Also, and probably the true cause for my desire, it feels morally repugnant. Like stooping to the level of neo-nazis by going to their houses and shooting down their families.
nah man thats not whats happening- its us arresting and punishing those who commit crimes in their puritanical zeal, and aggressively debating the others to get them to chill tf out
nah man thats not whats happening- its us arresting and punishing those who commit crimes in their puritanical zeal, and aggressively debating the others to get them to chill tf out
"Root and branch" here refers to a combination of political violence to execute, exile, and physically isolate a number of the major puritan priests and ringleaders while aggressively politically debating and isolating the root philosophies. Innocents and people undeserving of the punishments dealt it well get caught up in the process...
Killing is on the table, and innocents will be harmed either way.
Maybe there won't be that many killed, but even best case scenario will have a body count.
And if the things get heated...
Got to say: I think I know how an average, uneducated voter might feel like.
Here are all those economic and strategic decisions severely affecting the state of the country, put forward by what we could call elected (by popularity and self-appointed duty) representatives based upon knowledge that's outside of my expertise (or even fundamental understanding of math and mechanics ruling them).
I could, like any other voter (quest or no quest), learn those rules with enough effort. Except I don't wanna- lazy or not engaged enough, result is the same.
So not gonna vote on those, because I am not seeing my judgment as better than thread's average.
And then there's the single moral choice, controversial and simple to understand.
[] [Int] Crack down on the puritans (-2 Intrigue, -1 to +1 Stability, ???)
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
Frankly, I want to see it fail. Not because I wish anyone ill luck, but merely because I am morbidly fascinated by the prospect of it worsening or at least redirecting the Purity trait in equally wrong direction.
Also, and probably the true cause for my desire, it feels morally repugnant. Like stooping to the level of neo-nazis by going to their houses and shooting down their families, while simultaneously starting an 'All beliefs are equal!' (or some other equally liberal name) campaign.
You could say I wish for this decision to be punished, except I still think it's for the best, logically.
I labeled this funny cus it genuinely made me lol.
Also, while there will be "aggressive debating" of the root philosophies, that doesn't mean people won't die, be exiled, be imprisoned. Possibly quite a large number of people.
I kind of want to pick it for the aggressive debating, however.
It might excise Purity from our culture.
Suppressing the puritans while not actually doing shit w/ them might just alter Purity into a different form, or create unrest or a sundering of our population.
Let me see if I can explain further why I want scouts and poppies this vote.
Start with this
Economy 24/27 [+5-0]
Wealth 14/22 [+3]
This wins:
[] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded)
[] [PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)
Ends with this
Economy 22
Wealth 16-18
Martial 11
Next turn
[Main] Dam
[Secondary] Found March
[Secondary] Annex - Great Hall
[Secondary] Annex - Great Hall x2
[Secondary] Temple - Horse Valley
[Guild] More Warships
End stats with:
Economy 11
Wealth 11-13
Martial 3
Navy 4
Light Cavalry 4
and still leaves two more Secondaries, a Guild Main and Guild Secondary to work with. Keep policy on Balance and that 11 gets boosted to 23 since they always do a Main Expand Economy. This does not even include the overflow or passive income yet.
Everything gets done with room for any surprises that may pop up.
Nope, not nine. 21+12=33. Cap is 27. You get 6 Wealth and end up with 15 for next turn.
I labeled this funny cus it genuinely made me lol.
Also, while there will be "aggressive debating" of the root philosophies, that doesn't mean people won't die, be exiled, be imprisoned. Possibly quite a large number of people.
I kind of want to pick it for the aggressive debating, however.
It might excise Purity from our culture.
Suppressing the puritans while not actually doing shit w/ them might just alter Purity into a different form, or create unrest or a sundering of our population.
I'm assuming the debates are going to with the majority of the populace, with the exiling and killing going towards those with a lot of influence, such as Patricians and Priests.
They are the real power behind the movement, and the ideology should begin to die out once they are no longer spreading it.
Naw, thats Fascism, Nationalism is on the Lord's Loyalty branch where you move the focus from Man To Man loyalty to Man To State loyalty. Fascism is Nationalism fusing Purity to go from "Only Your State and Ethnic Group Matters"
I understand the logic wrt payout, but then we should consider React Scouts.
The point of scouts now is so that we don't bother with them on turn itself.
