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Advice and Trust [NGE]

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Crazael said:
I prefer to keep them separate. Fanon can be incredibly toxic to characters and ideas that are quite interesting and enjoyable from canon.
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akrasiel23 said:
I prefer to write fanfics that could be plausible within the universe and don't deviate from characterization, setting or themathic without reason or proper development.
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Agreed. I often hear the argument, "Why would I want to stay in character anyway? If you want to read the canon, read the canon." Well, this is exactly why. If you intentionally deviate from character to make a point, that's one thing. At best, that can be called deconstruction, which is what NGE was in the first place. If you mischaracterize a character or characters because of your own personal bias, however, or a misunderstanding of the character, then you're only demonstrating that you didn't understand the canon in the first place.

Of course, Sturgeon's Law will apply. You can't expect everyone to be both knowledgable and insightful about the canon work AND an imaginative writer with experience and a lot of free time. :D

Crazael said:
It's still fanon. It can be very good fanon, but it's still fanon. I have no problem with preferring it, but I prefer to not allow fanon to replace canon.
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Fanon can fix some of the unavoidable issues with canon, such as Executive Meddling or a really long run that falls into the status quo. (Guess who I'm talking about) Or lack of special effects budget and an author who himself doesn't seem to know what he is trying to say. :D

On the @Strypgia post, which I won't quote:

The drunk line is hilarious. However, I like the possibility of Misato seeing how vulnerable Rei is right now, or Rei getting inside her head. Rei's vision has foreshadowed how bad it's going to get when she reveals the truth, and Misato's reaction is likely to be the worst.
 
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AlanMidnight said:
Fanon can fix some of the unavoidable issues with canon, such as Executive Meddling or a really long run that falls into the status quo. (Guess who I'm talking about) Or lack of special effects budget and an author who himself doesn't seem to know what he is trying to say.
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I'm not saying fanon can't make a story better, just that I prefer to not allow it to replace canon. It can fill in gaps and allow canon to make more sense, but it shouldn't be allowed to become more important. Otherwise, you might as well just make it a new story of your own.
 
For me fanfiction is primarily a way to explore scenarios in and around the Evangelion universe and maybe have a little bit of fun with the characters and the canon or also to see how it could be continued.

I'd never want it to replace the actual canon but for me I like reading and writing it because I can see the what-ifs and so on of it all and see what other people take away from the series that I might have overlooked at one point. Certain fics have gotten me to look at characters or situations in completely different ways.

I will admit though, I do feel a bit like I'm in a minority of people in this thread though who does absolutely adore the original canon of Evangelion and the Rebuilds as well. :(
 
Crazael said:
I'm not saying fanon can't make a story better, just that I prefer to not allow it to replace canon. It can fill in gaps and allow canon to make more sense, but it shouldn't be allowed to become more important. Otherwise, you might as well just make it a new story of your own.
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I disagree. "Canon" is purely arbitrary as in the end it's all fictional. There can't be a more "real" fictional than others. Canon is important as the common discussion basis in debate, so that everyone lower what's talked about. And if I search for fanfic of a work it should hence fit in with that work. However canon is still fundamentally arbitrary and hence can and even should be bent if necessary. Too OOC Characters will make me not want to read a fic but it's always an option to change canon. You just need to know how to do it intelligently.
 
jcmoorehead said:
I will admit though, I do feel a bit like I'm in a minority of people in this thread though who does absolutely adore the original canon of Evangelion and the Rebuilds as well. :(
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You're not alone in that the original will always remain one of my favorite anime series; however, I don't care much for Rebuild. ;)

That said, if the story and characters are sufficiently compelling (such as in Jackie's The Curious Case of Rei Ikari), I'm very much willing to overlook it. ;)
 
On a side note, and I'm not sure if it was covered in this thread but Anno did give an interview recently where he said he'd like Evangelion to become a cultural cornerstone in the same way Gundam is and would be interested to see other directors helm their own versions and give their interpretations on it.

So in a way I suppose that gives us free reign :p
 
AlanMidnight said:
The drunk line is hilarious. However, I like the possibility of Misato seeing how vulnerable Rei is right now, or Rei getting inside her head. Rei's vision has foreshadowed how bad it's going to get when she reveals the truth, and Misato's reaction is likely to be the worst.
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Oh, I've got a good bit of that scene already planned out, and yes, it's going to be a punch. One of the two beta's who I described it to called it 'brutal'. :)

It's not going to be an easy conversation for any of them. Misato has dedicated her life to one purpose: KILL THE ANGELS. To get revenge for her family. Now, on top of finding out Commander Ikari and SEELE were complicit in Dr. Katsuragi's death, she's going to find out she's had not just one, but two Angels at her dinner table?

