Thread has slowed down a bit, so I figure there's time for a longer post without it being immediately lost to the crush of votes.

First of all, I fully expect the reform vote to go through, so I'm not going to waste time discussing that. Rather, I just want to go over the ramifications of this change, and the general shift people are probably going to need to accept with it.


For starters, urbanization.

Don't like cities? Too bad. We just voted to make them essential. Every new city and city level translates to increasing our wealth. In particular, we'll be reliant on Free Cities since they're much harder to pop. Because we need to prevent plagues, we need aqueducts and baths. Combined with marketplaces giving +2 threshold and Valleyhome getting Block Housing after the Dam, we'll be getting a lot of them. This means we'll need a large amount of Infrastructure passives going at all times, since manually building the majority of extended projects just became horrifically expensive.

This is a natural consequence of gutting our cheap labour source. We can't just force people to build stuff for us anymore, so we need trade to pay for stuff. We've rejected being an external trade power, so we're stuck leveraging our strengths as a population dense civ with marketplaces. No, I am not saying we need to do this immediately, but this is the trend we just committed to.

Technically, there is an alternative in that we can start allowing private ownership of land and start distributing it, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

This goes hand in hand with industrialization.

If we succeed in reforming the half-exile system, then we're going to be taking away a huge source of income. Long term, factions like Guilds, Traders and Patricians are going to look to innovate their way out of this need to actually pay people, and industrialization is the most likely result for us. I fully expect that, after the tantrum quests, we'll receive a deluge of quests that encourage things like building Ceramics, Ironworks, Academies, Docks, having higher level cities and the like. When you can't force someone to do stuff for you, you need to get creative.

Finally, increased social strife.

Aside from the massive reform we'll be pursuing, we're further opening the door for questioning societal foundations. This will have all kinds of effects, from negative ones like questioning Lord's Loyalty and conservationism, to positive things like gender equality, social mobility and disruptive technologies. Positive or negative, these events will be disruptive and lead to us juggling even more problems. Expect this to bite us a lot more before it benefits us, though.

You know, assuming it doesn't outright kill us.
 
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If there weren't heavy costs to ending slavery then civilization would have gotten rid of it quickly (well relatively to a span of civilizations) as the non slaves stimulate the economy, since that literally never happened its obvious that it isn't true.
Keep in mind that the benifits would be only seeable in the long term. Paying your lower classes a wage won't all of a sudden massively boost your economy, and would in the beginning have a high cost for pretty much anyone with any sort of power, from the lowest urban worker all the way to patricians. There is no reason for a civ to pay such a cost, especially when the benifits would, at best, be long term and indirect.
 
Man, Batman just keeps pulling through don't it?

Die the hero or live long enough to become the villain.

The half exile thing isn't my horse(removing purity is) but it sure is an interesting discussion.
Slavery no matter its name is bad mkay? I think we can agree on that, so lets not devolve it into that kind of discussion. That doesn't mean however we can ignore the costs of removing it entails, doubling wealth costs is (while not as bad as I feared) still a hefty....cost.

Idk, as long as we aren't keeping purity I'll be okay with whatever we decide I think.

That said, I'm not that partial to dams.
 
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Keep in mind that the benifits would be only seeable in the long term. Paying your lower classes a wage won't all of a sudden massively boost your economy, and would in the beginning have a high cost for pretty much anyone with any sort of power, from the lowest urban worker all the way to patricians. There is no reason for a civ to pay such a cost, especially when the benifits would, at best, be long term and indirect.
Do we have an example of this that isn't an industrialized nation or Feudal? That'd be nice to know and would convince me to change my stance
 
Alright, how to deal with this paradigm shift!

First off, as @notgreat has been pointing out, infrastructure policy is now significantly more valuable because we really aren't going to be doing that by hand ever now.

More to the point and what I've been working on, is how to get stats!

