Foxy Boxes
[Verified Box]
- Location
- England
That's because Christianity has a higher standard (one of the strictest, in fact) for what counts as worship, stemming from it's abrahamic origins.
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Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)
- Thread starter LordRoustabout
- Start date
- Location
- Philippines
This is actually a very valid point. Christianity with its strict customs, requirements, and ceremonies has a very different style of worship especially compared to polytheistic and/or animistic religions like Greek, Buddhism, or Shintoism. All of which Joe's divinities come from in particular. Of course, all of these religions also have their own more stricter sects, and being born or part of any such sect or religious group could mean having a lifestyle surrounding worship, but as far as the common person goes the standard is relatively lax compared to Christian standards, and there isn't nearly as much stigma to not participating in religious practices of those religions compared to Christianity. In Shintoism, for example, ringing a bell, clapping, and staying silent for a minute already counts as a prayer.
But regardless, if I recall correctly the WoG on what counts as worship to Joe has to involve intentionally praying to Apeiron in a position of divinity, so it can't come by as an accident like "Oops, apparently you count as a worshipper." There has to be knowing intent involved.
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The bolded part is the important bits that I argue for the purpose of the debate, that's what you should argue against if you don't agree, nothing else matter in my stance
A perfect exemple is Joe's libation ability. can he do it? yes. does it automatically happen just because he knows they exist? no. having the ability to do libation doesn't mean that he automatically libate every single higher being even though he knows for a fact it will work. Ergo knowledge of the actual for sure existence of a god is not equal to worship, it can't happen by accident and I can't see Aisha worshipping Joe in a constant continues fashion or in a singular event or ritual by accident. Same with Missy, in the context of counting for the perk AS OF THE CURRENT UPDATE, THINGS MAY CHANGE
Yeah that's what I figured which is why I argued like I did
I kind of agree but it's part of a bigger debate, my problem is specifically with the claim that knowing that someone or something is divine automatically counts as worshiping for the purpose of the perk, no matter what religion or god you belive actually exist, that knowledge or certainty is not equal to worship. Worship is at minimum something you consciously have to decide to do and/or do a specific action or ritual by accident or not that qualifies as worship for that divinity.
A perfect exemple is Joe's libation ability. can he do it? yes. does it automatically happen just because he knows they exist? no. having the ability to do libation doesn't mean that he automatically libate every single higher being even though he knows for a fact it will work. Ergo knowledge of the actual for sure existence of a god is not equal to worship, it can't happen by accident and I can't see Aisha worshipping Joe in a constant continues fashion or in a singular event or ritual by accident. Same with Missy, in the context of counting for the perk AS OF THE CURRENT UPDATE, THINGS MAY CHANGE
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AntaeusTheGiant
Child of Gaea
- Location
- Lawrence, KS
Well, this would be why some of us are hoping LordR eventually plays Darksider, despite how grim the game is, as it would give access to the 1200 pt. perk "Maker". Being able to create star systems with intelligent life would probably help with that.
As for what is still available at the moment, the freebies that come with "Chosen of Death" give him another avenue to divinity besides his current fortune energy one. Let me just quote them here:
And that may be the longest perk description in the forge, esp. for a freebie.
And then, All Spark Chosen just straight up says:
So, does "you are now Jesus-Buddha" count as being a god? LordR has been known to take these perk descriptions rather literally.. as evident from the way Jozef is now invulnerable for reals.
And then there is good old "Glory to.. me" which has already been discussed.
Foxy Boxes
[Verified Box]
- Location
- England
No no, it doesn't automatically qualify as worship, it qualifies any worship that happens as worship of him as a god.
Yeah that I agree with 100%
Yeah but since nothing is it's as close as anything else.
Does acknowledgement of someone as a god count as worship? Like it's hard to worship something without considering it a god so does considering something a god count as worship?
- Location
- Philippines
Probably not. Remember, the only reason why that durability Perk was so effective was that it only gave durability for a pretty high point cost, so LordRoustabout had to be more creative in its interpretation. All-Spark Chosen already has two other big effects - namely the creation of Sparks and the CHA/WIS boost - that it's unlikely that LordRoustabout will take the Jesus-Buddha part literally.
On that note though, it's also worth remembering the Maddest Science YET! is the entire techbase of a creation goddess and is basically Simple Scientific Solution with all the breaks removed, so it's possible that in practice it turns him into a creation god.
