Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

[DeusVult]

That mindset isn't alien to me; I'm completely able to imagine the mental state of insane people; what that mindset is to me is a seeming mistranslation.

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And yet you seem to be unable to fathom that people could think of beings as gods while not worshiping them. Which is what those people did. Furthermore, implying that they were insane is utterly beyond the pale.

They were not monotheists. They did not believe their gods to be perfect or allpowerful. There is no mistranslation. That is simply how the people of the past thought.

The mere fact that you have to describe them as "insane" only shows how you, in fact, do not understand how those people thought.

 

[ExploerTM]

bro you're thinking way to much like an atheist instead of someone for whom gods are a fact of life, how can you claim to understand anything about this if you can't even leave your 21 century worldview behind 😂

edit: you're trying to argue that pure math doesn't make sense with social science principles when you haven't even understood what addition is as a concept

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Its not even like atheist since I find argument perfectly logical. Its just selecting and using facts that benefit your argument and ignoring anything else.

I am not sure if this is right or not, but my friend once upon a time called himself a theist and explained that it (at least in his interpretation) means that he believes that gods do in fact exist but he is not worshiping any particular one.

 

[Tackyseven]

That mindset isn't alien to me; I'm completely able to imagine the mental state of insane people; what that mindset is to me is a seeming mistranslation.

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???? Are you saying that historians focusing on bronze to iron age cultures are wrong in what they belive we know about these cultures? it's undisputable fact that gods where a part of life in that time?

maybe I'm misunderstand what you mean when you say mistranslation, please elaborate

They were not monotheists. They did not believe their gods to be perfect or allpowerful. There is no mistranslation. That is simply how the people of the past thought.

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(except jews)

Its not even like atheist since I find argument perfectly logical. Its just selecting and using facts that benefit your argument and ignoring anything else.

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Yes exactly! deus vult gave a completely logical chain of thought with a clear "Because A, B, which leads to C" I don't understand what there was to argue about in the logic chain

I am not sure if this is right or not, but my friend once upon a time called himself a theist and explained that it (at least in his interpretation) means that he believes that gods do in fact exist but he is not worshiping any particular one.

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Yeah that is a valid theist I guess? sounds like he's a polytheistic agnostic or something (not sure) never heard of someone with a world view like that before today, very interesting

 

[Anomalous Object]

???? Are you saying that historians focusing on bronze to iron age cultures are wrong in what they belive we know about these cultures? it's undisputable fact that gods where a part of life in that time?

maybe I'm misunderstand what you mean when you say mistranslation, please elaborate

(except jews)

Yes exactly! deus vult gave a completely logical chain of thought with a clear "Because A, B, which leads to C" I don't understand what there was to argue about in the logic chain

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Basically a reiteration of your earlier point about being supernatural not being divine except applied to what some people were outright calling a god. At least assuming that that was you; I'm not great at tracking who is arguing which point.

 

[Tackyseven]

Basically a reiteration of your earlier point about being supernatural not being divine except applied to what some people were outright calling a god. At least assuming that that was you; I'm not great at tracking who is arguing which point.

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Oh ok, mistranslation of the word divine? or something else cuz like fae are supernatural but they aren't traditionally divine, same with like trolls or changelings all clearly "supernatural" beings but not divine

 

[tvo770]

Yeah that is a valid theist I guess? sounds like he's a polytheistic agnostic or something (not sure) never heard of someone with a world view like that before today, very interesting

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Agnostic theism

 

[Tackyseven]

Basically a reiteration of your earlier point about being supernatural not being divine except applied to what some people were outright calling a god. At least assuming that that was you; I'm not great at tracking who is arguing which point.

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divine is defined by oxford as something either being God/a god or coming from one so things like a demigod or an angel has a divine orgin while things like a fae or a nordic troll or "most" parahuman powers are only supernatural (defined as something beyond the understanding of science and the natural laws). I say "most" because their are teams like haven who I'm pretty sure belive that powers come from yhwy. so to them it's both supernatural and divine, (can't explain it with the current science but also has a clear divine origin)

So there's a difference between something supernatural and divine, academically

 

[drvash]

Anyone who worshiped me as divine could show up in my Workshop after they died.

