It also means that we could lose the debates to the puritans. Which would lead to what exactly?
So what's your alternative solution then? Crack Down won't change the trait on its own, and only delays the issue to next time. What do you suggest we do?

Plus, do you really think our religious doctrine is so weak? Our king mentioned he was easily able to trip up the Puritans because their logic was pretty screwy. That is not the sign of a group that does well in debates.
I imagine it would be quite difficult for our respected and knowledgeable Heroic Mystic King to lose a religious debate as well, since Heros can't fail actions of their specialty.
Hero king is dead.
 
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Are those the numbers you didn't correct for when you thought that Main Expand Economy only gives us 6 econ?
Those numbers were without any Expand Economy at all. That was my point. We would not need an Expand Economy project.
I am not saying it's nothing. I'm saying the rewards are uncertain.

If all the loyalty boosts go to the mercs and our colonies get none, for example, then it's almost a wasted action, because the mercenaries will start singing a very different tune once we start paying them properly.


We are headed into a multinational crisis and a religious crisis, and we are dropping Stability this turn. It does not need immediate attention, but playing safe with Stability is always a good idea if you see trouble on the horizon.
...We have been paying our mercenaries properly. Where did you get the idea that we were not?

The reason they lost loyalty was that we threw them at the nomads and the were de-stroyed. On top of that they were gaining Martial outside of our core region which means that part of the forces were not loyal to Ymaryn proper
 
Losing the debates to Puritans would lead to Purity staying as a widespread belief of the Ymaryn. Something that it already is.
I imagine it would be quite difficult for our respected and knowledgeable Heroic Mystic King to lose a religious debate as well, since Heros can't fail actions of their specialty.

If we do win the debates, however, which I am confident that we will, then it gets rid of a toxic ideology within the People.
The Root and Branch option is basically AN throwing us a bone and letting us get rid of Purity before it becomes too ingrained into the culture of the Ymaryn.
Pretty sure Uvo is dead. Since they were referencing his memory in the update, and that we got to choose the actions update before last.

While some of the One God followers had expressed interest, the same agents that had caught onto the puritan priests had also caught onto these foreign agents, and the memory of Uvothyn was still fresh and many of those affected by his efforts were of the opinion that their single God was a universal deity rather than the god of the Highlanders and thus saw no theological problems with siding with the People rather than the Highlanders.
 
I found the quote from AN on purity being harmed by certain actions:
Fight the priests preaching it, take in more people, de-emphasize elitist attitudes...

Basically take shitload of actions that ding RA and Legitimacy over the next while.
So I am certain this proves my point. Specially the 'shitload' part. Because if it's going to take so many, we better start piling them on early.

And while our mystic hero king is dead, he's still in living memory, and one of his great works was fixing the enclaves mess peacefully.

Except for chocking out that one guy, but it was over improper farming so everyone understands, and the fact that he didn't kill them after discovering how far they'd fallen into their poor farming ways is clearly an example of the ancient Ymaryn ways of acceptance.
Adhoc vote count started by 065tdsa on Nov 9, 2017 at 10:59 AM, finished with 472 posts and 78 votes.
 
Man, what if the puritans end up becoming what we're trying to stop the monotheists from becoming? That is, the marginalized and ostracized minority that everyone blames for their woes?

What if they become the historical Jews of the People?

Truly Crow is the master of mockery, the puppeteer of puppeteers, the trickster of tricksters, the lego to one's eggo, PRAISE BE UNTO HIM.
 
[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
[X] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Forests (-2 Cent + Costs)
 
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I found the quote from AN on purity being harmed by certain actions:
It should be noted that AN was actually talking about how to strengthen PiA against the damaging effects of Purity here.
The king thinks that the new fervour for purity may begin eroding traditional mores about accepting others.

What would he suggest for strengthening the traditional values?
Fight the priests preaching it, take in more people, de-emphasize elitist attitudes...

Basically take shitload of actions that ding RA and Legitimacy over the next while.
I mean, the difference is slight really, but we should keep in mind that the Mystic hero king's advice was towards keeping PiA, not destroying purity.
 
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It should be noted that AN was actually talking about how to strengthen PiA against the damaging effects of Purity here.



I mean, the difference is slight really, but we should keep in mind that the Mystic hero king's advice was towards keeping PiA, not destroying purity.
And yet he says 'fight the priests preaching it'. Where it clearly means Purity. To strengthen PiA, Purity must be fought, they are anathema to each other.
 
