Sure, he wasn't going to say no, (not after she challenged his manhood, anyway)
Here's the thing that you need to realise up front.

For all that I answer general questions related to legal matters on a regular basis (IANAL, just FYI), I wasn't talking about any sort of legal definition of consent.

I was merely talking about the normal colloquial definition, the one where "consent" means both parties choose to engage in an action out of their own free will without somehow being compelled to do it. "Forced" to me is a synonym of "compelled", asking someone to act or to tolerate an act against their free will or against their better judgment.

Asuka taunting Shinji about his lack of manliness and daring him to kiss her on the day of his mother's death, using her taunts to get his verbal agreement, and then kissing and holding his nose shut until he can no longer breathe properly...

...is actually still compelling him to tolerate an action that he is not at all comfortable with.

It's not an action that'll win a legal case. It doesn't have to be. It's still unethical, cruel, and quite awful.

Girls using their sexuality and shy boys' awkwardness about the topic to bully them, to embarrass them, and to hurt them is not at all uncommon.

My point is not that Asuka is, like, genuinely a bad person or evil or something equally ridiculous like that. Nah. She's just as broken as all folks in Evangelion are.

But I wanted to counteract the idea that one can compare the relationships in NGE and call one "more" or "less" toxic than the other.

In some ways, Kaworu was kinder and in others yet more cruel to Shinji, and so was Asuka. Both relationships in canon were toxic. Comparisons are pointless.

Let's be frank: @Strypgia has written a genuinely compelling (hah, puns!) story, but he chose to begin it at a point where the characters were kinder to each other, still had far less baggage with each other, and changed a few things around, thus allowing their relationship to develop into a far healthier one.

That's fine. I applaud it. But when talking about canon, let's please not whitewash bad behaviour that we see there because we like A&T!Asuka.

And yes, a lot of the conventions of the romantic genre are quite poisonous. But that's a topic for another thread.
 
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I'm not entirely sure if the fact that Asuka really did have good intentions (or at least that's the impression I get from when the most pivotal of Asuka's and Shinji's interactions are revisited in the Arael sequence) makes it even worse.
 
I was merely talking about the normal colloquial definition, the one where "consent" means both parties choose to engage in an action out of their own free will without somehow being compelled to do it.

Well, I would point out that Asuka was acting that way as a defense mechanism. But I am not in any way excusing her behavior or absolving her of the responsibility for her actions. Shinji was similarly responsible for his own behavior in the relationship, but that doesn't make him any worse or any better than Asuka. They both made mistakes.

What I would say is that when Asuka asked Shinji to kiss her, they both had their own reasons for wanting it to happen. Asuka was growing increasingly desperate to make a connection, and Shinji, while experience had taught him to be cautious, definitely wanted to get closer to her, too. It was just too soon, too clumsy, and they were still too afraid. It was after they turned their disappointment on each other that the "consent" ended, and they ended up with something they didn't want. It was pretty much the end of the relationship, after all.

Naturally, if Shinji had called her on the "Walls of Jericho" comment, he would have had to be very careful, since she had explicitly NOT consented, despite the double meaning of the Biblical reference. It shows how childish Asuka is that she would make such a dangerous challenge. But of course she's also thinking of fantasies of a white knight riding up on a white horse to carry her away, without thinking about what that might imply.

I'm not entirely sure if the fact that Asuka really did have good intentions (or at least that's the impression I get from when the most pivotal of Asuka's and Shinji's interactions are revisited in the Arael sequence) makes it even worse.

Exactly. If Asuka was just playing with Shinji's feelings then she can be blamed for being a bitch and Shinji can move on. But they could have made it WORK, but for the want of a nail...

Which is not to say that Rei, or Misato, or Kaworu couldn't have also averted Armageddon, but that wasn't in the cards for them, either.
 
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... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...I know this has been said before but i have to say it again: I'm gone for a few days and i come back to a couple pages that went from "a breakdown of Misato and Asuka's relationship" to "what relationship is more toxic" to "what constitutes to consent". Even for this thread that's odd.
 
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...I know this has been said before but i have to say it again: I'm gone for a few days and i come back to a couple pages that went from "a breakdown of Misato and Asuka's relationship" to "what relationship is more toxic" to "what constitutes to consent". Even for this thread that's odd.
Eh, this thread goes through topics and pages more so than bipolar reactions.

Please note, I'm not trying to joke, this thread goes through things fast.
 
Can't slow down if we want to keep ahead of the threadbans nipping at our heels. :o

You know, I'm kind of wondering what Rei would do if Gendo followed through on his threat to separate Shinji and Asuka. Lilith joyride when?
 
Can't slow down if we want to keep ahead of the threadbans nipping at our heels. :o

You know, I'm kind of wondering what Rei would do if Gendo followed through on his threat to separate Shinji and Asuka. Lilith joyride when?
Unfortunately, nothing at the moment. She's too weak to use any of her angelic powers and she still has to pose in favour of Gendo's plan until the right time. :(
 
On the other hand, trying to replace canon with a fanfic is a completely legitimate practice which I really must advocate in some instances.
I prefer to keep them separate. Fanon can be incredibly toxic to characters and ideas that are quite interesting and enjoyable from canon.
 
I prefer to keep them separate. Fanon can be incredibly toxic to characters and ideas that are quite interesting and enjoyable from canon.
I prefer to write fanfics that could be plausible within the universe and don't deviate from characterization, setting or themathic without reason or proper development.

Like the Aeneid for instance, which is technically a continuation/elsewhere fic of the Iliad of Homer but is still in the style of the original work.
 
*glares*

A fanfic. Not fanfics.

There is a difference, nyan!
It's still fanon. It can be very good fanon, but it's still fanon. I have no problem with preferring it, but I prefer to not allow fanon to replace canon.
I prefer to write fanfics that could be plausible within the universe and don't deviate from characterization, setting or themathic without reason or proper development.

Like the Aeneid for instance, which is technically a continuation/elsewhere fic of the Iliad of Homer but is still in the style of the original work.
And, unless doing something hugely divergent is the point, like taking the Eva cast and dumping them in a fantasy setting instead of a sci-fi(ish) one, that is what I prefer as well.
 
And, unless doing something hugely divergent is the point, like taking the Eva cast and dumping them in a fantasy setting instead of a sci-fi(ish) one, that is what I prefer as well.
The difference between Fantasy and Science Fiction is a matter of semantics more than anything else, so that's really not changing anything.
 
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The difference between Fantasy and Science Fiction is a matter of semantics more than anything else, so that's really not changing anything.
Both are under the umbrella that is Speculative Fiction, but the main difference is that the former highlights the abnormal that could happen in an otherwise normal world and the other makes mundane or plausible what would be abnormal for our current world; there is also the fact that both can be used together as Science Fantasy when you want a bit of scientific method with you dose of magic, which is what NGE has shades of.
 
But we've always stayed on topic. It has been repeated several times hat any discussion about NGE is considered on topic here, in fact.
I might have blanked out on that sometime in this page and the previous one. Then again, DAMCON is a necessity around here when the shift looks like it might take part.
 
I might have blanked out on that sometime in this page and the previous one. Then again, DAMCON is a necessity around here when the shift looks like it might take part.

Indeed. This calls for a preview. It's also Misato's 30th birthday, so of course the scene features her. And the first person to make noises about her being 29 will get a can of Yebisu thrown at their head. Misato is perfectly happy be her own age, now that she's not in any danger of being a Christmas Cake. :p

+++

Ritsuko watched Rei walk slowly ahead of her. The First Child was noticeably slow and stiff. She'd needed another dose of tranquilizers and painkillers on waking this morning. Ritsuko's scans had revealed her AT-Field was a little better, but still ragged and thinned. Rei had twitched and flinched from everyone they'd even come within shouting distance of on their way up from her lab. Ritsuko had done her best to clear the route, but she couldn't make it completely empty.