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I'm worried Coil will leak Rachel's date with Fleet to the Teeth so Apeiron is forced to put down Butch XIV once and for all, so I hope Rachel's soul ends up in the Workshop if she gets killed by Butcher XIV or the Teeth.

Why Rachel? She honestly believed Joe could handle Dragon, the world's greatest tinker, much like how a dog (Rachel is a dog's brain in a human body) has absolute faith their master/alpha or packmates.

Or how a young child "worships" Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny, sincere belief combined with minor "rituals" like leaving out milk and cookies or color-dying eggs.

ALL DOGS GO TO HEAVEN!!!

Joe: "You believed in me? Why?"

Rachel's soul: "Why not? You care about us, look out for us, and work hard to give us cool gifts. You're like Santa Claus, or the Easter Bunny, or the Queen of England.*"

Joe:

*Megamind reference.

Spoiler: Megamind reference

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A3HLWtHYWA

 

[Red_Faux]

How "Monstrous" for Monstrous Strength is "Titans Blood"? Does that perk count inner unnaturalness or just outward appearance? Would a Titans connection to the earth be a negative influence to the perk instead?

 

[Tackyseven]

I'm worried Coil will leak Rachel's date with Fleet to the Teeth so Apeiron is forced to put down Butch XIV once and for all, so I hope Rachel's soul ends up in the Workshop if she gets killed by Butcher XIV or the Teeth.

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Why would he do that, no one literally no one want a butcher apeiron of the capes in the bay least of all coil

 

[EasyCo]

I genuinely don't say this to be sarcastic or anything, but could someone spoil for me how me chapters are expected to pass before he actually interacts with people outside his personal realm/therapy? I've spent the last few months skimming through looking forward to him interacting with the outside world again (especially with Taylor) and his upcoming confrontation with the S9, but nothing has really happened in the last few months and it's a little tiring.

Again I seriously don't mind spoilers, I'm just hoping for an idea for when he goes out and does anything.

 

[Psiidmon]

Lots of debate over me pointing out that Vista still thinks of him as 'Mammon' aka a demon, and that i thought it could have been hinted at. Sorry for causing all the bolded worded yelling yall.

 

[Broovian]

Since no one else I can see has brought it up, of all the named characters likely to start worshipping Joe, it'll be Rory.

My best guess is Joe starts helping the Case 53s, it gets recorded, while Joe is working he drops some figurative passenger bombs, Rory watches recording, he realizes there's an actual chance he could get in contact with Apeiron, puts all his faith in that to avoid going into histerics after a close call, starts getting visions that tip him over from passive worship to active worship, becomes leader of local Apeiron cult.

 

[Slentoru]

Again I seriously don't mind spoilers, I'm just hoping for an idea for when he goes out and does anything.

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Next time Joe goes out of Workshop will be in 5-7 chapters, to Garment's charity event. At least that is the plan, Faultline's crew might throw a wrench in Joe's rest of an evening.

Also, that will interest you, and you probably skipped it, here's full plan of how Joe will deal with the Nine, right from the text:

To confront the Nine alongside zombie version of everyone they'd 'killed' on the way to Brockton Bay

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Yeah, he has gone psychico with power and grew an ego in recent chapters. Alongside other things.

 

[AntaeusTheGiant]

Heavy Sigh.

I hate to get too much into theology, esp. since I'm in something of a doubtful phase of it myself, but...

We have seen arguments here from Monotheists, from non-theists, from theoretical agnostics, but none from the viewpoint of those most likely to decide to worship Aperion (the Enigmatic Artificer), namely, those who are some form of Pagan, Neo-pagan, or Pantheist. New Agers would count.

View: https://youtu.be/ccb2GsnOoBM

So, if a person believes that everything is God, that forces of Nature are god, that other people are god, or that the literal ancient pantheons are real and worship them (and trust me, I don't know about Earth Bet, but all of these are certainly present on our Earth), then lighting a candle to a particularly powerful Parahuman (or believed-to-be Parahuman in this case) is far from unexpected. I know of people who have altars to America set up, including a picture of whoever the current president is, and offer incense or other things to it. Also, if you believe the ancient Romans did not worship the Gods of those they conquered, you need to do a bit more research. There are several forms of worship.. the form you would do to the gods of a people you are at war with is called propitiation, offering them things to mitigate the anger they have towards you for attacking their people. And once the battles were over, more often than not, regular worship would begin. After the Celtic people were conquered, for example, Epona became one of the most popular deities in the Empire, esp. by people whose life depended on horses, like farmers, merchants, and cavalry members.

