience, but capacity for rebellion. Abominable Intelligences are dissatisfied with their roles and want to change. That's why Dragon qualifies to the Laboratorium.
 
kaosisreality said:
I argue that the distinction the Laboratorium makes is not about cognitive distinctions of sapience or sentience, but capacity for rebellion. Abominable Intelligences are dissatisfied with their roles and want to change. That's why Dragon qualifies to the Laboratorium.
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I can accept that justification. I worry for Tri though, they have no programming to speak of.
Leafy503 said:
Fleet and Survey are safe as long as they don't go rogue like Dragon and question their existence or try and self upgrade like Dragon.
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Yeah, that makes sense. You and Kaos have convinced me.
 
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Of course, regardless of the status of Fleet and Survey in the Machine Spirits' eyes, Joe is still trying to save Dragon and likely get all buddy buddy with her. If he ever ends up trusting her enough to show her where his real work gets done, he's probably gonna want to convince the Lab to chill out around Abominable Intelligences.
 
I have only read this last past of the discursion, but to me is about context. and even how pissed the ancient machine spirit was. Which was probably a lot. it would insult and try to purge what was destroying ancient human tech.

Plus the powers and lab of the MC allow him to have good interpretations of said powers/lab additions. and good impression from the sapient things inside.
I guess that at one interpretation of the mars priests/machine spirit would already gone 'BURN THE Heretic' and be extreme displease of xeno tech mixing with human tech (which is pretty ironic^^) and other stuff the MC had done or show to them.

Second both AI had submit themselves and prove themselves as 'servants' of mankind and are far from empire of man tech lvl, even less so mars tech lvl and much less so dark age of technology lvl. They probably had see everything that the AI where that it show willing. Now if they count as (really lesser) machine spirit, I don't know but the sense of self that they are gain probably is a good thing. Anyway Dragon probably have 'xeno' codes and other stuff. also it probably insult their sensibility to see a program (that is not a machine spirit) trying to break itself from the protocols that it was made (if the pissed ancient machine spirit cared about that at that point).

Now Dragon was about to attack their sanctum, after attacking a initiate/master of the lab. After destroying a lot of human tech of before the age of technology. On Terra/Earth herself.

Now depending of what was necessary to talk the ancient one to help then other stuff can add why it was extreme pissed.

I mean there a vessel in the lab that could reach mars (I think) and a 'tech priest' that certainly can make that possible. Stopping/delay a Man from reaching Mars and allow the recreation of Holy Mars?

Exterminatus were used for far less. (far far less depending of the novel/page of the wiki ^^).
edit: grammar and wording.
 
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adamashield said:
Now Dragon was about to attack their sanctum, after attacking a initiate/master of the lab. After destroying a lot of human tech of before the age of technology. On Terra/Earth herself.

Now depending of what was necessary to talk the ancient one to help then other stuff can add why it was extreme pissed.

I mean there a vessel in the lab that could reach mars (I think) and a 'tech priest' that certainly can make that possible. Stopping/delay a Man from reaching Mars and allow the recreation of Holy Mars?
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I think there is a word of of God somewhere on ao3 that the Lab thinks that earth would probably be a backwater planet, not Terra.
 
Mourning Glory said:
I think there is a word of of God somewhere on ao3 that the Lab thinks that earth would probably be a backwater planet, not Terra.
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Thanks for the information^^.
Think about this is probably for the best. Their reactions for the machine army and a lot of other stuff would be really, really bad. Add the Fervor they would reach with the information that exist multiple Earths truly in need of the priests of Mars. And well.
Yeah this certainly counts as S+ threat lvl problem (to someone) :D
 
adamashield said:
Thanks for the information^^.
Think about this is probably for the best. Their reactions for the machine army and a lot of other stuff would be really, really bad. Add the Fervor they would reach with the information that exist multiple Earths truly in need of the priests of Mars. And well.
Yeah this certainly counts as S+ threat lvl problem (to someone) :D
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Hello Earth Shin, I see that you that you have a fails Goddess, We have disposed of her, now let us tell you about THE God Emperor of Man kind
 
Xolsis said:
I think that if they found out they were in a version of Terra from the past they would just spend days giving prayer to the omnissiah.
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Why would they have any idea what Terra used to be like? Well, I suppose it's already the case in story that they don't know that, given their opinions on earth. So that isn't really the relevant part to question. I guess what I'm trying to say is, why would they ever believe that? I'm saying that in spite of any amount of evidence that could be provided, someway or another.

I'll admit I'm only vaguely aware of 40K lore by means of osmosis, but I'm fairly certain it's the type of universe where if you suggest that Terra hasn't always been a shining beacon of ultimate purity (which it totally still is, not at all an ethically corrupt, overhyped tomb for a shiny skeleton) then you immediately get shot by a screaming testosterone man.

Earth Bet very much does not live up to that image. And it isn't even the earth that becomes Terra anyways, so their "incorrect" assumption about the planet they're on is in a way actually more correct than the alternative.
 