Foxy Boxes
[Verified Box]
- Location
- England
Tell that to celebrity cults
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- Location
- Germany
No. Piggot isn't worshiping Apeiron by any definition of the term. She's using him as a scapegoat for her issues and hates him for bringing up all of her hang ups while hitting her trauma button. If blaming someone for everything wrong in the world makes you a god, the Jews would be divine beings since millenia ago.
As I've said before: pagan religions generally had little issue acknowledging the existence of other gods. Both Rome and Ancient Mesopotamia are good examples. But just because you acknowledge they exist, doesn't mean you worship them. The Assyrians put Marduk, god of Babylon on trial for Christ's sake! So no, thinking someone is divine doesn't mean you worship them!
Foxy Boxes
[Verified Box]
- Location
- England
That's literally Angra Mainyu.
- Location
- Philippines
It's worth remembering though that Fate Angra Mainyu was literally the result of ritualized deification/human sacrifice. There's nothing unintentional or accidental about that - it's just that the form of worship and deification was the complete opposite of what most call "worshipping".
In my opinion she would be that smiling but annoyed kind of drunk, that just says her thoughts without filter about her family and how each and every single one of them are just a bunch of children having tantrums.
Well, Lord has the tendency to try to explore every facet of perk, no matter if it is written in perk itself or not (that how we got Alma, Force sensibility, the Tau-Wave, and other benefits that were not explicitly stated to be part of perk, but still here), so while there's no way "All Spark Chosen" would lead to Joe becoming god, it clearly will create another connection to the divine (All Spark, and possibly Primus) somewhat similar to blessings. Yes, that connection probably will not bring any benefits beyond what was described in the perk, but it will be there. Might have some unexpected synergy with other perks, like libation or something else. Most definitely will affect "Matrix of Leadership" perk.
Fun fact: in old-ish WoG Lord said that he will do whatever it takes to make it so that when Joe gets "Matrix of Leadership" perk, the song will start playing in the background. Yes, the song. That alone makes Matrix the most anticipated perk for me.
You think that those don't consider them to be gods?Tell that to celebrity cults
Well given that the Nazies venerated success and successful traits both genetic and cultural while claiming that the jewish people dominated the banking industry...Like I'm not saying that they knew that they were doing it or something crazy like that but it's where the ideology they upheld, or upheld the pretense of, led to.
I don't think that I'd call that behavior indicative of thinking that something was divine.
I think that ascribing The Brookton Bay Incident to Joe's actions could be called ritualized deification/human sacrifice.
Drunk Ro-Bots! Drunk Ro-Bots! Drunk Ro-Bots!
- Location
- Germany
THEY OUTRIGHT ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THOSE BEINGS ARE GODS! HOW, ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH, DOES THAT NOT INDICATE THAT THOSE BEINGS ARE DIVINE!? THEY OUTRIGHT SAY IT! THAT IS NO INDICATION, THAT IS A STATEMENT!
By what chain of logic does "these beings are gods, but they aren't our gods, hence we don't worship them" translate to "those beings aren't divine"? Just, how?
- Location
- Philippines
...there's nothing ritualized or planned about Brockton Bay's response to Apeiron and that's the entire point of why Brockton PRT is such a laughingstock internationally. Because it's a mess on every level. And unless the burning paperwork that says Apeiron is a Master Thinker planning to wreck the PRT also coincidentally says that "Apeiron is a god" without somehow tripping up more false Master flags, I don't know how divinity ever comes from any of that.
Oh sure that's a requirement for worship of a god but it's not worship itself. acknowledgment of a god is like having a car, worship is actually actively using said car to drive. To actually drive a car you need to have a car to drive but just because you have a car doesn't mean you use it. And it doesn't matter how good of a driver you are if you don't have a car to use.
Being good at a worship doesn't matter if you don't have a god to worship, and acknowledging a god as existing is no different from an atheist if you don't worship it in terms of impact on your life and how you live. Same with a car, the worlds best driver without access to a car is no different from the guy who cant drive but has the fastest car in the world in terms of impact on their life.
Oh sure a guy that acknowledges (as in knows they exist) a god that he doesn't worship are different from an atheist in some way but if you don't know what you're doing you might get smitten for doing something wrong. The same way a person that cant drive but owns a fast car probably shouldn't drive it for their own safety.