So how do we get stats? Well, I approached this with the idea of overflowing everything into wealth. This means that Econ can overflow straight into wealth at the cost of EE and other actions can overflow into wealth by just piling up.

Let's take a look at the highlights!

First the super stat block overflowing into wealth.

Build Ceramics Kilns [Guild] – With similar demands for high temperature kilns, glass and fine pottery are growing increasingly close together
*S: -2 Econ, -3 Tech, 1 Sustainable Forest used, +2 Wealth, +3 Culture, chance of new innovations x2
*M: -3 Econ, -4 Tech, 2 Sustainable Forest used, +2 Wealth, +7 Culture, increased chance of new innovations x2

Costs tech and gives us innovations. The wealth return isn't great, but the culture return is insane. We can overflow this into wealth or at least other stats to pay for existing actions.

Distribute Land - By reworking the distribution of land, the king can improve tax income and reduce pressures administrative overhead. 0/4 Progress to Min Centralization increase
*S: -1 Centralization, +2 Wealth
*M: -2 Centralization, +5 Wealth, +1 Progress

Distribute land is a choice, and in total gives about the same return as ceramics unless we can increase the tech refund more.

Plant Cash Crops - Drugs [Priests][Yeomen] – Some crops produce peculiar effects on the mind that can be in high demand for spiritual and medical uses. Available: Hemp, Poppies
*S: -2 Econ, -2 Econ Expansion, +1 Mysticism, +3 Wealth
*M: -3 Econ, -3 Econ Expansion, +1 Mysticism, +7 Wealth, other effects

Plant Cash Crops - Textiles [Guild][Yeomen] – Planting these water and soil hungry crops can produce large quantities of useful fibres for sturdy ropes and comfortable clothing. Available: Hemp, Cotton, Flax
*S: -3 Econ, -4 Econ Expansion, +6 Wealth, +1 Diplo with boats, +1 Econ next turn other effects
*M: -5 Econ, -5 Econ Expansion, +7 Wealth, +2 Diplo with boats, +1 Culture, +1 Econ next turn, other effects

Plant Cash Crops – Luxuries [Yeomen] – These crops are those that make life a bit more vibrant, flavourful, and exciting. Available: Wine, Dyes, Spices
*S: -2 Econ, -1 Econ Expansion, +2 Wealth, +2 Culture, other effects
*S: -5 Econ, -2 Econ Expansion, +6 Wealth, +2 Culture, other effects

The next actions are all the Cash Crops actions, and here is where we start getting into hilarity. Remember how we were hesitant to do this before because it would push the half-exile system into slavery more? Well guess what is no longer financially viable! This means that the increase need of base labor is going to see a large increase in mechanization or tools in order to deal with actually running much of these. Each has their strengths and weaknesses.


Next let's look at the econ overflow.

Expand Economy [Yeoman] - Encourage the growth of food producing activities such as farming, pastures, or fishing, depending on where focus is placed
*S: +6 Econ, -2 Tech, -6 Econ Expansion, potential additional effects

The backbone behind this is Expand Economy. Where as the other side will effectively be spending Econ to get wealth through overflow, this can just straight overflow econ into wealth with much more minimal stat expenditure. It also has a better return on Econ Expansion slots than the other actions at the low end. That said, we're going to want a lot of cities to increase that number. We also want a lot of true cities to increase things like our culture gain from the games, so yeah, urbanization is going to be a big deal here.

Black Soil [Yeomen] - There are many places that could benefit from further black soil, but making more is starting to take up more resources than it is currently returning
*S: +2-3 Econ Expansion, -1 Tech
*M: -2 Econ, 1 Forest Slot Consumed, -1 Tech, +6 Econ Expansion, other effects [King]
* used 3 times

This, however, this is our golden cow for getting out of this in the long run. While the cash crops can encourage mechanization to a certain degree, this is such an immensely universally similar action to it that mechanization will be highly incentivezed to occur with it. Furthermore it helps us gain the EE slots to fuel both cash crops and econ overflow.


