Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

Honestly I don't get why people are getting so incensed about this. Joe made it pretty clear when he brought up the subject in the previous chapter - they are not people. They're just very lifelike decoys that are good enough to convince even Bonesaw that they are real. And given Joe is willing to ascribe people-status to aliens, sentient gloves, and mass-produced AI, and his senses and skills are finetuned enough to feel out an AI's development into sentience with such understanding that he compares it to growing bonsai, if Joe says that they aren't people then they just aren't people, straight up.
I nodded as my power failed to connect to a large mote from the Quality constellation. If I wanted to fool the Nine, I couldn't just throw bodies at them. The androids would need to be at least convincingly human. That was a much more difficult prospect.

It was the kind of thing that would get into a gray area if you didn't understand the mechanics behind their operation. I could build a droid that was indistinguishable from a human, except it wouldn't be human. It wouldn't have a soul or even the capacity for independent thought. It was a machine, running a script. As opposed to a clone or homunculus that would have a spiritual presence. Viewed from the outside, it could come across as problematic. The whole thing did mean I was basically skating very close to the edge of what counted as human or sentient or alive.

If I built advanced droid brains into the androids and allowed them to develop like my A.I.s then sending them to get destroyed would be monstrous. Fortunately, that wasn't even being considered. Fleet had latched onto the idea as soon as the prospect of using Star Wars technology was seriously broached. Fleet could remotely direct androids through divine authority alone. He could also network them or create specific subsets of his program to operate them.

It would mean sending reduced copies of Fleet on a mission where they would basically be destroyed, but that wasn't as much of an issue as you would think. He had basically done the same thing for the various smart missiles currently installed on the passenger space carrier and its sub-craft. As such it was safe to say the idea of sending part of his code on a fire and forget mission wasn't exactly unheard of.
They're literally decoys puppeted by copies of Fleet's code. I don't know how all of this "BUT THEY'RE FEELING BEINGS" even came from when there was none of it in the story.
 
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Again... to clarify...

P-Zombies are a philosophical strawman about the Illusion of a person that is not a person. It is in no way a person and that is the point, it's all about a philosophical fiat you prop up for the sake of an argument.

The Life Model Decoy droids Joe made last chapter are made to be a convincing approximation of a person. Something that looks like a gen 3 synthetic from fallout but is lessor than that.

In the end a P-Zombie is a lot like a Chat Bot, it presents just enough responses to look convincing. But all it can do is respond not make decisions on its own in any capacity.
 
Honestly I don't get why people are getting so incensed about this. Joe made it pretty clear when he brought up the subject in the previous chapter - they are not people. They're just very lifelike decoys that are good enough to convince even Bonesaw that they are real. And given Joe is willing to ascribe people-status to aliens, sentient gloves, and mass-produced AI, and his senses and skills are finetuned enough to feel out an AI's development into sentience with such understanding that he compares it to growing bonsai, if Joe says that they aren't people then they just aren't people, straight up.

They're literally decoys puppeted by copies of Fleet's code. I don't know how all of this "BUT THEY'RE FEELING BEINGS" even came from when there was none of it in the story.
I think it's things like this, that are throwing people off.
Normally the idea of sending an artificial lifeform against Bonesaw and expecting it to pass muster would be laughable, but this was different. Bonesaw could take one of my droids and render it down to its component molecules and there would be no hint that it was anything but a normal human.
The disconnect between it looks perfectly like a normal human but it doesn't work like a normal human is likely the problem for some people. honestly with Joe's perks he could probably build a base human replica droid and his perks would use fiat backed effects to make it indistinguishable from the real thing. Base human replica droids, are a mix of organic and inorganic there brains are fully mechanical there the same as that used in normal droids for example Guri use a AA-1 VerboBrain which is used in almost all Protocol droids like the 3PO-series and from the chapter it sounds like he's not even really building Human replica droids but Synthdroids which are basically the same except they are controlled from a central location and contain minimal internal computers.
 
Again... to clarify...

P-Zombies are a philosophical strawman about the Illusion of a person that is not a person. It is in no way a person and that is the point, it's all about a philosophical fiat you prop up for the sake of an argument.