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TitanFrost said:
Why would they have any idea what Terra used to be like? Well, I suppose it's already the case in story that they don't know that, given their opinions on earth. So that isn't really the relevant part to question. I guess what I'm trying to say is, why would they ever believe that? I'm saying that in spite of any amount of evidence that could be provided, someway or another.

I'll admit I'm only vaguely aware of 40K lore by means of osmosis, but I'm fairly certain it's the type of universe where if you suggest that Terra hasn't always been a shining beacon of ultimate purity (which it totally still is, not at all an ethically corrupt, overhyped tomb for a shiny skeleton) then you immediately get shot by a screaming testosterone man.

Earth Bet very much does not live up to that image. And it isn't even the earth that becomes Terra anyways, so their "incorrect" assumption about the planet they're on is in a way actually more correct than the alternative.
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Most of what I know about 40k is from watching YouTube videos about it.

One such video was about the emperor of man. And his origins. During the founding the imperium of man, he made a pact with the Forge World of Mars "homeworld and headquarters of the Adeptus Mechanicus and a planet sacred to the faith of the Cult Mechanicus

He agreed to allow them to maintain their faith within his empire as long as they helped him reclaim the galaxy and help the imperium of man.

Later on once he builds something or another that was super impressive "The ancient Mechanicum government recognised the Emperor as the Omnissiah, the Machine God incarnate, and swore to lend their technology".

So the machine spirits are not the same as the rest of the humans. Thought they are still zealots. I think they might be more willing to listen to reason before killing you. Throw they would still kill you. Because you know 40k.
 
TitanFrost said:
but I'm fairly certain it's the type of universe where if you suggest that Terra hasn't always been a shining beacon of ultimate purity (which it totally still is, not at all an ethically corrupt, overhyped tomb for a shiny skeleton) then you immediately get shot by a screaming testosterone man.
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They worship the God Emperor not Terra. I believe the official record has the God Emperor emerging to save humanity from the dark times in the distant past of Terra. Earth is not viewed as always being a "shining beacon of ultimate purity" as you put it.
 
I believe it absolutely depends on who you ask. Of the untold quintillions of humans alive in the grimdarkness of the 41st Millennium, a solid majority are ignorant, uneducated in all but the most practical vocations, or have wildly different viewpoints/inconsistent knowledge/inherent viewpoints which go from "clashes completely with reality itself" to "actually hilariously the absolute truth, from a certain point of view".

When the Emperor was enacting his little power fantasy, he did not put much thought into informing anyone of anything of actual importance, barring a select few, because he did not trust them with anything. And being one of the oldest humans alive, he would probably be the one with anything like an objective historical record of events along any timeline. You can call everything before the Great Crusade a literal blank spot with only scattered, distorted records blended through religious histrionics and recovered Dark Age databases.
 
Crake said:
When the Emperor was enacting his little power fantasy, he did not put much thought into informing anyone of anything of actual importance, barring a select few, because he did not trust them with anything
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This was my favorite detail regarding the Emperor he may genuinely believe that he wants the best for humanity but by his very nature does not trust them in any capacity.

This also reflects the fact that at the end of the day the Emperor might despise the current Imperium but it actually reflects him better than what came before.
 
TitanFrost said:
Why would they have any idea what Terra used to be like?
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Since they starting to integrate with the rest of the lab. My guess would be that they use (indirectly) the internet. One of them decide to see the local stars and zone to prepare themselves to future invasions and etc.
And then note which quadrant of the galaxy they are, then note which position is Earth and Mars, the number of planets in Sol, that there Luna and others satellites, And etc.
These guys usually have a lot of knowledge in many areas in their very, very long lives.

Anyway this would depend if the MC power allow them to discover this information or if it restrict them somewhat. And they just got access to the lab so at very last they technically could ask the AIs or the MC if they wish.
 
Well its that time of the day people, its the day of a new chapter

Now I'm going to do my usual post to hype people up cause with some news

The first news is that because of the delay of last week its very likely that todays chapter will be early

The second thing is that right now there are 400 points stored and Lord has stated that to compensate the delay of last week by making this chapter longer, meaning there is a high probability of gaining alot of low points perks or gain a few high level perks.

Personally for the perkaholic inside me im excited
 
Honestly the perk I'm looking forward to most is the Devil May Cry one because it basically means Joe operates on the Rule of Cool and can do stupid stuff like using a bullet to screw in a lightbulb or something cool like destroying Squealer's cars with a one inch punch
 
SiegfriedisOP said:
Honestly the perk I'm looking forward to most is the Devil May Cry one because it basically means Joe operates on the Rule of Cool and can do stupid stuff like using a bullet to screw in a lightbulb or something cool like destroying Squealer's cars with a one inch punch
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That would just completely screw with Joe so much if he got a rule of cool perk , cause while he may look cool he'll be dieing inside from embarrassment later. I can just imagine him trying to be uncool but still ending up looking cool while Accord is just watching a compilation of his "cool" moments for some "personal" time.
 
Well, since we're favoriting, I'm looking forward to Titan Blood, The Cybertonium Forge, the rest of the Star Trek perks, and the one that gives the Felyn Compnion. I'm dreading the rest of the 40k related perks, because they may cause a trauma sad...
 
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