Narrative wise, cash crops will give us an increased timer on the inevitable liquidity crises by sucking up everyone else's money and Black Soil will probably be our best bet for the initial spur of mechanization, though we will want to sneak mills in where possible. We are also going to want to spam education up ASAP while doing all of this to be able to afford the inevitable sudden tech increases that we're going to see as we switch to mechanization.
 
Do we have an example of this that isn't an industrialized nation or Feudal? That'd be nice to know and would convince me to change my stance
Nope, because other than for religious reasons, it makes no economic sense to remove slavery/half exiles at this point in time.

Like, for anyone. It cost every single one of our factions a ton to get rid of the half exiles.

As far as I know, there is no group who even tried what we are doing.
 
Man, Batman just keeps pulling through don't it?

Die the hero or live long enough to become the villain.

The half exile thing isn't my horse(removing purity is) but it sure is an interesting discussion.
Slavery no matter its name is bad mkay? I think we can agree on that, so lets not devolve it into that kind of discussion. That doesn't mean however we can ignore the costs of removing it entails, doubling wealth costs is (while not as bad as I feared) still a hefty....cost.

Idk, as long as we aren't keeping purity I'll be okay with whatever we decide I think.

That said, I'm not that partial to dams.
We keep purity in every option except the first and maybe the last. The willing option does not have losing purity as an immediate outcome.

though we will want to sneak mills in where possible.
Mills will cost 8 wealth. I don't think we are going to see them happening.
 
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Did antique china have slaves? idr.
Also, aren't we nearly at the technological level of medieval europe? Like, we need better steel but that's about it, no?
 
It should also be noted that most of the education actions are also under infrastructure, making it even more valuable than before in addition to the increased costs, we're going to be wanting more of the infrastructure projects.
 
The willing option does not have losing purity as an immediate outcome.
Let me clarify,
as long as it's conducive towards or outright gets rid of purity I'm okay with it.

That was on me, but eh.
that said, I forgot to vote:

[X] [Dam] Keep as is

seeing as we're more than likely doubling our wealth costs this is a way to mitigate that, and totally not to piss off the dam (ha) voters.



promise.

:V:V:V:V
 
[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] The Puritans broke (Lose the Purity trait, possible loss of the prohibition on slavery)
[X] [PP] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[X] [PP] City Support (4 Econ cost for True Cities offset each turn, -1 Tech)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
 
Nope, because other than for religious reasons, it makes no economic sense to remove slavery/half exiles at this point in time.

Like, for anyone. It cost every single one of our factions a ton to get rid of the half exiles.

As far as I know, there is no group who even tried what we are doing.
Then I remain unconvinced I guess.
 
I think doubling the government's spending of wealth, this is the answer of the rich to this reform, past the quests of malice
 
We're going to have to a couple of times. Windmills are something we're going to want and I'm pretty sure we only have watermills now?
Whether we "have to" or not, I strongly doubt we are going to do it. In fact, let me add it to my predictions list:

Some predictions, assuming we take the Half-Exile Reform option:
  • In the next three main turns:
    • We will have to choose between either undoing some of the reform or paying some sort of other significant cost (75%)
    • Our colonies lose significant loyalty or threaten to break off (50%)
    • The backlash actually causes us to move TOWARDS slavery instead of away from it. (25%)
  • In the next ten main turns:
    • We will NOT build Mills using a player action unless there is a quest for it (90%)
    • We will have some sort of event that disrupts our wealth income (90%)
    • We will have an event were we clearly would have benefited from having Naval (75%)
    • We will hit or go past our forest cap (25%)
NOTE: These predictions and the probability levels for them are based purely off my own intuitions; nothing more and nothing less.
 