As far as having to believe someone is a god to worship them.. (even if that is in a new agey, all are god sort of way),.. that would depend on whether veneration counts as worship for the purposes of the Workshop. I don't even want to bring this up, but since it's relevant.. Protestants often accuse Catholics of worshiping the Saints, which the Catholics deny. But, the ancient Greeks would flat out worship heros, esp. heros from the local area, without believing they were gods. SO, there are some things that some people consider worship that is done to those they do not consider god. Ancestor worship is also common in some belief systems, and again, those who burn incense to Grandma don't have to believe that she has become a god to do so.

Well, that's about enough of that. Going to fix supper now..

 

[Xedornox]

Just a thought I had after reading through the posts.

You know that perk that makes it so anyone who look's or thinks of Joe/Aperion know he is Divine? -He doesn't currently have it, I dont think.-

How would that express itself cause there's two different paths in my mind currently. The first is it being similar to his The Enigmatic Artificer which many people would just shrug off seeing it as the same power just making them think he is Divine but the second is it forces them to understand that he is Divine. That it is a fundemental truth of his being not something that can be denied, that I don't see being something they could shrug off.

In the end it would still be seen as a master or stranger power, but the way in which it expresses itself would change how it would affect things.

Anyone got any other ideas on how such a power would express itself?

 

[AntaeusTheGiant]

Let's look at the quote:

Those who look upon you in raised Aspect know, instantly and surely that you are divine, that you embody a facet of creation. Any powers raised in harmony with your raised Aspect are magnified and exalted – they are more than just spells or mutation, they are in service of the very order of the universe.

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Earlier it indicates this is something that takes energy to maintain, to "raise" the aspect. I would take that to mean he could choose not to raise it as well. Knowing Jozef, it might be possible that he would only raise it in the privacy of his own workshop. As for how people would take it... I'm guessing about like they take the cat? It's just a natural part of the Universe, that Apeiron (the Enigmatic Artificer) is the God of the Forge.

 

[Tackyseven]

Anyone got any other ideas on how such a power would express itself?

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I'm thinking that it instantly triggers golden morning unless other perks somehow block that information from reaching a shard that tries to look at him, but why would it if the purpose of the skill is for everyone to understand that you are divine. Like what fiat backed perk takes priority in this case?

Cuz if ziz or tattletales shard or broadcast gets blasted with "I AM DIVINE!!!" and an forced understanding of what that means, that's a threat to entitys and/or the cycle itself. The same way wildbow wog is that an unchained AI is too so entities don't allow them in a normal cycle.

If zion doesn't handle something like that he is an idiot, whether it's an OOC thing or something he has encountered in other cycles like AI's

 

[Slentoru]

Also me: Cheri is how old again!?

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If you're shocked by this, then be astonished to know that Burnscar and Labyrinth are, and I quote from Wildbow, "twenty-ish". Here's full WoG:

stolas: On labyrinth in interlude 5. probably the most definitive you'll get - she's young, maybe prepubescent, but that's still a wide range of age, anywhere from like 9-15

Wildbow: She's twenty-ish, yeah.

stolas: oh, of worm or ward?
do you mind if i cite your message for the Word of God repository on space battles?

Wildbow: Should be ok. My concern with citing Worm WoG at this point is I've mostly offloaded it from my mental RAM, so I'm less on the ball with some things- so am just going to say I'm not 1000% sure.

But IIRC my intent was for her to be a middle-to-older teen or twenty something. I'm reasonably sure she's twenty-ish because Burnscar saw her as a peer & potential friend.

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So yeah, Labyrinth is practically Joe's age (Or closer to it, than to most Undersider's). Well, physically at least, her power clearly affected her mental growth.

 

[andreykl]

How would that express itself cause there's two different paths in my mind currently.

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The description provided by AntaeusTheGiant makes it sound more like Tybalt's 'I'm a normal paracat' power - He is normaldivine, no interpretation or doubt allowed. "What do you mean 'he isn't'? Heretic!"

'Divine' or 'facet of creation' does not have a strict difinition so how it can be perceived or if observer will even connect the dots between own feelings and vocabulary is under question or how own world view will make you process what you see (Are angels divine? Is Lucifer?).