And just because you don't own a car and can't drive one doesn't mean they aren't both a danger or boon to you...as long as cars exist of course...
edit: Tldr: cars and driving skill is not the same but both is needed to get the most out of cars. The same with acknowledgment of a god and worship is not the same but is working together to produce the best and safest result
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I'm tempted to say something about how a lot of primitive cultural groups has the belief that people who weren't their people weren't people but I'll try to be serious with you: they were probably just playing lip-service instead of actually thinking that those other peoples gods could actually do god stuff like smiting them. Like I can call my coffee machine a god but I'm clearly not going to mean it unless it starts acting like it.
To think that pseudo-politicians and bureaucrats like the PRT haven't thrown enough people under the buss to save their own hides that it isn't a tradition/ritual by now is hopelessly optimistic.
Edit: like it's all there; it's ritualized, they need to ascribe deific capabilities to people to clear a whole lot of names at once, and good luck finding a name other then "human sacrifice" for it.
This seems more like opinion then...Whatever the alternative to that would be but I'm willing to put that aside for now to ask more questions: would ascribing macro-scale phenomena, like lightning or volcanism and the like, to someone count as worship?
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- Location
- Earth
It's worth noting Angra Mainyu isn't and never was a God (or even the Persian god of darkness Angra Mainyu) while the ritualistic sacrifice was enough for him to qualify as a heroic spirit it didn't make him divine. As a heroic spirit born from his peoples wish that he be All the World's Evil that wish was engraved on to his soul. That wish interacted with the wish-granting function of the Greater Grail this corrupted the greater Grail and turn Angra Mainyu into a demon. (It's not clear if becoming a demon made him no longer a heroic spirit there are demons who are also heroic spirits It doesn't help that demon is a very broad category in Fate so broad in fact that all vampires count as demons and vampire Is also very broad for example medusa and her sisters are classified as vampires.) Even if he had been successfully born into the world by the greater grail he wouldn't have been a god but an incarnation of all the world's evil and embodiment of the third true magic. (which is actually worse as most of a gods power comes from worship and are linked to Gaia.)
Gods in Fate have a very strict definition.
Angra Mainyu was never reborn as a divine spirit. (While a divine spirit by the name of Angra Mainyu does exist him being the Persian god of darkness, the Angra Mainyu we meet in fate stay night is not that god.)https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Divine_Spirit said:
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Seriously we need to define what the words divine and worship means for this debate so we're all on the same page and argue from the same basis, because them doing that makes complete sense to me from a polytheistic perspective, Both the Babylonians and Assyrians have gods they where the cultures where fighting which means that the gods where too. The winning sides gods where stronger divines thus they got to put the other side to trial when they won. The same way the world put germany the country on trial after they lost each world war.
Just because germany lost didn't mean they stopped being a country and just because Marduck was put on trial he stopped being a god in the eyes of the people that did it.
Straight facts
- Location
- Germany
The Ancient Mesopotamians believed that the entire world was full of gods, and that events in the human world mirrored that in the heavenly one. So if a city beats another city, that's because your god beat theirs. And of course you're going to be respectful of them while on their turf. So when one city beats another city, their god obviously did something, namely beat up the other god.
But that doesn't mean that they didn't think them gods. They did. They just weren't their gods.
The whole Roman thought of the peace with the gods, forgot the Latin name for that, was that basically all gods were real and had to be appeased. So long as you didn't deny the existence of other gods, you could worship as you please.
Just because this mindset is alien to you, doesn't mean that it didn't make perfect sense for them.
The point being: Acknowledging someone as divine doesn't mean you worship them. Even thinking of them as gods doesn't mean you worship them. Blaming someone for all the ills they experience doesn't make them a god either.
So no, there is currently no character worshiping Joe as a god. The closest we have are the skulls who provide him with mantra, but they still don't think of him as a god, merely a Archmagos. An odd Archmagos who has made incredible achievements (non-Warp FTL, Mantra) but a mere human nevertheless.
bro you're thinking way to much like an atheist instead of someone for whom gods are a fact of life, how can you claim to understand anything about this if you can't even leave your 21 century worldview behind 😂
edit: you're trying to argue that pure math doesn't make sense with social science principles when you haven't even understood what addition is as a concept
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That mindset isn't alien to me; I'm completely able to imagine the mental state of insane people; what that mindset is to me is a seeming mistranslation.