Look at, say, this plan w/o Scouts: gives us 27 Econ, 17 Wealth, 7 Martial to work with.
Main Dam -2E
Secondary Invite Forchuh -1 Diplo (or -3 if they become GP)
Secondary Raise Army -2E -3W
Secondary Great Annex -2E - done
Whatever (I prefer switch to MP Support to ensure connection to Lowlands via fast Dam, but that's probably not shared by everyone) -? or -6 Econ if Dam
Whatever (maybe another annex even? or plain roads or forests)
Guild Warships -3E, -5W, -3M
Whatever
Whatever
So needs at least 15 Econ, 13 Wealth (to avoid Guild Panic) and 4+ Martial to work with. Cannot do March cause, well, martial. We can spend 12 Econ, 4 Wealth on other actions.
And compare to the one with Scouts aka with Martial enough.
Econ: 24+12-3 = 33/27 = 27/27 and 6 Wealth overflow.
Wealth: 14 -2 (Trade Mission) - 6 (Scouts) + 6 (Overflow) = 12.
Martial: 7 + 3 = 11. And 1 more light cavalry for the total of 4.
Main Great Hall Annex -4E
Secondary Invite Forchuh 0
Secondary March -5M, -2E
Secondary Great Hall Annex -2E - done
Secondary MP Support -6 Econ (or whatever?)
Whatever (maybe another annex even? or plain roads or forests)
Guild Warships -3E, -5W, -3M
Whatever
Whatever
Needs more than 19 Econ, 10 Wealth, 9+ (eats 8) Martial. Means we can safely spend 8 Econ, 2 Wealth on other actions. But accomplishes pretty much the same as the previous one plus March...it does leave us with 3 Martial, which is low, but it also leaves us with a new March, secured sea and 4 light cavalry points.
Scouts being taken does not preclude taking other actions while allowing us to take March. We basically accomplish same things with React Scouts as with React GH but with added March on top of it...at the price of spending some more Econ and Wealth, but still doable with Loyalty pick if we do PSN Expand Econ. Although we'll want Guild cash crops or snail on the turn itself to have money at midturn.
The only con I see is that it leave us at martial 3, but it does found another March and adds another unit of light cavalry, so, with secure sea and East and mercs and advantage in light cavalry we can bonk Highlanders if need be quite well. With almost horde-like swarm of cavalry in plains and 3 mercenary companies + allies in mountains.
edit: math mistake, forgot about Trade Mission HK in Scouts version; makes Wealth 2 points tighter, but not that big a problem.
I prioritize the Annexes because we really need that government reform soon(and not give AN too much fuel to play with "your government is overstretched and about to blow!"), since putting 2 Great Halls in makes it very safe next turn AND gives us the benefits, whatever they are, of those two Great Hall levels. We already got a diplomacy drip. Next level SHOULD give us a Per Palace thing.
Killing is on the table, and innocents will be harmed either way.
Maybe there won't be that many killed, but even best case scenario will have a body count.
And if the things get heated...
Such is law enforcement, especially before modern investigatory tools and recordings. The vast majority of arrests will be made by eyewitness fingering, and no small number of people will take the opportunity to try to stiff someone they hate along the way.
But it works for the following purposes:
-Proving to the Monotheists that our state is serious about their freedom to believe what they want even if we don't share it. This will basically cut off the Highlander attempts to turn our monotheists against us(and with the Trade Mission to spread the word, might actually counter convert back)
-Proving to OUR people that this sort of thing cannot stand. No lynchings. Stabbings should be performed by state sanctioned stabbers.
-Making a big debate which thrusts the Puritans against our other long standing values of charity, acceptance and justice. Admittedly this will be a rigged game because we'd have arrested their best speakers before the debates, but well...limited tools.
I'm assuming the debates are going to with the majority of the populace, with the exiling and killing going towards those with a lot of influence, such as Patricians and Priests.
They are the real power behind the movement, and the ideology should begin to die out once they are no longer spreading it.
I mean, "ringleaders" historically are not strictly those with a lot of factual influence i.e. patricians and priests, but also those with a lot of societal influence, i.e. that crazy man on the corner, the big man on the block, yo momma, etc.