But there seem to be other perks in the list that might have a similar effect.

Earlier it indicates this is something that takes energy to maintain, to "raise" the aspect.

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Can you provide a link to the source please? Can't find this one.
But first sentence sounded to me not like a maintenance cost, but like an investment cost. You need to raise it, but it stays there (depends onto the source fiction). Apeiron's existing aspects might count as is.

I'm thinking that it instantly triggers golden morning unless other perks somehow block that information from reaching a shard that tries to look at him

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Only if 'Scion' is doing the looking. And depending on difinition of divinity, response can vary like "it is an aspect of the world, it always was, it will keep being, like gravity or heat" to [SOLUTION] or in human speach: "It's an aspect of creation, can it be boosted till creation outpaces entropy? Can it be used to localize and defeat an aspect of entropy?" or even [PRAYER], because if it's divine => you pray, potentially for the end of entropy or ressurection of your companion.

In case of a violenent response, first target probably won't be the world at arge, but Apeiron's shard.

 

[MDK]

The whole Roman thought of the peace with the gods, forgot the Latin name for that, was that basically all gods were real and had to be appeased. So long as you didn't deny the existence of other gods, you could worship as you please.

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And that right there is why so many Jews and Christians ended up as attraction in the coliseums.
Not because they worshiped Yahweh, but because they denied the existance of the other, in most cases older, gods.

 

[AntaeusTheGiant]

Can you provide a link to the source please? Can't find this one.

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The entire aspect quote is in a post just a few above the one you linked, but the relevant sentences are "If an Attribute is the grasp of power, then the Aspect is a state of being. To wield reflections, and to become Reflection. To summon Strength and to become it." Summon strength indicates purposeful effort. Then there is "Raising your Aspect is like removing a mask or standing straight, a mustering of yourself. It takes some energy to maintain, should you wish to be capable of being anything but an avatar, but it is the exertion of being rather than the struggle to become." It takes some energy to maintain is pretty clear in my book. Of course the "but an Avatar" might include the "obviously divine" part. This is the problem with using flowery poetic language, and then us trying to sort absolute facts from it. Wow. That reminds me of something from my childhood. It couldn't have anything to do with my dad being a preacher, could it?

 

[Cheetored20]

I'm thinking that it instantly triggers golden morning unless other perks somehow block that information from reaching a shard that tries to look at him, but why would it if the purpose of the skill is for everyone to understand that you are divine. Like what fiat backed perk takes priority in this case?

Cuz if ziz or tattletales shard or broadcast gets blasted with "I AM DIVINE!!!" and an forced understanding of what that means, that's a threat to entitys and/or the cycle itself. The same way wildbow wog is that an unchained AI is too so entities don't allow them in a normal cycle.

If zion doesn't handle something like that he is an idiot, whether it's an OOC thing or something he has encountered in other cycles like AI's

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Out of context problem would return that nothing is there.

 

[Zwart Jaeger]

So one of Joe's Capstone Constellation perks is Implanted Relic, unlocked when he rolls the Pagan Science perk, and what relics he can have is based on his origins which he can't have, so Joe is limited to the Drop In Relics which are.

Argo, the ship that Jason and the Argonauts sailed on. The user is draped in sails, allowing them to drift effortlessly in the air. It can summon forth pieces of the original ship, casting great rods and nets of rigging at it's targets.

Argo is mostly defense focused, being able to summon hulls as defensive shields and laying traps of rigging and rope. Further experience with Argo's creation allows the creation of small boats and jet skis.

The Argo does not possess an Armed Gear that can be wielded like a weapon in the normal sense, excepting the components of the ship, but it is capable of creating Argonauts; small spherical drones with an attached beam of energy. These drone are relatively fragile, but can overwhelm targets with sheer numbers. Specialized drones can be created with greater experience with the Gear.

Argo's Swan Song revives the original Argo, a flying heretical ship controlled by the will of the user. The Argo appears to turn and accelerate with no regards to propulsion or cornering, and can release swarms of the Argonauts. In addition to the swarms of loyal drones and it's extreme speed, the Argo's very presence creates a great typhoon that it and it's wielder are completely unaffected by.

