At the cost of not doing anything about our subordinates.

Not worth it.
War is far more efficient at fixing the loyalty issues we've seen. And it looks like the nomads are likely to come storming in within a couple turns, putting us in a good place to help our subordinates by fighting off the nomads. Even if the nomads don't come at us quite yet, it's looking likely that some fight's gonna break out soon what with the Highland Kingdom acting the way they are and everything else that's going on right now.

The subordinate problem certainly isn't solved yet, but a defensive war on their territory is virtually guaranteed to fix the problem (so long as we win) and it looks like that's gonna be happening within a few turns.
 
But Loyalty is still Loyalty. A Loyal subordinate makes the subsequent turns far easier on us. We know the loose loyalty thresholds by now:
-Loyalty 5 - Will actively work towards our goals as best as they can imagine and avoid causing trouble.
-Loyalty 4 - Will cooperate with our goals and avoid causing trouble.
-Loyalty 3 - May cause trouble. Primarily self interested.
-Loyalty 2 - This is the point where they consider joining a rebellion or breaking away if their dependency is low.
-Loyalty 1 - This is where they will actively cause trouble to see what they can get away with..

Now observe:
-Red Banner L 3/5 -> 4/5
-Dragon Banner L 4/5 -> 5/5
-Blood Rain Banner 3/5 -> 4/5

These guys aren't critical, they'd get back to full eventually. However, going to war, which looks increasingly likely, with our companies at wavering loyalty is a great way to have them go rogue if we send them into another meat grinder.

Which we would invariably have to.

-Western Wall L 3/5 -> 4/5
-Greenshore L 2/5 -> 3/5
-Tinriver L 2/5 -> 3/5

This takes the colonies out of the range where they'd even consider a rebellion if we fail to promptly deal with their problems.
We STILL want to influence them, but it buys time. Because you can bet the next time there is a crisis they'd drop another point. I'd rather this drop be from 3/5 to 2/5 rather than 2/5 to 1/5.

We do not have the stats to do so, we do not have the actions to do so either. It's practically certain that if we trigger a Golden Age(which we would if we took the Wealth), we won't Influence them either because that'd end the Golden Age.
We still need to rebuild our military, we still need to rush out another megaproject and a whole bevy of annexes and extended projects.

So in what way is the 10 Wealth and +1 Stability comparable to using this megaproject bonus to buy our way out of one of the many crisis we're juggling?

In the "it allows us to insta build all we want next turn".
Cavalry now? Sure.
Warships? Yes.
Main Influence to slamdunk Ymarynization with loyalty on top? Go ahead.
Golden Age? Guaranteed.

Meanwhile, we have no guarantee of +Loalty from that, and have no reason to assume it affects culture.

Basically, look at actions this turn and try to math out plan for the next turn which goes with it. With +Wealth we can finish...pretty much 4 different projects: March, Dam (MP support), Senate, Warships.
Please use concrete plan for next turn and look at math there. Coupling this vote with 'its' vote for next turn is beneficial for planning.



And another matter. Expand Econ here will, for example, givr us ~5 Wealth from overflow, so it's almost as good as cash crops while topping off Econ.
 
War is far more efficient at fixing the loyalty issues we've seen. And it looks like the nomads are likely to come storming in within a couple turns, putting us in a good place to help our subordinates by fighting off the nomads. Even if the nomads don't come at us quite yet, it's looking likely that some fight's gonna break out soon what with the Highland Kingdom acting the way they are and everything else that's going on right now.

The subordinate problem certainly isn't solved yet, but a defensive war on their territory is virtually guaranteed to fix the problem (so long as we win) and it looks like that's gonna be happening within a few turns.
Highlanders are physically unable to hit any of them. Also nomads could simply hit us directly, cause our they arnt between them and us.
 
In the "it allows us to insta build all we want next turn".
Cavalry now? Sure.
Warships? Yes.
Main Influence to slamdunk Ymarynization with loyalty on top? Go ahead.
Golden Age? Guaranteed.

Meanwhile, we have no guarantee of +Loalty from that, and have no reason to assume it affects culture.

Basically, look at actions this turn and try to math out plan for the next turn which goes with it. With +Wealth we can finish...pretty much 4 different projects: March, Dam (MP support), Senate, Warships.
Please use concrete plan for next turn and look at math there. Coupling this vote with 'its' vote for next turn is beneficial for planning.