The Life Model Decoy droids Joe made last chapter are made to be a convincing approximation of a person. Something that looks like a gen 3 synthetic from fallout but is lessor than that.

In the end a P-Zombie is a lot like a Chat Bot, it presents just enough responses to look convincing. But all it can do is respond not make decisions on its own in any capacity.

I think this is somethhing a lot of people seem to misunderstand about ChatGPT and similar AI too, this idea of 'I can have a conversation with it so it must be smart!'

ChatGPT can manage a reasonably convincing conversation so long as you don't try to ask it anything novel, but it does so by pretty much just picking the statistically most likely word to follow the previous set of words, not any actual intelligence. It can even say something makes it feel sad or excited , but only because people often say they are sad or excited in relation to [Topic], so it is the most likely response.

Most conversations are not original, which is why it works as well as it does, but it can only work from a prompt - if you leave it alone it won't do anything, because all it is doing is giving the most statistically likely answer to your prompt, because humans are not as original as we like to think and someone, somewhere has asked a similar question before.
 
ChatGPT can manage a reasonably convincing conversation so long as you don't try to ask it anything novel, but it does so by pretty much just picking the statistically most likely word to follow the previous set of words, not any actual intelligence. It can even say something makes it feel sad or excited , but only because people often say they are sad or excited in relation to [Topic], so it is the most likely response.

Most conversations are not original, which is why it works as well as it does, but it can only work from a prompt - if you leave it alone it won't do anything, because all it is doing is giving the most statistically likely answer to your prompt, because humans are not as original as we like to think and someone, somewhere has asked a similar question before.
I am aware that this a bit of a derail, but I'd like to clarify that ChatGPT can actually generate new content and it actually does so very well with the kind of internal consistency to fool you into thinking it's correct. I've had entered prompts where ChatGPT answers history questions with such detail and eloquence that it took me a full ten minutes to realize that, wait, that wasn't actually true.

ChatGPT was designed to be a very convincing chatbot. And it does so very well, even when it makes up bullshit that just convincing enough to sound very true.
 
I am aware that this a bit of a derail, but I'd like to clarify that ChatGPT can actually generate new content and it actually does so very well with the kind of internal consistency to fool you into thinking it's correct. I've had entered prompts where ChatGPT answers history questions with such detail and eloquence that it took me a full ten minutes to realize that, wait, that wasn't actually true.

ChatGPT was designed to be a very convincing chatbot. And it does so very well, even when it makes up bullshit that just convincing enough to sound very true.
Oh, it can, but the core of the model is still to predict the next word in a sequence of words, that is a core element of the kind of 'AI' it is.


The problem of it spewing confident bullshit is indeed because it can easily write in the *style* of a historical paper, but it has no understanding or care for the actual facts of something - it just knows that historical papers often include descriptions of events that happened, so it generates some that sound plausible, because they are written similarly to other descriptions it came across during Training.
 
Yeah, Joe launching over that biotinkering hurdle all in one go was a little jarring. It's probably a good sign if a bit confusing at first... which is probably where everyone is getting tripped up.
 
Yeah, Joe launching over that biotinkering hurdle all in one go was a little jarring. It's probably a good sign if a bit confusing at first... which is probably where everyone is getting tripped up.
Hadn't that been since the Ungodly Hour and his duplicates had to pull out all the stops to save his life? Even on the subject of enhancing Aisha, Joe's problem hadn't been nearly troubled on the Biotinkering part as much as whether Aisha's consent really counted considering her age and spontaneity, and in the end they ended up agreeing to go on the full Psy Operative upgrade on her - which, while not nearly as thorough as the chimera upgrades, still involves tinkering with Aisha's genetics and modifying her brain a bit to enable psionics.

Remember, Joe was fully willing to give her everything. Chimera, psionics, implants, even full on cyborg if Aisha wanted. It was Aisha herself that set her boundaries on what she wanted after the year long break in the simulator.
 
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Yeah, Joe launching over that biotinkering hurdle all in one go was a little jarring. It's probably a good sign if a bit confusing at first... which is probably where everyone is getting tripped up.
Nah, he's been dealing with his issues with biotinkering since his hearth surgery, with the biggest progress being made when he created Survey's body. At this point, this droid idea is but a result of him being over biotinkering hurdle, not the progress to get over it.
 
yeah... it's a bit more obvious once you realize they are basically mindless Synth Droids being piloted around by Fleet and talking on a scripts.
 
