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Paths of Civilization

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[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[X] [PP] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3
 
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We really need the Skullduggery policy. We're at Intrigue 3 and are likely to go to war with the Highland Kingdom soon, and we need a high Intrigue score to prevent them from causing us problems. Skullduggery is the only reasonable way we have of raising our Intrigue score, whereas City Support just gives econ we can get cheaply via Expand Econ.

veekie said:
Ooo, a Wonder!
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I'm pretty sure it just gives out a bunch of bonus prestige. While that's not a bad thing, we don't really need more Prestige for anything right now and it's certainly not worth it if we're also doubling wealth costs.

8bitBob said:
Jesus, I can't believe the [PP] vote has almost flipped. veekiewagon too strong. :lol
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Yeah, I pushed hard for the Infrastructure x3 and then Veekie comes along and almost doubles the vote count in just a few pages.
 
George said:
Did you think of a specific infrastructure passive policy result that you think helps innovate Black Soil, to support your earlier claim?
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It will be almost entirely background, but we're looking at.

Ironworks: increased iron tools to build things for mechanization. A strict increase in mechanization itself.
Academies: Increased knowledge in mathematics and other disciplines to allow more people to come up with mechanization ideas.
Temples: Increase in knowledge discriminaztion to the lower classes to allow for an overall easier ability to improve critical thinking, and thus improve innovations.
Libraries: Increase in stored knowledge that will synergize with other forms and help upper class.
Block Housing: Increase in city level that will allow increase increase in skilled artisans to build things on a cheaper level.

That's just off the top of my head, many of the other infrastructure policies either give us wealth directly or support the urbanization needed to make the above possible.

Edit: Basically we need all the infrastructure for this.
 
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[X] [Dam] Make it as big and impressiveas possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[X] [PP] City Support (4 Econ cost for True Cities offset each turn, -1 Tech)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct,governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct,governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3

The biggest problem with this plan (that I am voting for) is it makes purity batter for us to keep.
 
Andres110 said:
A Wonder here is not worth it, especially since the primary benefit of making it a Wonder is dick-measuring. Let's get the dam done more cheaply and faster so that we can get the canal going and so we don't bankrupt ourselves on this.
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Note that this is the exact same thing AN said the Mountain project was for.

Turns out it boosts the construction of all large structures huh?
AN says that when we don't know IC what it'd give.
LuciDreamer said:
@veekie, what's our Econ income at right now? If it's bad, I'll switch to City Support.
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Subordinates +5
Cities -8

After 2 turns of Infrastructure spamming markets we can expect the city costs to hit -10 to -12.
City will come online next 2 turns as a result too.

I mean, yeah, generating Econ is cheap.
But it's fragile as hell. Just see the last plague. If we're going on City Production Spam to pay for the half exiles, we NEED the City Support to not lose both Wealth and Econ self sufficiency instantly.

And well, with Markets, City Support is basically a more efficient Wealth policy.
Kiba said:
We have five progress and we already have a Valleyhome market. With three additional policies, we will be doing eleven progress. (1 undoubled, five infrastructure policies)

So we can finish the Priest quest in one fell swoop, with five leftover, and then get started on finishing a market, before turning our eyes on to the next one.
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FYI, we're looking at needing to finish 5 markets in 2 main turns if we want to be able to do anything ELSE.
George said:
That does seem like a possibility and I recognized it in some of my later posts; however, I find it extremely likely that such an innovation would either add a Tech cost(note that it already costs 1 Tech) or a Wealth cost, and that we'd find the action not very useful after that due to our circumstances. Technological advancement, so far, has always boosted the end result at a cost of Tech or Wealth - see Expand Economy as the primary example. However, as to innovation being the primary result of 'additional effects' I don't think that's possible, since Artisan Games adds 1 Wealth cost to all innovation type rolls and Black Soil doesn't cost Wealth - due to this, I think the chance for innovation is rather low, rather than the normal 20% baseline for a roll directly identified as an innovation roll. I think 'addtional effects' mostly covers Black Soil's role in things like terraforming and labor demand.

Did you think of a specific infrastructure passive policy result that you think helps innovate Black Soil, to support your earlier claim?
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This is not a claim, it's quest history. We did the exact thing during the Sacred Forest project.

Currently we're looking at squeezing profit back out of the lower classes, as represented by making markets so that the money we pay them gets spent.
 
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veekie said:
Subordinates +5
Cities -8

After 2 turns of Infrastructure spamming markets we can expect the city costs to hit -10 to -12.
City.

I mean, yeah, generating Econ is cheap.
But it's fragile as hell. Just see the last plague. If we're going on City Production Spam to pay for the half exiles, we NEED the City Support to not lose both Wealth and Econ self sufficiency instantly.

