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Paths of Civilization

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[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
 
[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)

Yeah okay upon further review of options, the MP reward is also a close vote and has an obviously better answer between the two highest-voted choices - for crying out loud, getting +1 loyalty on a single subordinate via Influence costs almost twice as many stat points as Trade Excitement gives us. Unless the distribution is skewed wildly toward 0, this is an incredibly efficient option and addresses a problem we're actually having (14 Wealth is plenty to work with when our income is positive, I'm pretty sure). Math people correct me if I'm being dumb here - I have to imagine I'm missing something if Trade Excitement is actually doing at all well in comparison, but I can't see what it is and I'm not willing to assume the thread knows what it's doing.
 
Wiadi said:
[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)

Yeah okay upon further review of options, the MP reward is also a close vote and has an obviously better answer between the two highest-voted choices - for crying out loud, getting +1 loyalty on a single subordinate via Influence costs almost twice as many stat points as Trade Excitement gives us. Unless the distribution is skewed wildly toward 0, this is an incredibly efficient option and addresses a problem we're actually having (14 Wealth is plenty to work with when our income is positive, I'm pretty sure). Math people correct me if I'm being dumb here - I have to imagine I'm missing something if Trade Excitement is actually doing at all well in comparison, but I can't see what it is and I'm not willing to assume the thread knows what it's doing.
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Well the thing is people are also thinking about next turn actions and have realized we would need wealth to get everything they are planning for.

Both options make sense on that regard.
 
[X] [MP] Trade Excitement (+10 Wealth, +1 Stability from Guild demands)
[X] [Int] Crack down on the puritans (-2 Intrigue, -1 to +1 Stability, ???)
 
Wiadi said:
[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)

Yeah okay upon further review of options, the MP reward is also a close vote and has an obviously better answer between the two highest-voted choices - for crying out loud, getting +1 loyalty on a single subordinate via Influence costs almost twice as many stat points as Trade Excitement gives us. Unless the distribution is skewed wildly toward 0, this is an incredibly efficient option and addresses a problem we're actually having (14 Wealth is plenty to work with when our income is positive, I'm pretty sure). Math people correct me if I'm being dumb here - I have to imagine I'm missing something if Trade Excitement is actually doing at all well in comparison, but I can't see what it is and I'm not willing to assume the thread knows what it's doing.
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Mostly that some want to get Econ and Wealth as high as possible to pay for all the other shit besides influences that we want to do, with an influence on top, at least for me. And don't trust anything which isn't a certainty, and want the stability to counteract the root and branch option.

Based on Expand Econ and Trade Excitement we get to 24+12-1-4 = 31 Econ which turns into 27/27 econ with +4 overflow to wealth. That means wealth enters the main turn at 14+10+4 = 28 with +1 into Diplo, so +5 into Martial. Puts us at 11 {39/39} IIRC and then the Mercs unhook before we have a problem so we drop down in {} Martial and don't suffer martial overrun. And everything is capped and we can spend on whatever the heck we may want.

I don't mind though whichever of Spread or Excitement wins so long as Expand Econ does.
 
Killer_Whale said:
The biggest planed wealth spend is influence for loyalty, but we have more wealth left from getting the loyalty from spreading around.
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Main Influence is -3 Wealth.
Main More Warships which we need to do next turn to finish the Trader Quest and head off future Storm People problems is -5 Wealth.
Various Guild actions like Kilns cost wealth.
More Spiritbonded to prepare for horse archers is another -5 Wealth.

So to be a bit more specific we have a few places.
 
[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[X] [React] Expand Great Hall (2xGreat Hall Annexes)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)
 
BungieONI said:
Mostly that some want to get Econ and Wealth as high as possible to pay for all the other shit besides influences that we want to do, with an influence on top, at least for me. And don't trust anything which isn't a certainty, and want the stability to counteract the root and branch option.

Based on Expand Econ and Trade Excitement we get to 24+12-1-4 = 31 Econ which turns into 27/27 econ with +4 overflow to wealth. That means wealth enters the main turn at 14+10+4 = 28 with +1 into Diplo, so +5 into Martial. Puts us at 11 {39/39} IIRC and then the Mercs unhook before we have a problem so we drop down in {} Martial and don't suffer martial overrun. And everything is capped and we can spend on whatever the heck we may want.

I don't mind though whichever of Spread or Excitement wins so long as Expand Econ does.
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Okay, but if we're planning on taking Influence anyway, then assuming only a single at-risk subordinate would get +1 Loyalty (of which we have 3, by my recollection, so that'd translate to a 1/3 chance of loyalty gain on average) we're effectively spending 8 stat points to gain a single point of Stability. That...doesn't seem worthwhile, since we'll only be dropping to 2 Stability anyway. Especially considering that if we take Root and Branch, we'll want to Proclaim Glory to get our Legitimacy back up - at which point we'll be back to 3/4 Stability even if we only use a Secondary and didn't take Trade Excitement. Making it a Main PG instead would only cost 4 (instead of 8) stat points and also guarantee us a point of Prestige, and I don't think that's the most efficient way to get back to 4/4 either.

Basically it just looks like we're wasting an awful lot of resources to avoid a little bit of uncertainty, which seems a bit overly cautious.
 
[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)

Fine... at the end of the day, trying to get our subordinates happy seems the go-to choice.

[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
 
Wiadi said:
wasting an awful lot of resources to avoid a little bit of uncertainty, which seems a bit overly cautious.
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And thus you find a motto for a good chunk of the thread.