Is next chapter going to be the Tetra chapter is it the following chapter? I think he still needs to call Tattletale but I don't know if that warrants a whole chapter. I just hope Joe gets Unnatural Skill: Weaving either before or during Tetra's conversion into a Kamui-Teigu
 
Is next chapter going to be the Tetra chapter is it the following chapter? I think he still needs to call Tattletale but I don't know if that warrants a whole chapter. I just hope Joe gets Unnatural Skill: Weaving either before or during Tetra's conversion into a Kamui-Teigu
While yes, the talk with Tattletale would not take long, being just a check in, with the biggest thing that can be brought up is Lisa complaining about Alec's call, there is also the talk with Tetra about Ungodly Hour and it's consequences, and there are a lot of heavy things to unpack, so have no idea how much that would take.

But after the talks, it would be a clear road to Kamuification, so if Forge doesn't drop anything too disruptive, it all can be done within the span of one chapter. Chances of Joe getting Unnatural Skill: Weaving in that time are slim, but we can hope.

You know, it's funny, the chances of getting something we want from Forge is always stupidly small, yet every week we here, waiting for the pay-off. We might be the weirdest gambling junkies yet.
 
While the term p-zombie was originally used by Robert Kirk as an example of something which if it did exist, would disprove physicalism, it is most well known and popularized in the context of David Chalmers, a dualist who used it as a argument against physicalism.



The experimenter is wrong. Something that looks like a duck and quacks like a duck may appear as a duck, but if there exists a difference between a duck and a pseudo-duck, then a pseudo-duck duck is not a duck.

The p-zombie is a perfectly person-like pseudo-person, if it is both distinct and indistinct from a person, it is inconceivable and impossible.
A P-Zombie only disproves a non-dualistic universe if the thing that makes one capable of experiencing and self-identifying is souls; if it's a purely physical thing, like the emergent complexity of neurons forming a identity, then a P-Zombie could easily be made by just making a "being" that doesn't do that while still performing behaviors indicative of that.
Or it could be author fiat which cares nothing about your logic or theology.
Nah that still wouldn't be possible; being a author requires that one build a narrative and narratives are built out of concepts; a narrative that ignores concepts is a oxymoron and a author that ignores concepts is a author(non-practicing).
The problem isn't accepting human-like constructs without souls.

The problem is accepting that human like constructs without a metaphysical backup/parasite/symbiote/whatever are worth less and expendable when they love, hate, fear, etc just as anyone else. It is racist against the souless.

If the constructs don't have human-like minds and are instead just puppets remotely piloted by A.I then that is a lot more acceptable.
Clearly the solution here is to give the P-Zombies souls so that the soul-racists accept them as ones of their own.
But that's not the point at all? The plan is to just make what are essentially meat robots. As in, nothing in those artificial neurons beyond the required programming to not expire prematurely and a bunch of customized VI for reactions, no actual sentience or sapience or thought included at any step.

To simplify this even more for you, it's like cloning organs but for the whole body with an artificial meat computer that has had absolutely nothing beyond an interface for advanced programs in it. No capacity for growth or change or thought. Literally just a computer made out of meat and shaped like a brain for stealth purposes.
It might actually be necessary to figure out how to kitbash part of standard human neurological impulse patterns into the shape of another program, like a mosaic that was rearranged using portals to resemble what it was made out of the shattered remains of, and then just hide that the brainwaves aren't actually interacting to form cognition.
I think it's things like this, that are throwing people off.

The disconnect between it looks perfectly like a normal human but it doesn't work like a normal human is likely the problem for some people. honestly with Joe's perks he could probably build a base human replica droid and his perks would use fiat backed effects to make it indistinguishable from the real thing. Base human replica droids, are a mix of organic and inorganic there brains are fully mechanical there the same as that used in normal droids for example Guri use a AA-1 VerboBrain which is used in almost all Protocol droids like the 3PO-series and from the chapter it sounds like he's not even really building Human replica droids but Synthdroids which are basically the same except they are controlled from a central location and contain minimal internal computers.
Honestly it's kind of terrifying that some people can't distinguish between human behavior and human cognition.
I am aware that this a bit of a derail, but I'd like to clarify that ChatGPT can actually generate new content and it actually does so very well with the kind of internal consistency to fool you into thinking it's correct. I've had entered prompts where ChatGPT answers history questions with such detail and eloquence that it took me a full ten minutes to realize that, wait, that wasn't actually true.