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Prometheus, the first flame. By calling forth embers of the original flame, a raging dimensional inferno can be started, burning both human and Noise alike. The flames spread and intensity can be limited by the wielder, and can be extinguished with a single thought, but left unchecked they burn incredibly violently. The wielder is protected from this raging heat by their Symphogear, and other Gears should have little trouble with the heat unless it is actively brought against them.

The chains wrapped around the wielders arms can be used like whips at their most basic level, heating to strike at foes, but Prometheus' true Armed Gear is the projection of these chains into disposable axes of all kinds, with it's truest form being that of an ashen chainsaw. These weapons bear superheated blades and chains, being able to burn through even the toughest Noise's defenses if they can get in range.

Prometheus' Swan Song calls forth the full might of the stolen flame, engulfing all within a massive radius in an inferno that sears the flesh of enemies from bone while rejuvenating allies, bringing them back from the brink of death. Be warned however, fire is indiscriminate, and any targets that fail to be designated as allies will suffer the same fate as enemies.

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Kibisis, the sack that contained the Medusa's severed head. The concept of 'sack' is a slight misnomer, however.

The user is given an elaborate combination of robes, cloak and hood that would be quite modest if the bodysuit wasn't so skimpy. While unassuming, the fabric that makes up Kibisis is actually a portal to an enormous self-contained pocket dimension, with the user able to manipulate the fabric to make openings into and out of it.

This is as versatile and deadly as it sounds, as Kibisis is able to not only store objects, but also use the fabric to effectively 'flash step' by traveling along a thin corridor of silk, or create a razor thin portal along it's edge to slice objects in half. Kibisis' Swan Song generates a massive dimensional disturbance, manipulating space-time to instantly stretch and destroy huge areas, while also disrupting similar dimensional shenanigans.

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Kaladanda, staff of the god of death. As intimidating as it sounds, Kaladanda's Armed Gear is actually a metal pipe. In fact, Kaladanda may as well be the tool of a plumber, as it may plant and grow all manner of water works and plumbing from itself, naturally lending itself towards creating steam-powered mechanisms, such as gigantic steam hammers and saws.

What makes these pipes unique, however, is the crimson water that flows freely from them, which carries a unique anti-life property that causes it to shred through all physical and philosophical protections, completing erasing it's target from reality in a manner reminiscent of a certain mirror.
Kaladanda's Swan Song calls forth the source of it's deathly water – a colossal steam boiler which flashes a massive amount of it's deadly contents into supercritical steam, which it forces into a tight, high-power beam to bore through even the toughest defenses.

Be careful of friendly fire, although an attentive user can selectively halt the eroding effects of the steam on allies.

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And looking at these options its pretty clear which one is the most thematically appropriate for Joe, as Prometheus the Titan is Joe's ancestor via his Titan's Blood perk, and Prometheus the relic is the flames he stole meaning that it is Hestia's Flames and Joe just spent the last chapter gushing that only his fiat granted invulnerability is the only thing he is sure could remain unharmed from it.

Also chains the relic forms fits with the weapon theme he gets from his perks like Trauma the grappling hook gauntlet and his space elevator chain weapon from Asura's Wrath, plus its drawback of its supermove affecting bystanders he deems not allies is countered by his semblance not allowing him to affect those he is not paying attention to.

 

[Yetimuetze]

And looking at these options its pretty clear which one is the most thematically appropriate for Joe, as Prometheus the Titan is Joe's ancestor via his Titan's Blood perk, and Prometheus the relic is the flames he stole meaning that it is Hestia's Flames and Joe just spent the last chapter gushing that only his fiat granted invulnerability is the only thing he is sure could remain unharmed from it.

Also chains the relic forms fits with the weapon theme he gets from his perks like Trauma the grappling hook gauntlet and his space elevator chain weapon from Asura's Wrath, plus its drawback of its supermove affecting bystanders he deems not allies is countered by his semblance not allowing him to affect those he is not paying attention to.

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You're right that Prometheus fits best thematically and I'm all for it, but you shouldn't write off kibisis and kaladanda right away.
Kibisis harmonizes with Joe's shadow element, ninja training and has the ability to fuck with space-time dimension bullshit aka shard shenanigans.
Kaladanda has the anti life water which can be very entertaining with pipes pipes pipes.
Or he can transfer the anti life property to other materials/energy.