And another matter. Expand Econ here will, for example, givr us ~5 Wealth from overflow, so it's almost as good as cash crops while topping off Econ.
Which is what the Poppies are for. Grabbing Poppies and Scouts gives us sufficient Martial and Economy to deal with those four projects.

That in turn leaves the action free to influence our subordinates.
 
War is far more efficient at fixing the loyalty issues we've seen. And it looks like the nomads are likely to come storming in within a couple turns, putting us in a good place to help our subordinates by fighting off the nomads. Even if the nomads don't come at us quite yet, it's looking likely that some fight's gonna break out soon what with the Highland Kingdom acting the way they are and everything else that's going on right now.

The subordinate problem certainly isn't solved yet, but a defensive war on their territory is virtually guaranteed to fix the problem (so long as we win) and it looks like that's gonna be happening within a few turns.
Except no, the war bonus to loyalty is only a +1 out of a needed +3 and, we have learned that it depends on winning or at least succeeding at the war. Consider how the western colonies didn't give a shit while we fought the nomads to the east.

Furthermore, we're looking at potential war from four fronts:
-West - The Storm Tribes will be revolving around soon.
-South - The Highland Kingdom has done as it always did in history and setting up to attack.
-East - The settled nomads are tentatively at peace, but may yet turn hostile once their Hero dies if we don't finish the canal by then(we are unlikely to).
-North - Horse nomads exist.

If one of them happens, we can expect to gain +1 to +0 loyalty depending on the front of engagement.
If two of them happens we can expect to lose Loyalty because one side is going to need to burn.

And you forget that war makes the loyalty of the Banners drop. Very quickly at that.

In the "it allows us to insta build all we want next turn".
Cavalry now? Sure.
Warships? Yes.
Main Influence to slamdunk Ymarynization with loyalty on top? Go ahead.
Golden Age? Guaranteed.

Meanwhile, we have no guarantee of +Loalty from that, and have no reason to assume it affects culture.

Basically, look at actions this turn and try to math out plan for the next turn which goes with it. With +Wealth we can finish...pretty much 4 different projects: March, Dam (MP support), Senate, Warships.
Please use concrete plan for next turn and look at math there. Coupling this vote with 'its' vote for next turn is beneficial for planning.



And another matter. Expand Econ here will, for example, givr us ~5 Wealth from overflow, so it's almost as good as cash crops while topping off Econ.
6 instances of +0-1 Loyalty is pretty much at least as good as 6 Support Subordinates.
No, it won't necessarily affect culture, that's up to @Academia Nut to explain how it narratively bolsters Loyalty. But it's not a replacement for that. We're short something like 3 Main Influences just to get them on track...and culture drift being fixed doesn't stop low Loyalty from being a problem. 3 Main influences still leaves us with 5 more points of Loyalty we need to dig up from somewhere.

Anyways, got a meeting, so I'll leave it for now.
 
Which is what the Poppies are for. Grabbing Poppies and Scouts gives us sufficient Martial and Economy to deal with those four projects.

That in turn leaves the action free to influence our subordinates.

Poppies give 7 wealth for 3 Econ, while Expand Econ gives, again: 24+12-4 (both Annex and Scouts cost same Econ) = 32/27 = 27/27 and 5...

Expand Econ here defacto gives 5 Wealth and 7 Econ, while Poppies give 7 Weath at the cost of 3 Econ.

Are those 2 more Wealth worth it?
 
Poppies give 7 wealth for 3 Econ, while Expand Econ gives, again: 24+12-4 (both Annex and Scouts cost same Econ) = 32/27 = 27/27 and 5...

Expand Econ here defacto gives 5 Wealth and 7 Econ, while Poppies give 7 Weath at the cost of 3 Econ.

Are those 2 more Wealth worth it?
Considering it is six potential shots of Loyalty? Heck yeah it is.

Minor nitpick, but Scouts cost 1 less Econ :p
 
-East - The settled nomads are tentatively at peace, but may yet turn hostile once their Hero dies if we don't finish the canal by then(we are unlikely to).

I think we should definitely invite them to the games next turn. It will buy us time for the canal to finish and we know they're likely to accept. Another time-sensitive choice, I guess...
 