*shrug*


Aside from that though this is future planning, of which the influence is one part. They trade a large chunk of our potentially gained subordinate loyalty (which some don't trust they will gain in numbers high enough to judge worth it) for the stats to do whatever the feck they want to which ends up being some combination of, dropping one or two based on personal preference: More Warships, More Ponies, Dam, Great Hall, March, Raise Army(not quite needed with Martial overflow), Docks, Kilns, Great Hall Annex, LVL 2 Temple, and Influence. Not all of them since we have not enough actions, but most of them. And then Golden Age at that point is a step away.

Where as with a spread the wealth around they only have 16 wealth and maxed Econ to work with, have pretty happy subordinates, and thus only have 7 Martial, which necessitates taking a Raise Army if they do a March OR Warships OR Ponies(They can only do one of these) since order of ops can screw us into damaging the BB's, and then Docks + Kilns + Influence for around -5 which at that point is one off from inciting Guild panic. Then wealth and every other income comes in.
 
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[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[X] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)
 
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[X] [MP] Trade Excitement (+10 Wealth, +1 Stability from Guild demands)
[X] [Int] Crack down on the puritans (-2 Intrigue, -1 to +1 Stability, ???)
[X] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)
 
[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[X] [React] Expand Great Hall (2xGreat Hall Annexes)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)
 
veekie said:
Point, editing to econ.
MP payout is still inferior to the loyalty boost though, since we can afford to delay the March a turn(but not two turns)
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I understand the logic wrt payout, but then we should consider React Scouts.

The point of scouts now is so that we don't bother with them on turn itself.
Look at, say, this plan w/o Scouts: gives us 27 Econ, 17 Wealth, 7 Martial to work with.

Main Dam -2E
Secondary Invite Forchuh -1 Diplo (or -3 if they become GP)
Secondary Raise Army -2E -3W
Secondary Great Annex -2E - done
Whatever (I prefer switch to MP Support to ensure connection to Lowlands via fast Dam, but that's probably not shared by everyone) -? or -6 Econ if Dam
Whatever (maybe another annex even? or plain roads or forests)

Guild Warships -3E, -5W, -3M
Whatever
Whatever

So needs at least 15 Econ, 13 Wealth (to avoid Guild Panic) and 4+ Martial to work with. Cannot do March cause, well, martial. We can spend 12 Econ, 4 Wealth on other actions.

And compare to the one with Scouts aka with Martial enough.
Econ: 24+12-3 = 33/27 = 27/27 and 6 Wealth overflow.
Wealth: 14 -2 (Trade Mission) - 6 (Scouts) + 6 (Overflow) = 12.
Martial: 7 + 3 = 11. And 1 more light cavalry for the total of 4.

Main Great Hall Annex -4E
Secondary Invite Forchuh 0
Secondary March -5M, -2E
Secondary Great Hall Annex -2E - done
Secondary MP Support -6 Econ (or whatever?)
Whatever (maybe another annex even? or plain roads or forests)

Guild Warships -3E, -5W, -3M
Whatever
Whatever

Needs more than 19 Econ, 10 Wealth, 9+ (eats 8) Martial. Means we can safely spend 8 Econ, 2 Wealth on other actions. But accomplishes pretty much the same as the previous one plus March...it does leave us with 3 Martial, which is low, but it also leaves us with a new March, secured sea and 4 light cavalry points.

Scouts being taken does not preclude taking other actions while allowing us to take March. We basically accomplish same things with React Scouts as with React GH but with added March on top of it...at the price of spending some more Econ and Wealth, but still doable with Loyalty pick if we do PSN Expand Econ. Although we'll want Guild cash crops or snail on the turn itself to have money at midturn.
The only con I see is that it leave us at martial 3, but it does found another March and adds another unit of light cavalry, so, with secure sea and East and mercs and advantage in light cavalry we can bonk Highlanders if need be quite well. With almost horde-like swarm of cavalry in plains and 3 mercenary companies + allies in mountains.

edit: math mistake, forgot about Trade Mission HK in Scouts version; makes Wealth 2 points tighter, but not that big a problem.
 
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Come to think of it, with recent WoAN, I am fiine with narrative of spreading the wealth.

[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[X] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)
 
Wiadi said:
Basically it just looks like we're wasting an awful lot of resources to avoid a little bit of uncertainty, which seems a bit overly cautious.
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Golden Ages are freaking amazing. Narratively, they're unifying since everyone is happy. Mechanically, the sheer stat income they provide is also rather ridiculous, and many of the innovations are extremely valuable.

If we had gone with the extra wealth last turn we would've been fine since we'd be at 4/3 and a. -1 wouldn't cause any problems. We didn't, so we should take the Trade Excitement so that we stay at 3/3 and start getting those bonuses.
 
[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[X] [React] Expand Great Hall (2xGreat Hall Annexes)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)
 
[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
 
Got to say: I think I know how an average, uneducated voter might feel like.
Here are all those economic and strategic decisions severely affecting the state of the country, put forward by what we could call elected (by popularity and self-appointed duty) representatives based upon knowledge that's outside of my expertise (or even fundamental understanding of math and mechanics ruling them).
I could, like any other voter (quest or no quest), learn those rules with enough effort. Except I don't wanna- lazy or not engaged enough, result is the same.
So not gonna vote on those, because I am not seeing my judgment as better than thread's average.

And then there's the single moral choice, controversial and simple to understand.
[] [Int] Crack down on the puritans (-2 Intrigue, -1 to +1 Stability, ???)
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
Frankly, I want to see it fail. Not because I wish anyone ill luck, but merely because I am morbidly fascinated by the prospect of it worsening or at least redirecting the Purity trait in equally wrong direction.
Also, and probably the true cause for my desire, it feels morally repugnant. Like stooping to the level of neo-nazis by going to their houses and shooting down their families, while simultaneously starting an 'All beliefs are equal!' (or some other equally liberal name) campaign.
You could say I wish for this decision to be punished, except I still think it's for the best, logically.
 
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