Man, what if the puritans end up becoming what we're trying to stop the monotheists from becoming? That is, the marginalized and ostracized minority that everyone blames for their woes?

What if they become the historical Jews of the People?

Truly Crow is the master of mockery, the puppeteer of puppeteers, the trickster of tricksters, the lego to one's eggo, PRAISE BE UNTO HIM.
They are a sect of the main religion, whose beliefs are based on the idea that they Ymaryn, as a whole, are superior to everyone else. So:

1. Unless they somehow get a common identity, they can't become something like the jews
2. They are racist assholes who were noted as killing or assaulting people they disagreed with, so idgaf if they do get ostracised.
And yet he says 'fight the priests preaching it'. Where it clearly means Purity. To strengthen PiA, Purity must be fought, they are anathema to each other.
Yeah, as I said the distinction is small, but it is something to keep in mind.
 
[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
[X] [React] Expand Great Hall (2xGreat Hall Annexes)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[] [PSN] Main Expand Forests (-2 Cent + Costs)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)

If the vote's this contentious now, I can't imagine how painstaking the Modern-day votes will be like... *shiver*
 
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Man, what if the puritans end up becoming what we're trying to stop the monotheists from becoming? That is, the marginalized and ostracized minority that everyone blames for their woes?

What if they become the historical Jews of the People?

Truly Crow is the master of mockery, the puppeteer of puppeteers, the trickster of tricksters, the lego to one's eggo, PRAISE BE UNTO HIM.
They can't. That's the bad part of being a racist asshole, you can't afford to become a refugee. Unless they migrate away to some early stone age territory where they can kill everyone and forge an empire of their own through bullshit luck.

But if that happens they aren't the Jews, they are the fucking Draka. And I trust AN not to write that.
 
Let me see if I can explain further why I want scouts and poppies this vote.

Start with this
Economy 24/27 [+5-0]
Wealth 14/22 [+3]

This wins:
[] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded)
[] [PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)

Ends with this

Economy 22
Wealth 16-18
Martial 11

Next turn

[Main] Dam
[Secondary] Found March
[Secondary] Annex - Great Hall
[Secondary] Annex - Great Hall x2
[Secondary] Temple - Horse Valley
[Guild] More Warships

Patrician quest 75% Done
Priest Quest Done
Trader Quest Done

End stats with:
Economy 11
Wealth 11-13
Martial 3
Navy 4
Light Cavalry 4

and still leaves two more Secondaries, a Guild Main and Guild Secondary to work with. Keep policy on Balance and that 11 gets boosted to 23 since they always do a Main Expand Economy. This does not even include the overflow or passive income yet.

Everything gets done with room for any surprises that may pop up.
You realize that Expand Economy overflows directly into Wealth, right? We're talking 9 spare econ here by your numbers, converted straight to wealth.
Nope, not nine. 21+12=33. Cap is 27. You get 6 Wealth and end up with 15 for next turn.
 
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...We have been paying our mercenaries properly. Where did you get the idea that we were not?

The reason they lost loyalty was that we threw them at the nomads and the were de-stroyed. On top of that they were gaining Martial outside of our core region which means that part of the forces were not loyal to Ymaryn proper
Front page says -0 Wealth for unit costs. I'm not sure what else that could mean other than not paying our mercenary companies, although I admit I haven't been paying particularly close attention to them and could be wrong about that.

If you're right that we're paying them properly, that doesn't really change my argument very much, because then the problem will probably resolve itself quickly as their effectiveness fills up again. Our mercenary companies' loyalty has gone down before, but unlike our other subordinates, they're implicitly dependent upon us and close to home, which makes raising loyalty easier.
 
[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
[X] [React] Expand Great Hall (2xGreat Hall Annexes)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Forests (-2 Cent + Costs)

If the vote's this contentious now, I can't imagine how painstaking the Modern-day votes will be like... *shiver*
*poke*

Generally speaking, we will have 17 Econ and 12 Wealth in the main turn next turn if we go with this. That is edging really close to not enough to get everything we want done, done. Mostly Warships and more ponies, and in general our military outlook. If we grab an expand econ instead of the Forests though we get to full Econ and Wealth, with no over flow to martial from there at least.