Considering it is six potential shots of Loyalty? Heck yeah it is.

Minor nitpick, but Scouts cost 1 less Econ :p
Wat

Expand Econ is PSN action, I aint arguing about MP reward one.

With AN confirming it's more than just bribes, I am kinda fine with it. Not voting for it yet, need to check math again, but it looks better with having narrative of "actually helps everyone". Guess yiu were closer the truth than I (although bribes still are a thing ofc).

Edit: oh, and thanks for correcting math.
 
So in other news, i got sucked back into being addicted to EU4; if you want to avoid that fate, i suggest not trying the Common Universalis mod, cause its really really good :p

So A&D post will wait for tomorrow, but here's diffs:
Diff Checker
Diff Checker
Highlights:
-Reformers did apply to Grand Bazaar; thats why tech is 8 points higher than my projected stats. This means 1. that reformers is now at its baseline of 1/4th refund for however many more projects and 2. that Grand Bazaar was worth about 24 stats, give or take rounding.
-Concrete!!!! =D I'll save my true excitement for the A&D post tomorrow (when i'm awake enough to express excitement :p)
-Religious settlement's temple does fully count for our RA, so we should be cautious of that
-Grand hall x3 gave us a +1 diplo/turn drip.

I'll look at math for votes tomorrow, but for now i think i'll vote for this at least:
[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
 
I think we should definitely invite them to the games next turn. It will buy us time for the canal to finish and we know they're likely to accept. Another time-sensitive choice, I guess...
Slotting that in then. At least games invites are cheap. Assuming we don't need another emergency Influence
-Concrete!!!! =D I'll save my true excitement for the A&D post tomorrow (when i'm awake enough to express excitement :p)
It's REALLY amazing, though it depends on WHICH concrete formula we're using.

What we know of this recipe:
-It's made from material leftover from glassmaking(which is pretty broad, since we used calcinated bones to make the lime to flux out the detritus to make aqua glass, and then there is the high variety of sand stock).
-It's useful in aquatic constructions somehow, so it's water resistant once set, though it need not necessarily set wet(also we lack the volcanic ash to make that type of concrete).

Which tells me what we have: a Portland Cement variant based concrete, made from fine furnace ash and we're probably adding crushed slag from the iron smelters for strength and corrosion resistance.

It's important because unlike stone or brick constructions, concrete can be properly poured and moulded so as to present no internal flaws, allowing for vastly stronger supporting arches and buttresses(owing to being able to actually determine the true maximum load consistently) for the main structure.

...it's also important because uh...making it requires a lot of fuel to cook the lime, especially from bone rather than limestones(though the ash and slag don't, since we don't use the ash for anything else) if we want to use a lot of it.
-Grand hall x3 gave us a +1 diplo/turn drip.
Also we knew this back when the Palace was first built. :)
 
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[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[X] [React] Expand Great Hall (2xGreat Hall Annexes)
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Cotton (-2 Cent + Costs)

Given GM clarification I no longer think root and branch imperils greater justice.
 
[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[X] [React] Expand Great Hall (2xGreat Hall Annexes)
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Cotton (-2 Cent + Costs)

Given GM clarification I no longer think root and branch imperils greater justice.
Expand Econ: leaves us with 27/27 Econ, 17 Wealth by Main turn.

Plant Cotton: leaves us with 16 Econ, 19 Wealth by Main turn.

Please look at math of Cotton, math of Expand Econ with overflow, and think whether 2 more wealth is more important than 11 more Econ.

Also, without taking either Scouts reaction or Wealth MP payout we will not be able to do March+Warships next turn.
 
Point, editing to econ.
MP payout is still inferior to the loyalty boost though, since we can afford to delay the March a turn(but not two turns)
 
[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[X] [React] Expand Great Hall (2xGreat Hall Annexes)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)
 
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)

Paradox of Tolerance. That is all.
 
I am somewhat leery of doing the maniac-purge at this moment after some clarifications from the GM.

I would want to know the stats of our current King to know what we are working with here - but since there hasn't given anything on that, I find myself unwilling to vote for anything.
 
I am somewhat leery of doing the maniac-purge at this moment after some clarifications from the GM.

I would want to know the stats of our current King to know what we are working with here - but since there hasn't given anything on that, I find myself unwilling to vote for anything.