It had taken them half an hour to reach Misato's office. Rei was sweating heavily. "Too... too many... get me... inside," she said weakly. "Please."

Ritsuko nodded, and opened the door.

Misato looked up from a desk still buried in paperwork, her eyebrows rising further as an even more pale than usual Rei followed her in and took a seat in the corner, sweating. "Rei, you look… not so hot. Ritsuko, what's going on? Is she alright?"

"No, she's not," Ritsuko said, pursing her lips. "She is… I've done as much as I can here, though. She needs lots of rest and quiet, away from people unless she knows them well. Here." She proffered some pages to her friend. "I've included detailed instructions for her treatment, but right now, as an official order as the Chairwoman of Project E and Rei's doctor, you, Major, are hereby ordered to escort the First Child to her residence and see to her disposition for the rest of the day."

Misato's eyebrows couldn't get any higher, so they shifted to mild suspicion. "You're… ordering me to take the rest of the day off, see Rei home, then tuck her in?" she asked, taking the papers. "Usually you ask me if I'm drunk."
 
Indeed. This calls for a preview. It's also Misato's 30th birthday, so of course the scene features her. And the first person to make noises about her being 29 will get a can of Yebisu thrown at their head. Misato is perfectly happy be her own age, now that she's not in any danger of being a Christmas Cake. :p

+++

Ritsuko watched Rei walk slowly ahead of her. The First Child was noticeably slow and stiff. She'd needed another dose of tranquilizers and painkillers on waking this morning. Ritsuko's scans had revealed her AT-Field was a little better, but still ragged and thinned. Rei had twitched and flinched from everyone they'd even come within shouting distance of on their way up from her lab. Ritsuko had done her best to clear the route, but she couldn't make it completely empty.

It had taken them half an hour to reach Misato's office. Rei was sweating heavily. "Too... too many... get me... inside," she said weakly. "Please."

Ritsuko nodded, and opened the door.

Misato looked up from a desk still buried in paperwork, her eyebrows rising further as an even more pale than usual Rei followed her in and took a seat in the corner, sweating. "Rei, you look… not so hot. Ritsuko, what's going on? Is she alright?"

"No, she's not," Ritsuko said, pursing her lips. "She is… I've done as much as I can here, though. She needs lots of rest and quiet, away from people unless she knows them well. Here." She proffered some pages to her friend. "I've included detailed instructions for her treatment, but right now, as an official order as the Chairwoman of Project E and Rei's doctor, you, Major, are hereby ordered to escort the First Child to her residence and see to her disposition for the rest of the day."

Misato's eyebrows couldn't get any higher, so they shifted to mild suspicion. "You're… ordering me to take the rest of the day off, see Rei home, then tuck her in?" she asked, taking the papers. "Usually you ask me if I'm drunk."

Morbidly wondering just what combo of painkillers and tranquilizers Ritsuko has Rei on now (albeit thankfully temporary, and presumably at a far lower dosage). Opioids and benzodiazepines apparently don't play too well together (or at least have a high risk of overdose when combined), but then, Rei's been on dosages that would kill an ordinary human before. Cursory research suggest the poor girl must be in terrible pain indeed for that combination to not have her either comatose, or high as a kite...:cry:
 
The difference between Fantasy and Science Fiction is a matter of semantics more than anything else, so that's really not changing anything.
True, they both use similar tropes and are used to explore similar ideas, but the generic version of fantasy is rather different from the generic version of Sci-Fi. That is, to me, what makes them different genres. They are closely related, and one can easily masquerade as the other, but there are distinct differences between them.
 
Morbidly wondering just what combo of painkillers and tranquilizers Ritsuko has Rei on now (albeit thankfully temporary, and presumably at a far lower dosage). Opioids and benzodiazepines apparently don't play too well together (or at least have a high risk of overdose when combined), but then, Rei's been on dosages that would kill an ordinary human before. Cursory research suggest the poor girl must be in terrible pain indeed for that combination to not have her either comatose, or high as a kite...:cry:
That, along with the prescribing doctor knowing her down to the genome.
 
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