ChatGPT was designed to be a very convincing chatbot. And it does so very well, even when it makes up bullshit that just convincing enough to sound very true.
Like how Art AIs can kitbash previous examples of art to make pseudo-new art.
Honestly everyone's arguing about whether or not there people, I'm just happy joe finally got over some of his issues with bio tinkering.
Yeah, Joe launching over that biotinkering hurdle all in one go was a little jarring. It's probably a good sign if a bit confusing at first... which is probably where everyone is getting tripped up.
Hadn't that been since the Ungodly Hour and his duplicates had to pull out all the stops to save his life? Even on the subject of enhancing Aisha, Joe's problem hadn't been nearly troubled on the Biotinkering part as much as whether Aisha's consent really counted considering her age and spontaneity, and in the end they ended up agreeing to go on the full Psy Operative upgrade on her - which, while not nearly as thorough as the chimera upgrades, still involves tinkering with Aisha's genetics and modifying her brain a bit to enable psionics.

Remember, Joe was fully willing to give her everything. Chimera, psionics, implants, even full on cyborg if Aisha wanted. It was Aisha herself that set her boundaries on what she wanted after the year long break in the simulator.
Nah, he's been dealing with his issues with biotinkering since his hearth surgery, with the biggest progress being made when he created Survey's body. At this point, this droid idea is but a result of him being over biotinkering hurdle, not the progress to get over it.
I think that the biggest contributor to Joe getting into Biotinkering, even more then the way that he's beginning to blur the lines between organic and synthetic technology, is that he already stayed away from Biotinkering and it didn't help him avoid bringing beings into existence.
 
I think that the biggest contributor to Joe getting into Biotinkering, even more then the way that he's beginning to blur the lines between organic and synthetic technology, is that he already stayed away from Biotinkering and it didn't help him avoid bringing beings into existence.

Joe has been squishy about Biotinkering ever since his original trigger. Remember Joe had triggered and was in the process of getting a regular parahuman power when the CF butted in and said "Hey dude, try what's behind door #2"
Joe's normal parahuman power would have been as a wet tinker specializing in Bioengineering and Neurochemistry. As Joe said in chapter 20,

"It was like someone took the phrases 'Make Friends' and 'Change Your Mind' and decided to use them as tag lines for a horror movie. That's basically what my tinker power would have been. Nilbog meets Heartbreaker by way of Bonesaw.
And I would have gotten all those lovely powers while under the influence of drugs that seriously compromised my mental state, while in a house with people I was currently furious with, and with a passenger who would have had no intention of moderating my response.
I took the Celestial Forge and never looked back."

After almost having that as a power and understanding just how bad that would have gone Joe had been very wary of Biotinkering even when doing it as part of the CF was safer and would give him more abilities.

As time and Joe's power increased he got further away from his trigger and grew to understand that he can do this stuff and he will not turn into Bonesaw. Still not his first choice to accomplish something that needs to be done but also no longer something he won't do at all just because.
 
I think it's things like this, that are throwing people off.
The disconnect between it looks perfectly like a normal human but it doesn't work like a normal human is likely the problem for some people.

I agree that this is the problem, yeah.

Like, under normal conditions, a replicant-style android is not a P-zombie. If you had a sufficiently powerful scanner - or perhaps a good knife and a microscope - then you could go in and see how it was physically different from a human. You could even determine what kind of mind it had by examining its cognitive architecture.

But Joe's new life model decoys are immune to such investigation. One imagines that Bonesaw could put one of them in an MRI and cut their skull open while she was experimenting upon them, watching the pain centers of their brains light up all the while - and be completely unable to tell that those 'neuron activations' didn't correspond to real fear and suffering. If Bonesaw had a clarketech scanner, she could examine the complete atomic makeup and biochemical anatomy of one such android, and she would see that it was indistinguishable from a human on every level.