I assume you said "the majority of the populace" as a thing v Patricians & Priests, but... The debates are not going to be with individual members of the populace, because that would be impossible to carry out. It will probably be among priests as a process of refining our orthodoxy and the new instructions will be carried out and spread down. Those priests who are too spit-and-fire will likely be imprisoned &| exiled. Those who actually attacked people will probably be killed. Admittedly, some of the more politically active/religiously fervent members of the populace will likely draw attention and be directly interacted with.
So I agree and disagree. Yeah, Priests are gonna be hit hard, and patricians might be hit somewhat. But that doesn't mean normal folk will avoid the scourge.
Because the March is Useful but not a Problem, while the Loyalty is a big problem, and if we want to avoid losing subordinates this is the single biggest action and stat efficient option to mass fix it in a time of uncertain authority.
It's both expensive and slow to shift loyalty normally, while we're looking at multiple situations which risk loyalty. Heck, failing to take the pirates down decisively cost Loyalty. I don't want such a risk with literal heresy being fought.
I'm assuming the debates are going to with the majority of the populace, with the exiling and killing going towards those with a lot of influence, such as Patricians and Priests.
They are the real power behind the movement, and the ideology should begin to die out once they are no longer spreading it.
Pretty sure we're going to be going the following steps:
-Find troublemakers. Arrest the lynch mobs, interrogate them. We'd probably arrest a bunch of unrelated people in this phase.
-Based on their testimony, we'd arrest a large number of the firebrand priests and patricians sponsoring lynch mobs under the charge of inciting the disruption of public order. This part too will snag some unrelateds.
-Then while they are being held prisoner or sentenced, we launch a nationwide debate on Purity...while their best debaters are in prison or digging shit and being absolutely impure.
-The debates will spur SOME reaction, which would probably cause more chaos and uncertainty that hurts more people as is the way of things.
Because the March is Useful but not a Problem, while the Loyalty is a big problem, and if we want to avoid losing subordinates this is the single biggest action and stat efficient option to mass fix it in a time of uncertain authority.
You seem to be under the impression that I am arguing against spreading the wealth.
I am not.
My concern is the Scouts and Annex vote. I am saying that regardless of Poppies or Expand Econ, we would have enough leeway to finish the 4 annexes next turn, but only Scouts allows us to build the March as well.
I prioritize the Annexes because we really need that government reform soon(and not give AN too much fuel to play with "your government is overstretched and about to blow!"), since putting 2 Great Halls in makes it very safe next turn AND gives us the benefits, whatever they are, of those two Great Hall levels. We already got a diplomacy drip. Next level SHOULD give us a Per Palace thing.
What?
We can do both mate. Look under the spoiler in the post you've quoted. My point is that we can do all annexes if we pick Scouts - while gaining March in the process.
I even posted it after spoiler, not only inside it.
ecause the March is Useful but not a Problem, while the Loyalty is a big problem, and if we want to avoid losing subordinates this is the single biggest action and stat efficient option to mass fix it in a time of uncertain authority.
It's both expensive and slow to shift loyalty normally, while we're looking at multiple situations which risk loyalty. Heck, failing to take the pirates down decisively cost Loyalty. I don't want such a risk with literal heresy being fought.
Due to the low amount of voting before the lock there will be no update tonight. Don't get the thread locked again.
"Root and branch" here refers to a combination of political violence to execute, exile, and physically isolate a number of the major puritan priests and ringleaders while aggressively politically debating and isolating the root philosophies. Innocents and people undeserving of the punishments dealt it well get caught up in the process, but it is not intended to be a frenzied purge, although it could go sideways.
Some of Column A, some of Column B, and some of Column A & B at the same time ("Hey, I heard your cousin got a sweet new deal with all that trade, remember who helped make it a reality").
[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[X] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)
[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
[X] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)
[X] [Ext] Stay home, farm (Main Expand Econ)
[X] [Ext] Keep sending treasure to the Forhuch(Main Targeted Salt Gift)
Such is law enforcement, especially before modern investigatory tools and recordings. The vast majority of arrests will be made by eyewitness fingering, and no small number of people will take the opportunity to try to stiff someone they hate along the way.
Isn't the spirit channel just the entrance to the TS' land? I.e. where the river is? Or is the spirit channel the weird emptiness between our lands? Siv's comment indicated the former. As does the name "Spirit" "Channel"
Isn't the spirit channel just the entrance to the TS' land? I.e. where the river is? Or is the spirit channel the weird emptiness between our lands? Siv's comment indicated the former. As does the name "Spirit" "Channel"
ninja:
