Paths of Civilization

Wiadi · Dec 4, 2017

Killer_Whale said:
So, this is the end of the Ymaryn as we knew it. We're going to be at a much greater risk of civil wars in the future, we may even have our own version of the French Revolution. But something of the Ymaryn will live on forever.

Seriously though, I will be surprised if we haven't had a civil war, or vassal split off in the next 20 updates.

Edit: We did make it much farther than I expected.

If you think we'll have civil war even if we DL, why not vote against it? It means we just get one civil war, and if we win we're actually in a decent position at the end, provided we manage the war itself well.

PyroTechno · Dec 4, 2017

This fascinating argument between the uncompromising radical leftist and the vaguely infuriating sheep with points I mostly agree with will surely result in peace, happiness, and no application of a Banhammer whatsoever.

In the meantime, I'd like to contribute a small vote:

[X] [Secondary] Distribute Land
[X] [Secondary] Distribute Land x2
[X] [Agenda] Sea Control

Susano · Dec 4, 2017

PyroTechno said:
This fascinating argument between the uncompromising radical leftist

Well, I mean, you make it look like we're the rebels starting a war over some ideological point.

Instead of that being, you know, the Patricians.

But hey! If the result of anybody threatening civil war is the immediate surrender of the Ymaryn, maybe we should stoke some peasant revolts!

Manget · Dec 4, 2017

Manget said:
I am OK with the vote now even if I am for Loyalty, Quality is OK I like knights

i called this all the way back when we first got the Quality Value.

not that i have ever had a problem with Quality or DL but it has always been moving towards this and anyone who thought otherwise was tying to have the cake and eat it too.

10ebbor10 · Dec 4, 2017

[X] [Merc] Yes
[X] [Agenda] Sea Control
[X] [Sec] Distribute Land
[X] [Sec] Distribute Land x2
[X] [Sec] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Sec] Enforce Justice
[X] [Sec] Proclaim Glory
[X] [Sec] Found Free City - Sacred Forest
[X] [Sec] Found Free City - Lower Valleyhome
[X] [Sec] Art Patronage
[X] [Guild Sec] More Warships

We kind of backed ourselves in a corner here, didn't we?

DragonParadox · Dec 4, 2017

Susano said:
But hey! If the result of anybody threatening civil war is the immediate surrender of the Ymaryn, maybe we should stoke some peasant revolts!

Not really, peasant revolts are not civil war material. They simply lack the strength to organize properly . Mechanically it would probably just be a few points of lost stability and a few thousand dead peasants while the patricians bemoan their lost coin... and tear it out of the hide of the survivors. Let's not have peasant revolts.

ctulhuslp · Dec 4, 2017

Oirbse said:
Rather hyperbolic, anything if taken to an extreme can be bad...Imagine what would happen if we meet environmental polluters (PSN), or if the people we took in refused to follow our laws (Harmony), or if a dozen different groups tried to seize power (DoP), or if people got it into their heads that we were sinful/ bad/ something and tried to kill themselves in mass (HD).

Striving for excellence is not bad, in fact its the opposite, mediocrity is a life of waste and neglected.
And following the kings madate to the letter? No one is perfect, our leaders both in the game and real life have and will always make mistakes...
I thought that was why the America's rebelled (That and being told they could loot and kill the french colonies / Indians as part of the "so called" intolerable acts)
What if we get a mad/ depressed/ glory hungry/ bigoted King ?

Civil war is not the answer, revolts like this lead to nothing by mob justice and death...Needless death, for what? We temporally gain nobles, and spend the next few turns inventing laws and reforms and tests to stem the bad apples before getting a GA bonus with a genius Admin to help do some form of exam / land reform thing / legislation in terms of how votes are done...Or we go murder death kill over Nobles?

Will we have the same reaction when the Merchant princes form? Or when the Mega corps hold our throats? What of the Priests and damnation? Or the terror of Mob justice like examples of Russia and France?

Eh....revolts can also be like English one (Cromwell did nothing wrong!) or French (they did a lot wrong, but they also pushed human rights and dignity down European throats because fuckos did not understand language other that guillotine). So, well. It is the last resort, but I can see situations in which rebellion is better than status quo.

PyroTechno said:
This fascinating argument between the uncompromising radical leftist and the vaguely infuriating sheep with points I mostly agree with will surely result in peace, happiness, and no application of a Banhammer whatsoever.

In the meantime, I'd like to contribute a small vote:

[X] [Secondary] Distribute Land
[X] [Secondary] Distribute Land x2
[X] [Agenda] Sea Control

Hm? It is radical leftism to think no single faction should be above the law and that traits which promote this are cancer to the fabric of society? Well, then I shall wear the badge of "does not think bloodline makes one above the law" with pride.

Susano · Dec 4, 2017

10ebbor10 said:
We kind of backed ourselves in a corner here, didn't we?

There IS a way out. Simply... not giving in to the Patricians' blackmail. We have the resources to beat down an uprising.

ctulhuslp said:
Hm? It is radical leftism to think no single faction should be above the law and that traits which promote this are cancer to the fabric of society? Well, then I shall wear the badge of "does not think bloodline makes one above the law" with pride.

So you say, but your vote...

highs2lows · Dec 4, 2017

[X] Susano

maximillian · Dec 4, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
Eh....revolts can also be like English one (Cromwell did nothing wrong!) or French (they did a lot wrong, but they also pushed human rights and dignity down European throats because fuckos did not understand language other that guillotine). So, well. It is the last resort, but I can see situations in which rebellion is better than status quo.

Hm? It is radical leftism to think no single faction should be above the law and that traits which promote this are cancer to the fabric of society? Well, then I shall wear the badge of "does not think bloodline makes one above the law" with pride.

It is to think that one figure is the voice of law and that all must bow to it regardless of how tyrannical the figure and its apparatus are.
Laws should be at most provencial, never central.

ctulhuslp · Dec 4, 2017

Susano said:
Well, I mean, you make it look like we're the rebels starting a war over some ideological point.

Instead of that being, you know, the Patricians.

But hey! If the result of anybody threatening civil war is the immediate surrender of the Ymaryn, maybe we should stoke some peasant revolts!

Nah, rural population is bad revolt material. We need bourgeoisie revolution against tyranny of hereditary elites; that is, Urban Poor+Traders+Guilds are our bet.
Needs more theory behind it too; we lack philosophical foundation for it.

Susano said:
So you say, but your vote...

Yes; as I've said, we've lost this battle. I am just explaining why I consider it a loss and why I am going to support revolution when (not "if") aristocrats now-above-the-legal-resource abuse their positions one time too much.
If there are no legal avenues of making wrongs right, then, well. Then we just have to wait.

veekie · Dec 4, 2017

Susano said:
We have the resources to beat down an uprising.

Minor reminder that the Patricians currently have enough Cavalry to count as a small nomad horde by themselves. Yes the Spiritbonded are under the priests, but half our Cavalry score is Patrician recruited nomad horde and half the remaining Spiritbonded are patrician sons.

2/3 of our mercenaries are staffed by Patricians.
What about the Urban Levies? Why, we've set things up so that their weapons are all stored in the storehouses in the governor palaces after all so they won't be used in criminal activities.

Well, what about the ironworks? They make weapons right? As it turns out the ironworks are operated by the Guilds who are still kind of pissed off about the half exile thing. They will follow the money. Distribute Land makes money.

So turn that phrase around: They have the resources to beat down an uprising.

Broccoliccoli · Dec 4, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
I am not annoyed by DL....however, I am pissed as all fuck by trait evolution.
Arete traitline is a cancer on society; there is healthy individualism, it would have been merging Arete line into Symphony or PiA and making a healthy combo of "Strength in Diversity" or something.
As is, it is explicitly a trait of social stratification and Great Manning bullshit.

If we had an option to take Civil War with outcome of "Arete traitline is purged and will never taint us with its presence", I would gladly take it. There is healthy individualism aka "Society of individuals". Arete line is not it, it is antisocial "Individual above society" cancer.

Choosing Quality over Quantity way back was totally our greatest mistake ever.

ctulhuslp · Dec 4, 2017

CeBrudras said:
Choosing Quality over Quantity way back was totally our greatest mistake ever.

One of greatest at least; we had other silly moments.

veekie · Dec 4, 2017

CeBrudras said:
Choosing Quality over Quantity way back was totally our greatest mistake ever.

In this respect, yes. In terms of winning our wars it really DID pay off though. And it made Gymnasiums possible, as well as the Games. It was one of the driving forces for Academies, the presence of skilled royal councils and the lack of Idiot kings.

We wouldn't have this problem without it. We wouldn't be as successful either.

Susano · Dec 4, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
Yes; as I've said, we've lost this battle. I am just explaining why I consider it a loss and why I am going to support revolution when (not "if") aristocrats now-above-the-legal-resource abuse their positions one time too much.
If there are no legal avenues of making wrongs right, then, well. Then we just have to wait.

That seems utterly backwards to me. Yes, maybe there will come another chance to fight a civil war to free ourselves, in 500 or 1000 years... but now we have the chance as well! It's an uprising we can beat, and that will give us the time to work on this problem! And if it is just by empowering the guilds!

veekie said:
So turn that phrase around: They have the resources to beat down an uprising.

Only if the Patricians are a hivemind, with every last governor falling in line, nevermind that it would be open rebellion against the king. They are powerful, yes, but they can be beaten, especially given the current conditions with two Martial Geniuses. We can in fact mobilize the Levies; the priests will keep the spirit bonded in line; the nomad-descended light cav martial can go either way, and among the Banners, the Blood Rain banner was originally raised from the urban poor, and we know the Red Banner is very open in recruitment, in fact.

Oirbse · Dec 4, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
Eh....revolts can also be like English one (Cromwell did nothing wrong!) or French (they did a lot wrong, but they also pushed human rights and dignity down European throats because fuckos did not understand language other that guillotine). So, well. It is the last resort, but I can see situations in which rebellion is better than status quo.

Hm? It is radical leftism to think no single faction should be above the law and that traits which promote this are cancer to the fabric of society? Well, then I shall wear the badge of "does not think bloodline makes one above the law" with pride.

Was Cromwell a joke? (Legit can't tell) Didn't he install himself as a genocidal king, and start killing the Irish? (And didn;t his dad work for the red bearded king, the king that tried to remove the maga ctara thing) Or the French republic Terror killers after killing the royal family? (Plus France fell because it spent too much money saving America from Britain.) I mean there have been plenty of bad monarchies don't mistake me, most Russian ones would count....

I just realised I forgot the point I was trying to make, well that and the fact that mob rule is terrifying, republics and monarchies can both do horrible things

Chacmon · Dec 4, 2017

[X] Veekie

Wiadi · Dec 4, 2017

PyroTechno said:
uncompromising radical leftist

Yoink!

ctulhuslp said:
If there are no legal avenues of making wrongs right, then, well. Then we just have to wait.

Wait for what, exactly? For the Patricians to nobly, of their own volition, provide some legal means of remedying the situation? You don't really expect they're going to accept more checks on their power after this, do you?

highs2lows · Dec 4, 2017

Do this in any name but mine. The blood of the proletariat is on your hands today.

LoserThree · Dec 4, 2017

veekie said:
They have the resources to beat down an uprising.

The damn post says, 'Civil War,' not 'you don't have a choice.'

You are letting your fear do your thinking for you.

Gather up your courage and stand up for what's right!

Civil War is preferable to Land Distribution!

ctulhuslp · Dec 4, 2017

Susano said:
That seems utterly backwards to me. Yes, maybe there will come another chance to fight a civil war to free ourselves, in 500 or 1000 years... but now we have the chance as well! It's an uprising we can beat, and that will give us the time to work on this problem! And if it is just by empowering the guilds!

No, not really; @veekie is right in that nobody IC yet understand why is this a problematic thing. They won't until the aristocracy generates history of abusing their power.
Then we can either have a shot at reforming it and going the constitutional monarchy path or, if we cannot peacefully reform, revolution.

Oirbse said:
Was Cromwell a joke? (Legit can't tell) Didn't he install himself as a genocidal king, and start killing the Irish? (And didn;t his dad work for the red bearded king, the king that tried to remove the maga ctara thing) Or the French republic Terror killers after killing the royal family? (Plus France fell because it spent too much money saving America from Britain.) I mean there have been plenty of bad monarchies don't mistake me, most Russian ones would count....

I just realised I forgot the point I was trying to make, well that and the fact that mob rule is terrifying, republics and monarchies can both do horrible things

To the best of my knowledge, a lot of atrocities he "committed" were written about by monarchists which overthrew him, and were various shades of bull. Not all, likely, revolutions are never nice, but exaggerated.

Carrnage · Dec 4, 2017

@Academia Nut shouldn't a powerful unsupressible faction threatening civil war count as a crisis?

PyroTechno · Dec 4, 2017

Susano said:
Well, I mean, you make it look like we're the rebels starting a war over some ideological point.

Instead of that being, you know, the Patricians.

But hey! If the result of anybody threatening civil war is the immediate surrender of the Ymaryn, maybe we should stoke some peasant revolts!

The Patricians are the ruling faction, and encompass the King and the entire government. In a Civil War, the anti-DL group would, in fact, be a group of ideological rebels responding to a new law being rammed past a block that exists for no in-character reason.

ctulhuslp said:
Hm? It is radical leftism to think no single faction should be above the law and that traits which promote this are cancer to the fabric of society? Well, then I shall wear the badge of "does not think bloodline makes one above the law" with

How, exactly, is it above the law to ask for land reform? Did we explicitly make a law against that at some point?

Distribute Land enjoys broad support across society, as every faction is either for it, unaffected, or ambivalent. If it fails, the Ymaryn aren't elves, they're Tau, now with an Ethereal Caste composed entirely of salt and congealed metagaming.

Susano · Dec 4, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
No, not really; @veekie is right in that nobody IC yet understand why is this a problematic thing. They won't until the aristocracy generates history of abusing their power.

But they don't NEED to. Look, as it is, it will simply be nobles' uprising against the king. People will realize THAT is bad. And that's all we need. The Patricians will rise up, and that is basically gambling everything on one dice roll. If they lose that roll (and chances for that are good), they will be utterly fucked and unable to roll the dice again for quite some time. That gives use time to proof our system. Yes, we won't have human rights and stuff, but we didn't need such concepts so far, either.

PyroTechno said:
The Patricians are the ruling faction, and encompass the King and the entire government. In a Civil War, the anti-DL group would, in fact, be a group of ideological rebels responding to a new law being rammed past a block that exists for no in-character reason.

Nobles' uprisings are a thing, you know. This would be one, plain and simple. The patricians demand land reform, and will rise up if they don't get it.

How, exactly, is it above the law to ask for land reform? Did we explicitly make a law against that at some point?

cthul was talking about the new trait. However: They are threatening civil war to get that land reform!

Paths of Civilization

Uncompromising Radical Leftist

The Procrastination Pokemon

DON'T PANIC

Civilised Sheep

Stars Will Blossom In The Darkness

Uncompromising Radical Leftist

Finds writing poorly easy

Human

The Procrastination Pokemon