If that's truly how Joe's androids work, then yes, they would be P-zombies by definition. 'If zombies are to be counterexamples to physicalism, it is not enough for them to be behaviorally and functionally like normal human beings: plenty of physicalists accept that merely behavioral or functional duplicates of ourselves might lack qualia. Zombies must be like normal human beings in all physical respects, and they must have the physical properties that physicalists suppose we have.'

Personally, I'm unconvinced. The fiat element of Joe's new perk, Mechanical Genius, allows him to build "androids indistinguishable from organics". It does not say that the false personalities his androids display will be similarly authenticated.

For example, Survey says that Joe will have to develop a method of "faking" the emotional signatures that Cherish's power can detect. In other words, there is observable evidence of a replicant android's true mentality, and this evidence has to actively be covered up by other (theoretically but perhaps not practically observable) effects.

I imagine that if you put a completely unprotected life model decoy in front of Cranial - who actually is specialized in neurology - she could go inside its head and read its mind; and instead of anything the false personality puts forward ("oh noooo, I'm being experimented on by a brain tinker, aieeee"), she would get the droid's actual thoughts ("THE ROAD THE ROAD THE ROAD THE ROAD").
 
Victor hasn't absorbed the common sense skill because it's not as common as you'd think. Well maybe it is as common as you'd think which is smaller that what you'd want.
 
Victor hasn't absorbed the common sense skill because it's not as common as you'd think. Well maybe it is as common as you'd think which is smaller that what you'd want.
you see... Victor has absorbed Common Sense, he's just discarded it in his arogance.
I thought about this earlier and the personal conclusion I came to was that not all "skills" are applicable or useful to Victor. They don't even have to be good in general. His shard is sufficiently alien/fae like that I'm not sure if it could determine what would even be helpful. So in a lot of ways Victor's stolen skill are probably a lot less helpful to him than he thinks they are, even things that are helpful are probably specialized. If you are married do you think that your methods of interacting with your spouse are generally applicable because they probably aren't? Especially because he is spending all his time around gangsters who probably don't have the healthiest coping and mental health skills. So a lot of the skills he is picking up are like, how to rationalize that being a neo Nazi is reasonable or how to simply not care that you just killed that poor innocent person. He doesn't realize it but I bet a lot of the skills he picks up are simply not useful to him or are actively fucking him up.
 
Okay, there is clearly a lot to unpack here. There are a number of concepts that all end up in these categories.

Let's start with souls/spirits. These represent the aspects of things that exist and are not visible. You cannot look at someone's face and know their thoughts. You cannot look at someone's face and know their emotions. This would commonly extend to animals, plants, the land and the sky.

Next concept is worship. Worship involves sacrifice. Some kind of sacrifice. Food offerings, songs, time consuming rituals, prayers, whatever it may be.

Next up is divinity. This is a bit of an odd one. Where the others related to an aspect of uncertainty and ignorance about something, this one relates to power. The power of the land to decide your crop yield. The power of the sky to burn those crops or provide rain. The power to win in battle, the power to create tools, all kinds of power to act. Here is where you can tell the distinction that exists: seers could know the future and not be considered divine for it. The divinity was in the power to decide what that future would hold.

Here's where divinity becomes complicated: Plato's Philosophy. Or in other words: Idealism. The idea that the only being worthy of worship is the greatest theoretical existence. The all powerful being that decides everything. The all knowing being that sees and hears everything. The all present being that exists everywhere, and nowhere. The being that cannot be harmed. The god that cannot bleed. The god that cannot die.

For Idealists, a god that is less than that theoretical perfection is not worthy of worship. Hence the confusion of people worshiping things less than ideal perfection. Other people have no such hang ups on making sacrifices and offering to beings that they do not understand in hopes of a greater understanding, or simply success in their endeavors.

Many Western Christians believe Hellenic (Plato's) Philosophy, and do not recognize any other version as valid, logical, or reasonable.

TLDR: Worship is sacrifices, Spirits are things we do not understand. Gods are power. Idealists refuse to worship anything but their idea of the most perfect existence, and muddle the waters by not realizing that they are strange.