And well, with Markets, City Support is basically a more efficient Wealth policy.
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We also need Skullduggery-to generate Intrigue when we're up against another nation with an Intrigue stat. If need be our Free Cities can take City Support-and they will.
 
We are going to need to hunt troublemakers next turn. We can pretty much guarantee that the Hoghlanders are going to use intrigue missions as part of their war effort.
 
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veekie said:
This is not a claim, it's quest history. We did the exact thing during the Sacred Forest project.

Currently we're looking at squeezing profit back out of the lower classes, as represented by making markets so that the money we pay them gets spent.
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Yes? It happening to previous actions makes it possible, not certain. I think it's totally possible for there to be some actions that we can't upgrade by spamming, and there being some actions that we can does not refute that claim. Both it being a "claim" and it being "history" mean that it is a possibility.

Also, why is everyone ignoring that mechanization will add Tech and Wealth costs to Black Soil? How is that not central to this debate?
 
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Honestly, I don't expect anything to happen whether or not we grab Skull or City for one more turn. We won't bankrupt on econ and we have enough for a Hunt Troublemakers. I'm not gonna bother sweating the difference.
 
veekie said:
But it's fragile as hell. Just see the last plague. If we're going on City Production Spam to pay for the half exiles, we NEED the City Support to not lose both Wealth and Econ self sufficiency instantly.
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Huh? No seriously what? Having any number of City Support policies wouldn't've helped us at all last plague. We were at max true econ the whole time, and City Support wouldn't help us deal with the temp econ damage.
veekie said:
And well, with Markets, City Support is basically a more efficient Wealth policy.
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No, because we're still limited on our LTE refund limit and we're easily able to overflow Econ with just Expand Econ actions. We need that Skullduggery to deal with the HK.

8bitBob said:
Honestly, I don't expect anything to happen whether or not we grab Skull or City for one more turn. We won't bankrupt on econ and we have enough for a Hunt Troublemakers. I'm not gonna bother sweating the difference.
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1) Low Intrigue makes us vulnerable to high-Intrigue enemies
2) Hunt Troublemakers' results sometimes cost us extra Intrigue to implement a solution to (see last turn)
 
George said:
Yes? It happening to previous actions makes it possible, not certain. I think it's totally possible for there to be some actions that we can't upgrade by spamming, and there being some actions that we can does not refute that claim. Both it being a "claim" and it being "history" mean that it is a possibility.

Also, why is everyone ignoring that mechanization will add Tech and Wealth costs to Black Soil? How is that not central to this debate?
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Mechanization increases capital cost absolutely, but it also increases productivity much more to the point that it's worth the cost.

Right now, ironworks merely increases the availability of tools, but it doesn't actually made any technical innovations. We're still waiting on things like seed drills.
 
[X] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[X] [PP] City Support (4 Econ cost for True Cities offset each turn, -1 Tech)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3
 
veekie said:
And well, with Markets, City Support is basically a more efficient Wealth policy.
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If you're evaluating on this, you're still wrong; Skullduggery is a 4-point Wealth policy to City Support's three, and doesn't cost us a tech in the bargain.

We're quite aware of how useful Econ is, veekie. It's still worth less than the Intrigue right now.
 
[X] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] The Puritans broke (Lose the Purity trait, possible loss of the prohibition on slavery)
[X] [PP] Patronage (+1 Culture/turn)
[X] [PP] Mysticism (+1 Mysticism/turn)
[X] [PP] Industry (+1 Tech/turn)
[X] [PP] Expansion (So long as there is land to expand into, +1 Econ Expansion/turn, reduces threshold to produce new provinces the longer active)

We need to focus on expanding into some of that empty territory. The Highlanders are clearly expansionist so we should move to secure territory as a counterweight against their gains.
 
Kiba said:
Mechanization increases capital cost absolutely, but it also increases productivity much more to the point that it's worth the cost.

Right now, ironworks merely increases the availability of tools, but it doesn't actually made any technical innovations. We're still waiting on things like seed drills.
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Does Build MIlls represent the sort of mechanization you're talking about? If so, then would you expect the Black Soil action evolution to resemble the Build MIlls action?
 
Harmurri: "How much? THIS....IS OUTRAGEOUS!"
Ymaryn bath attendant: "That is the cost, sir."
Harmurri: "Why is the price so god damn high?"
Ymaryn bath attendant: "We found the half-exiles too much like slaves."
Harmurri: *mutter* "No wonder." *pays bath attendant anyway*
 
[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3
[X] [PP] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
 
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Citino said:
Huh? Why would they be able to steal cement?

Unless you are certain that they can beat both the Harmurri and us alone for some reason?
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He's being defeatist at Veekie getting the City Support policy through. I don't think that's going to happen so long as we fight against it and keep Skullduggery in the running. We really need the Skullduggery, and right now it's still ahead.
 
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