She's not going to be happy about that.
 
Muphrid said:
Wait, wait, back up. Say what?
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Yeah, I really enjoy the Rebuilds as well, I appreciate they aren't the same as the original but they're something that on repeated viewings I've found to get better much in the same way that the original/EoE has and I think that when the last of the four films is released they'll all be better for it.

I can appreciate the issues people have with it, I do agree that I think it's handling of the characters is a bit poor in places, especially with regards to Asuka/Mari but I still really enjoy them. I think the whole jump from 2.22 to 3.33 was incredibly jarring but I still liked 3.33 because it went off in such a different direction to the original.

That said, I also play video games with an inverted Y Axis, so what would I know :p
 
Susano said:
I think the idea is that Kensuke cheats on Sayaka with Kyoko. So to speak. After all, there's no relationship between the three, and most certainly not between Sayaka and Kyoko, so that means that Kensuke is cheating on the two girls with each other, right? ;) Or so it could look to Sayaka's father as part of the cover story.
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Correct.

MoroseMobius said:
It's like you can see the very moment their hearts break.

Now that I think about it, if Shinji had had his plugsuit on, the data it records could have shown the exact moment he saw the remains of Unit-02 via his vitals. We can finally pinpoint with perfect accuracy how long it takes for a person's heart to break after they see a horrifically upsetting event.

SCIENCE!
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See this is why I can't design psychology experiments. I would demand larger sample sizes, and repeatability. We would have to break a dozen or so people, several times over so that we can eliminate extraneous variables.

You know what, I think I'll just stick to hardware. I'll sleep better at night and I won't have to worry about being put on trial for crimes against humanity... :)

QUOTE="JohnnyAdroit, post: 7431796, member: 10235"]Both start with attacks by ground forces:
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It looks like they flipped animation. Notice how the window and shutters are reversed, but they license plates are different. Interesting...

Fernandel said:
There's no real point comparing the toxicity of NGE's relationships. Those involving our main characters and those in the backstory are all poisonous to some degree.
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Isn't that toxicity kinda the point?

Fernandel said:
My point is not that Asuka is, like, genuinely a bad person or evil or something equally ridiculous like that. Nah. She's just as broken as all folks in Evangelion are.
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There is a distinction between a cruel person and a cruel act.

Fernandel said:
It's still unethical, cruel, and quite awful.

Girls using their sexuality and shy boys' awkwardness about the topic to bully them, to embarrass them, and to hurt them is not at all uncommon.
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It's basically any power inequality dynamic.

Turing Decidable said:
I'm not entirely sure if the fact that Asuka really did have good intentions (or at least that's the impression I get from when the most pivotal of Asuka's and Shinji's interactions are revisited in the Arael sequence) makes it even worse.
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I would say that in this specific case, it doesn't make the result better or worse for anyone involved, but does make it more tragic.

Turing Decidable said:
Can't slow down if we want to keep ahead of the threadbans nipping at our heels. :o

You know, I'm kind of wondering what Rei would do if Gendo followed through on his threat to separate Shinji and Asuka. Lilith joyride when?
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It would be more humane if he waited until Rei was feeling better. He wouldn't feel a thing.

Oh, idle(evil​) thought. Gendo separates Asuka and Shinji. Rei can't let the mask slip, so she's bawling on the inside. This makes Kaworu cry on the outside. That makes Kaworu... We've been asked not to speculate about painful ways for Gendo to die, but Kaworu is a wreck after the 15th. The woman he has fallen for is every bit the raw open wound that he is, then Gendo went and poured salt on the wound. I get the sense that Gendo won't be smilingconversation would end in screaming.
 
To me, fanfic is a wonderful thing...sometimes. Because as we all know, a good 90% of it is poorly written tripe.

9% is enjoyable but not spectacular.

The remaining 1% however, is truly something special.

Fanfic is good because it produces different interpretations and versions of the source material that are sometimes on par, if not superior (as in A&Ts case) to the original. And to be brutally honest, a good deal of fanfic is vastly more enjoyable than whatever the mainstream literary industry chuggs out these days...
 
grimlock said:
There is a distinction between a cruel person and a cruel act.
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No, there isn't. Because otherwise the word "cruel" loses all meaning when describing people.

A person who commits an act of cruelty is, in fact, cruel.

They may not be a "bad" person. They may not be an "evil" person. They may not be a "monstrous" person.

But a person cannot commit an act of cruelty without being cruel.

