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Advice and Trust [NGE]

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Captain Clever said:
You'll also remember she doesn't do any of the cooking herself! :V
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No she made Asuka, Rei, and Shinji breakfast once and they all enjoyed it.
Captain Clever said:
The other thing that Holding Hands nails is that canon Asuka and Shinji aren't traditionally good for each other so much as they bring out the best AND the worst of each other. They set up both a virtuous and a vicious cycle where they egg each other on to be better in ways that they need, but also prick precisely at each other's worst traits.
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This is a much more realistic view of how their relationship would be like if they got together in canon.
 
I dunno, weren't they pirating anime? And wouldn't throwing anime into another universe for safe storage be a good way to do so?

Granted, that's not Nyarko-chan's doing, but it could definitely be her ilk.
 
I can't wait until Gendo realises that he can no longer coerce the pilots and gets thrown into the sun.
 
Gendo losing control isn't the problem. The problem is having him lose control while it still fucking matters. By End of Evangelion it didn't matter because everyone in the cast we actually cared about was fucked.
 
Captain Clever said:
It's something you see a lot in the old Eva fics. Asuka likes Shinji, but she likes the competent & cool Shinji who kills Angels and doesn't afraid of anybody. We know now that it's not true (According to Anno, Asuka likes Shinji's sweetness and is THAT BAD at telling him and gets horrifically jealous/upset if he pays attention to other girls), but it's still all too easy to imagine that Asuka has a specific vision for what she wants in her life partner and is bad enough at communicating to make the budding relationship initially.... unpleasant, shall we say.
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The irony of the Tsundere archetype is that it's popular specifically for this reason. There is the idea that the Tsundere will be just fine, just as soon as she can be "tamed", which is attractive to fans of the archetype. But of course with the "taming" you kill off exactly what made the character attractive in the first place. So as with Taming of the Shrew, (Older Than Shakespeare) you end up with a lot of mixed messages.

Since Shinji doesn't really come off as an Amazon Chaser (Rei, his other love interest, is even more passive than HE is) he can admit that he likes Asuka's strength, but he doesn't see it as a challenge. Instead, in A&T he rises to the challenge for HER sake, because she outright tells him that she thrives on competition. He's not really doing it for himself.
 
AlanMidnight said:
The irony of the Tsundere archetype is that it's popular specifically for this reason.
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I thought the irony of the tsundere archetype is that Asuka codified it without being one herself. :p

Also the other irony is from a study I read a few years ago about how first meetings influence your opinion on people, that concluded by saying that we respond best to and feel the most warmly about people with whom we had a difficult first meeting with and then a progressively slowly improving relationship. Translation: we have a psychological bias towards the melting tsundere plotline, in real life. :V

But no, Asuka's not really tsundere, she's poorly socialized from never being around people her own age, traumatized from her mother's insanity and death, and a bit of a misandrist thanks to her father betraying her mother. Maybe most importantly to her on-screen interactions with Shinji, Asuka's taking cues on how to be an adult from Misato.

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Copious junk food, messy eating habits, skimpy homewear, complex about the men in her life? Hello Misato 2.0.

EDIT: Thinking about it, that really could be where Asuka's crush on Kaji comes from. Misato's an adult woman who Asuka respects, Asuka wants to be an adult woman, Kaji is Misato's ex, if Asuka can land Kaji she'll be as much a woman as Misato, and better if Asuka can keep him.
 
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Captain Clever said:
I thought the irony of the tsundere archetype is that Asuka codified it without being one herself. :p

Also the other irony is from a study I read a few years ago about how first meetings influence your opinion on people, that concluded by saying that we respond best to and feel the most warmly about people with whom we had a difficult first meeting with and then a progressively slowly improving relationship. Translation: we have a psychological bias towards the melting tsundere plotline, in real life. :V

But no, Asuka's not really tsundere, she's poorly socialized from never being around people her own age, traumatized from her mother's insanity and death, and a bit of a misandrist thanks to her father betraying her mother. Maybe most importantly to her on-screen interactions with Shinji, Asuka's taking cues on how to be an adult from Misato.


Copious junk food, messy eating habits, skimpy homewear, complex about the men in her life? Hello Misato 2.0.

EDIT: Thinking about it, that really could be where Asuka's crush on Kaji comes from. Misato's an adult woman who Asuka respects, Asuka wants to be an adult woman, Kaji is Misato's ex, if Asuka can land Kaji she'll be as much a woman as Misato, and better if Asuka can keep him.
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Is that scene from the Eva manga, or a fanmade publication? It rings a bell, so I've certainly read it, but I don't really remember where... :confused:
 
Gryphon said:
Is that scene from the Eva manga, or a fanmade publication? It rings a bell, so I've certainly read it, but I don't really remember where... :confused:
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Chapter 34 yeah.

(Huh, I'd forgotten that goading Hikari into asking Touji out is what leads to Asuka trying to seduce Kaji, using the old "we don't know when we're going to die" line... Geez, she feels a lot more strongly for him here.)
 