Do remember that we have both the Academy and Philosopher Kings increasing our king's stats, and our government model makes the chance of an idiot king "Very Rare" (plus if we had one the narrative probably would have noted it). So lacking any further information, we can and should assume our king to be reasonably competent on the weight of probability alone. He's no Genius, but I expect that the odds of things going irretrievably sideways is low.

The thing about the risk evaluation here is that we have to consider the consequences of not doing the purge as well. In my view, a small chance of a frenetic purge is worth removing a much larger chance that our crackdown just drives the Puritans underground. If we don't deal with them conclusively, their toxic ideology will be permitted to continue to fester, potentially returning to prominence in times of conflict - it offers its adherents someone easy to blame for their troubles, and so will be increasingly popular as those troubles multiply.
 
I am somewhat leery of doing the maniac-purge at this moment after some clarifications from the GM.

I would want to know the stats of our current King to know what we are working with here - but since there hasn't given anything on that, I find myself unwilling to vote for anything.
Under our government model, the baseline average king is Average across the board, except for Mysticism, which is normally zero. The Palace Shrine 1 + Library changed Mysticism to Mediocre base. The Palace Shrine 2 did not have it stated, but may have moved it up to Below Average.

Then apply Academy, which raises everything one step and we should have:
-Martial Good
-Diplomacy Good
-Admin Good
-Mysticism Below Average or Average


On the typical King.
So what stats are challenged here?
-Find the ringleaders and actual thugs, arrest them so they can't keep poisoning the well. This is long known to be an Admin roll.
-Instituting theological debate is a Mysticism roll, though traditionally any King only uses his Mysticism to pick out priests who seem to know their business for this work.
-Actual debate to sell the outcome to the public is a Diplomacy roll

...but not trying at all probably will only push the problem for later, entrench it, or find more legal ways to bully minorities
 
[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)

I don't have time or the will to go through the thread. This is the most important choice here. Disloyal vassals cause problems. Lots of them. We have an easier way of making those problems not happen.

[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[X] [React] Expand Great Hall (2xGreat Hall Annexes)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)
 
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We're currently 2 Diplo, 3 Econ, and 8 Wealth away from overflow, for 13 stats needed. We've got (+8) incoming stats from previous refunds.

Trade Excitement is +10 stats.
Great Hall x2 is -8 stats.
Main Trade Mission is -3 stats. (with +2 to +6 later on)
Expand Econ is +8 stats (with +4 later on)

To sum it up, 8+10-8-3+8 = 15, so we overflow only 2 martial, putting us at 9.
Found March costs 5 Martial, {M} More Warships costs 3. This totals to 8.

That's just enough to let us get the Warships and March without immediate problems. We will be reliant upon our mercs and subordinates while we recover our martial again (because sitting at 1 is definitely not safe) but it should be ok because we'll be overflowing into Martial during the main turn unless Balanced some something really unexpected.
I must note that this hinges on us not going to war against the neighborly crusading jackasses next turn.
 
Under our government model, the baseline average king is Average across the board, except for Mysticism, which is normally zero. The Palace Shrine 1 + Library changed Mysticism to Mediocre base. The Palace Shrine 2 did not have it stated, but may have moved it up to Below Average.

Then apply Academy, which raises everything one step and we should have:
-Martial Good
-Diplomacy Good
-Admin Good
-Mysticism Below Average or Average


On the typical King.
So what stats are challenged here?
-Find the ringleaders and actual thugs, arrest them so they can't keep poisoning the well. This is long known to be an Admin roll.
-Instituting theological debate is a Mysticism roll, though traditionally any King only uses his Mysticism to pick out priests who seem to know their business for this work.
-Actual debate to sell the outcome to the public is a Diplomacy roll

...but not trying at all probably will only push the problem for later, entrench it, or find more legal ways to bully minorities

Don't forget Philosopher Kings, which also applies an (unspecified) buff to leader stats (bolding mine):
Philosopher Kings (Maxed Development)
Through intellect and careful testing of the world, the People have developed a love of knowledge and learning, and expect their leaders to follow suit.
Pros: Majorly improved use of study actions and innovation rolls, improved leader skill sets
Cons: Question social foundations, -1 Wealth per turn
 
Also remember the scale:

non-existant->awful->poor->mediocre->average->above average->good->exceptional->heroic
 
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