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Current tally is 44 for the Half-Exile Rework, to 12 for the next highest alternative.
~~~~


I want to say some bad things about ~80% of thread's voters.
In the interest of civility, I won't.


Instead, I'll just leave you with one thought. Everything that comes of this will be on YOUR head.

In the rather optimistic case that this reform goes through successfully and we eventually manage to recover from the more grueling of the costs, that will be your achievement. But is our western territories leave the Ymaryn over this? If our factions revolt over this? If we end up getting killed by negative wealth income in a crisis, or screwed by the huge wealth costs of various actions, or if the reform is messed up and we end up with a worse form of slavery then the half-exile system we have now?

It's on you.
You know what will be a bucket of fun? When we go from great power to great cripple, shatter into a thousand little pieces for Highlanders or Nomads to rape at will, they will get all our techs, our culture will be ground to dust, and the very same "highly moral/correct" people will end up slaves, and so will their children and their children's children.

At best, we will spend hundreds of years as a nobody power tucked somewhere the able-bodied nations won't bother picking up.

And so nigh-on three thousand years of civilization will be so much dust in the wind. For "the right thing to do".
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Carrnage on Nov 13, 2017 at 7:57 PM, finished with 333 posts and 70 votes.
 
I see this as a sort of Panem x3. Panem has cost us ~5 econ/turn for many turns now, and at the time all it did was enable Block Housing- nice, but not that nice. Now, however, our markets are making it cost neutral while still giving the full benefits. Within a dozen turns or so it'll probably be a net positive.

Similarly, this will hurt us a lot. It's going to immediately cost us 7 Wealth/turn (8 with the medium Dam), and will probably end up at ~15 Wealth/turn total costs. In a dozen turns or so it'll start to pay off, and a dozen turns after that it'll be a positive. We just need to last that long.

Anyway, I'm hoping for an evolution of purity here. A focus on cleanliness and teaching others how to be pure rather than rejecting others for being impure. We're gonna need it because we need a ton of cities to survive the costs and we need a massive amount of sanitation to survive having that many cities. Purity is actually a very good fit for us once we evolve away its xenophobic tendencies.
 
Fair enough. Agree to disagree it is then. I will note that my position seems to generate more fun and less stress than yours, but some of that may also be possible to ascribe to differences in temperament/investment level, so it's far from an ironclad argument in favor of switching priors for game purposes. Just putting it out there though - try it, you might like it.
I think the basic dichotomy is that virtue makes people better, and consequentialism makes circumstances better. So which one you support would tend to depend on whether you'd think people or circumstances do more harm.

Of course, that's itself a meta-consequentialist point of view, but I literally can't imagine why people would be meta-virtuous - nothing good can come of it by definition. (If good came of it, it'd be the meta-consequentialist choice.) Uncharitably, I'd see that as a kind of solipsist virtue-hedonism: outcomes don't matter, only the feeling of conforming to virtue. That's not moral to me, though.
 
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What's even worse, the rural half-exiles have it better than most other "free" subjects in other nations, they are just common farmers with huge taxes, but still enough left over to survive and be healthy.

Only the city half-exiles are literal shit jobs, per WoG.

But hey, who needs to be meaningful, right? We will be happy to know we were in the right when our people are in chains we crafted ourselves after some random fuck rolls us over.

Remember when we built towards science and innovatio? Well, too bad, we can't afford that no more.
 
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I see this as a sort of Panem x3. Panem has cost us ~5 econ/turn for many turns now, and at the time all it did was enable Block Housing- nice, but not that nice. Now, however, our markets are making it cost neutral while still giving the full benefits. Within a dozen turns or so it'll probably be a net positive.
Our markets are NOT making it cost neutral. Right now, we produce an extra +2 Wealth thanks to Panem, and consume -7 Econ. That is not an equitable trade.
 
[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[X] [PP] Industry (+1 Tech/turn)
[X] [PP] Expansion (So long as there is land to expand into, +1 Econ Expansion/turn, reduces threshold to produce new provinces the longer active)
[X] [PP] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[X] [PP] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
 
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