I've read far too many tedious arguments and self-serving justifications when it comes to defending oneself from the accusation of cruelty about how those who committed awful hurtful acts are not awful people themselves.

There is a reason why people talk about the "banality of evil".

It's not an argument I accept. Those who commit cruelty of their own free will are cruel. They may not be cruel anymore, but they were.

And that also includes me. I will not accept the excuse from those who have maliciously hurt me that they weren't malicious, and neither will I pretend to not have been a cruel person when thinking about those who I have hurt. Even if I regret it.
 
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Strypgia said:
Oh, I've got a good bit of that scene already planned out, and yes, it's going to be a punch. One of the two beta's who I described it to called it 'brutal'. :)

It's not going to be an easy conversation for any of them. Misato has dedicated her life to one purpose: KILL THE ANGELS. To get revenge for her family. Now, on top of finding out Commander Ikari and SEELE were complicit in Dr. Katsuragi's death, she's going to find out she's had not just one, but two of Angels at her dinner table?

She's not going to be happy about that.
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I wonder what Shinji reaction will be once he hears from Rei what his father's reasoning is for trying to cause Third Impact?
 
Susano said:
That assumes Yui is displeased with Gendo's course of action. Yui is probably the worse part of the couple.
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Wait, really? Huh, Must not have been paying attention while binge-reading. Though I was sorta going with the idea that Yui would be annoyed with Gendo being a real ass to their kid, cuz she seems to have at least some operating form of parental instinct.
 
Appletank said:
Wait, really? Huh, Must not have been paying attention while binge-reading. Though I was sorta going with the idea that Yui would be annoyed with Gendo being a real ass to their kid, cuz she seems to have at least some operating form of parental instinct.
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Susano said:
Well, that's mostly going by canon, but even here in A&T, Yui has her own "scenario". She talked with Shinji about it.
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Appletank said:
Well, the furthest I got with NGE is "Cruel Angel Thesis", so that explains a lot.
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@Susano's partially right. She did have her own scenario, ostensibly to save humanity from SEELE's control, that involved Shinji being traumatized* and the world ending in 3rd Impact.** She did not approve of Gendo abandoning and, further, traumatising Shinji.***
*She had Gendo bring Shinji to watch the Contact Experiment, knowing she was going to die in front of his eyes.
**Basically, she'd give Shinji control of the gestalt of human souls, and let any who wished to leave do so.
**Or if that fails, be a space-monument to humanity.
***She kills Gendo during 3rd Impact. The implication seems to have be she wanted Gendo to raise Shinji to pilot the Eva.
 
Always Late said:
**Basically, she'd give Shinji control of the gestalt of human souls, and let any who wished to leave do so.
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It is possible that was her plan from the beginning, but far from clear. The only outlook we have on her plans is that conversation with Fuyutsuki in the director's cut, and in that she seems to aim for something different altogether (eternal tombstone etc.). Plus, in the actual 3I that happened then, it was Rei-Lilith who gave control to Shinji, not Yui/EVA-01. And Rei had always been Gendo's 3I vessel..

***She kills Gendo during 3rd Impact. The implication seems to have be she wanted Gendo to raise Shinji to pilot the Eva.
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EVA-01 eats him. What that means... it could be part of Shinji's control of instrumentality. It could be Gendo's wish. It could be EVA-01 absorbing Gendo. It could be that EVA-01 is the form the dying Gendo's 'Rei' takes. But I don't think it's punishment from Yui. Before that scene, Yui stands next to the lying (and probably dying) Gendo, and is... calm. Understanding. Not judging.
 
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Susano said:
EVA-01 eats him. What that means... it could be part of Shinji's control of instrumentality. It could be Gendo's wish. It could be EVA-01 absorbing Gendo. It could be that EVA-01 is the form the dying Gendo's 'Rei' takes. But I don't think it's punishment from Yui. Before that scene, Yui stands next to the lying (and probably dying) Gendo, and is... calm. Understanding. Not judging.
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Shinji control: The Eva going berserk and opening its jaws has always been the unit reacting to Shinji's condition. Whether you believe its Yui explicitly taking control every time or not, the pilot is just a catalyst.
Gendo's wish: he got that wish through the very scene you saw before. Being with Yui again.
Unit-01 Absorbing Gendo: Why? Just, why is that necessary? What does that accomplish?
Unit-01 is Rei: 'Rei' is gone. Or at least, she's a part of this mix of her, Adam, and Lilith that controls 3rd Impact. It's Rei's memories, hence the body and affection, but not the Rei-3 Shinji remembers.
Yui and Gendo scene: I think that 'understanding vs. judging' thing might come down to our different personal readings of body language and expressions.
 
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