Captain Clever said:
I thought the irony of the tsundere archetype is that Asuka codified it without being one herself. :p
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I think that it can be argued that Asuka is an attempt to realistically portray the Tsundere archetype as a real person with traumas that explain that behavior. If you define a Tsundere as a character (usually female, because it's basically behavior which is usually portrayed as "masculine") who acts "tough" and independent, pushing people away rather than letting them get close, and suppresses her attraction to her love interest in favor of pretending that she despises him, then that description fits Asuka. (Note she does NOT hide her interest in Kaji. She rejects Shinji because she doesn't think he can be what she wants, but what she's really afraid of is that HE will reject HER, an ultimately self-fulfilling prophesy)

If you define a Tsundere as a paranoid boy-hater with lesbian subtexts who reacts violently to anything which can be misinterpreted as sexual, (the more modern interpretation) then no, that doesn't fit Asuka. In fact, Asuka is explicitly very sexual, although she pretends otherwise in public. (And this suggests that Asuka's reasons for being Tsundere are not sexual, although she clearly has a fear of intimacy)

I think Asuka also resents Misato, for a number of reasons. Obviously there is that Kaji is attracted to Misato, and just thinks of Asuka as a child, but she also doesn't seem to view Misato's more slothful habits as a role model. It IS interesting that she has no interest in housework, though, preferring to push Shinji around. She may feel too "important" to be doing household chores, but then, it's also possible that's due to her age.
 
Apologies for the interjection if this is not to everyone's taste but I think I've found the ballad of OT4
 
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AlanMidnight said:
If you define a Tsundere as a paranoid boy-hater with lesbian subtexts who reacts violently to anything which can be misinterpreted as sexual, (the more modern interpretation) then no, that doesn't fit Asuka. In fact, Asuka is explicitly very sexual, although she pretends otherwise in public. (And this suggests that Asuka's reasons for being Tsundere are not sexual, although she clearly has a fear of intimacy)
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Eh? The modern interpretation of a Tsundere isn't that. The modern Tsundere is still fundamentally someone who is insecure about her feelings towards a love interest and hence reacts harshly towards (or about) that love interest, especiallywhen the possibility of intimacy with them is raised. While the archetype has spread into the yuri genre, whether the love interest in question is sapphic or not is really beside the point and "hating men" is in no way regarded as part of the archetype, although it can be. Whether she uses violence in her "Tsun" reaction, and how much violence she uses, is more a question of how harsh her "Tsun" side is rather then whether she is Tsundere or not and is applied regardless of the gender of the love interest (I have seen yuri manga where the tsundere is violently Tsun to her love interest).
 
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While we're on the subject, it is worth pondering if one could ever write a good story with a male tsundere that avoids the obvious pitfalls that would make such a character come off more as creepy or assholish rather then endearing. I have seen precisely one case that one could make an arguement for and it is rather telling that the instance was both debatable and a slapstick comedy.

StorymasterQ said:
*Sees discussion*

Must not visit TVTropes... Must not visit TVTropes... Must not visit TVTropes...
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:rage: Suffer... :rage:
 
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AlanMidnight said:
I think Asuka also resents Misato, for a number of reasons. Obviously there is that Kaji is attracted to Misato, and just thinks of Asuka as a child, but she also doesn't seem to view Misato's more slothful habits as a role model. It IS interesting that she has no interest in housework, though, preferring to push Shinji around. She may feel too "important" to be doing household chores, but then, it's also possible that's due to her age.
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In keeping with being Shinji's equal and opposite in every way, Asuka has an Electra complex with regards to Misato and Kaji. She's competing with Misato by emulating her (consciously or not) and by chasing after Kaji, who is the closest thing Asuka has to a father figure in the series.

Like you said, the housework thing is her being a brat.

obssesednuker said:
While we're on the subject, it is worth pondering if one could ever write a good story with a male tsundere that avoids the obvious pitfalls that would make such a character come off more as creepy or assholish rather then endearing. I have seen precisely one case that one could make an argument for and it is rather telling that the instance was both debatable and a slapstick comedy.
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I'll have "The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya" for $500, Alex.
 
He's pretty mild as far as most tsundere are concerned (there's not any outright abuse he perpetrates on Haruhi that I can remember), but yeah.

Though he's not so much in denial of his feelings as he probably can't safely act on them.

Haruhi is a more classical example.
 
Captain Clever said:
I'll have "The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya" for $500, Alex.
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Huh? That actually does make some sense if you squint. Although Haruhi isn't a slapstick comedy (it has slapstick but that's not the same thing as being a slapstick comedy) and is even more debatable. Okay, two examples then. The one I was thinking of was Aho-girl.
 
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Schpoonman said:
He's pretty mild as far as most tsundere are concerned (there's not any outright abuse he perpetrates on Haruhi that I can remember), but yeah.

Though he's not so much in denial of his feelings as he probably can't safely act on them.

Haruhi is a more classical example.
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This reminds me of my WIP fanfic that I started years ago about how the Brigade would act and react to Haruhi actually finding out about her powers. Maybe I'll try to continue it.

But this is A&T so let's return to that.
 
Personally, my definition of a Tsundere is that it is a pretty mundane one: A person with a sometimes abrasive and/or fiery personality that often belies a much gentler, sensitive and/or compassionate nature.

Something which (like all archetypes - geeks, jocks etc) do exist in real life but in a considerably less stylized and much more nuanced manner.
 
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I think what everyone in this thread ignored in all the discussion is that the tsundere is a mostly Japanese concept, born out of the classic Japanese way of not talking about it. By that definition, many western characters would fall under tsundere, except that they mostly ultimately talk about their feelings.
 
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