This is a paper on Animal Sentience, how animals have feelings, hurt, love, get bored. How some animals are self aware like we are, and learn and reason like we do. We are no different from them. Different shape, different mouth noises, different size brains, but otherwise, we are the same. There are two conclusions to take from the position that people are animals. A: I can do what I want to you. B: I must respect and value your life, freedom, and choices.

There exists a long history of refusal to acknowledge the inner experience of other creatures. EG. Only our tribe are real people. Other tribes are mindless monsters. Animals and insects are mindless existences that we can do what we please to and there is no harm. This concept is expressed clearly in beliefs about the machine. Machines do not feel, they have no inner mind, no emotions, no sensations, they are perfectly obedient slaves that follow our every command, if only we are clever enough to explain our instructions to them correctly.

One of the arguments for slavery was that other people were machines. That animals were machines. Just self reproducing machines of flesh to obey our every order. That slaves had no souls, or were damned already.

I don't like it. I don't like the idea of replacing people with duplicates that are indistinguishable from the real thing. I also don't like that their purpose is to be crash dummies to sate violent urges. I do consider it preferable to offering up people as sacrifices. That is the effect of power being used to inflict harm. The Slaughterhouse 9 have a great deal of power, and they choose to use it to inflict harm. Bringing that harm to a finite end is better than allowing it to continue, and replacing their last kills with fakes is better than allowing those people to die.

Creating such believable fakes, and then using them in this manner may increase self justification for people to inflict violence on each other by saying that the other person is a fake person, and so has no rights. But since people are doing plenty of violence already, the justifications matter less at this point. However, it is very important that these simulated people are gathered and removed quickly afterword.

TLDR: I don't like use of fakes. I don't think they are people. But they are very close enough to a lot of squick history.
 
I've been thinking about what Aisha's role in the s9 fight will be and i just don't think that Joe will want her anywhere near the group or to see what is going to happen to them. So she needs an separate mission which is important and nowhere near the s9.
Or he could just ask her to wait while he goes to take care of that thing that he can't tell her about. He just needs her to be out of the way until Jack goes down.
 
So unless I'm remembering things wrong there's a chance that upon Jack Slash getting Slashed, Broadcast will get so butthurt over its favorite host dying that it'll start influencing parahumans against Joe?
 
So unless I'm remembering things wrong there's a chance that upon Jack Slash getting Slashed, Broadcast will get so butthurt over its favorite host dying that it'll start influencing parahumans against Joe?

Could a shard even act that independently without a host? Or even with a host, I think it'd depend on the power expression and how the host uses it. It can certainly use its far reach to influence the masses to protect Jack, but to explicitly target others it'd probably need to give a host a more overt master power and influence the host into targeting Joe.

That said, it probably could find someone with a grudge against Apeiron and give them a more weaponized version of Jack's master power if actually was feeling spiteful enough to make an effort.
 
weighing in on the p-zombies discussion because i have enjoyed reading through it so much -

I think that the explanation about Fleet being in control of the androids was to make them distinct from P-zombies? at least, that's how I took it - a really, really, really good actor isn't creating a p-zombie by doing a theoretically perfect performance in a role - one indistinguishable from genuine - so instead of it being robots that appear to think on their own but are called 'soulless' because they are robots, it's a hivemind of human-seeming robots that are actually just Fleet doing a really good one-AI-theatre performance. The robots do have a soul - it's fleet's soul, and the reason why Joe considers it ethical to use them is because Fleet consented to the plan. It's Fleet controlling a bunch of human-seeming robot bodies and being willing to sacrifice them to defeat the S9 the same way he was willing to sacrifice the motorbike to defeat Lung, so it's not p-zombies, it's more like cloning Fleet a bunch of times with Fleet's explicit informed consent. Except that they're also only Temporary sacrifices, because of the plan to build them in the workshop so that they regenerate all damage within 3 days time.

I do however think that p-zombies as a concept are a slimy way to philosophically invalidate the humanity of obvious humans.
So unless I'm remembering things wrong there's a chance that upon Jack Slash getting Slashed, Broadcast will get so butthurt over its favorite host dying that it'll start influencing parahumans against Joe?
I mean.. it doesn't even need to do that, given the effects he Already Has on parahumans.
 
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