We'd probably want to unhook a merc company though. And we also may not need to care since we have 15 incoming from the Mystic Trio inbetween next main turn and mid turn, which feeds into diplo and then wealth. *shrug* I need to think about it more.
 
Front page says -0 Wealth for unit costs. I'm not sure what else that could mean other than not paying our mercenary companies, although I admit I haven't been paying particularly close attention to them and could be wrong about that.

If you're right that we're paying them properly, that doesn't really change my argument very much, because then the problem will probably resolve itself quickly as their effectiveness fills up again. Our mercenary companies' loyalty has gone down before, but unlike our other subordinates, they're implicitly dependent upon us and close to home, which makes raising loyalty easier.
It costs 0 Wealth because we are paying them directly from our Martial budget. They still get paid, we just have to include it in our actual Martial Score and we cannot spend it.

That still gives us six rolls to recieve +1 Loyalty. Unless you believe we are just going to absolutely bomb six different rolls, it is rather pessimistic to think that nothing will come of it.
*poke*

Generally speaking, we will have 17 Econ and 12 Wealth in the main turn next turn if we go with this. That is edging really close to not enough to get everything we want done, done. Mostly Warships and more ponies, and in general our military outlook. If we grab an expand econ instead of the Forests though we get to full Econ and Wealth, with no over flow to martial from there at least.

We'd probably want to unhook a merc company though. And we also may not need to care since we have 15 incoming from the Mystic Trio inbetween next main turn and mid turn, which feeds into diplo and then wealth. *shrug* I need to think about it more.
Maybe I can persuade you to switch to scouts? :)
 
Let me see if I can explain further why I want scouts and poppies this vote.

Start with this
Economy 24/27 [+5-0]
Wealth 14/22 [+3]

This wins:
[] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded)
[] [PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)

Ends with this

Economy 22
Wealth 16-18
Martial 11

Next turn

[Main] Dam
[Secondary] Found March
[Secondary] Annex - Great Hall
[Secondary] Annex - Great Hall x2
[Secondary] Temple - Horse Valley
[Guild] More Warships

Patrician quest 75% Done
Priest Quest Done
Trader Quest Done

End stats with:
Economy 11
Wealth 11-13
Martial 3
Navy 4
Light Cavalry 4

and still leaves two more Secondaries, a Guild Main and Guild Secondary to work with. Keep policy on Balance and that 11 gets boosted to 23 since they always do a Main Expand Economy. This does not even include the overflow or passive income yet.

Everything gets done with room for any surprises that may pop up.

Nope, not nine. 21+12=33. Cap is 27. You get 6 Wealth and end up with 15 for next turn.
Don't need to build 2 Great Hall annexes next turn.
We already have 1/4, and winning vote is having us build 2 more right now.
So we only need to build one Great Hall Annex next turn.
 
[X] [MP] Trade Excitement (+10 Wealth, +1 Stability from Guild demands)
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
[X] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Forests (-2 Cent + Costs)
 
So what's your alternative solution then? Crack Down won't change the trait on its own, and only delays the issue to next time. What do you suggest we do?

Plus, do you really think our religious doctrine is so weak? Our king mentioned he was easily able to trip up the Puritans because their logic was pretty screwy. That is not the sign of a group that does well in debates.

Hero king is dead.

Puritan doctrines tend to be quite powerful actually. They are reductionist, and adhere only to the the absolute core of the faith at its most literal understandings.
Expert theologians can debate puritans and win most of the time sure. But to those with less expertise, it is impossible to debate the puritans, because doing so risks arguing against the very tenets of the faith.
The extreme simplicity of puritanism, whilst a weakness against theologians, is an extremely powerful force on the public.

Anyhow, as for purity. I said it before, the purity trait itself is a great thing, it has lots of directions to evolve towards. And it was mentioned that root and branch risks losing the trait, so it's throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
Another thing to consider is how quickly one draws the line at heresy. This is a doctrinal argument within the faith, choosing wipe out option, may very well set us up to have extremely low tolerance for any theological development or innovation. Because keep in mind, the puritans are precisely that.

I say to get the most out of the debacle, let the puritans be so long as they tow the line, and let the faith develop whilst they are providing doctrinal opposition. This way, it becomes sophisticated enough to resist future reductionist and literalist doctrines.

Now, as for how to deal with the root of the problem, the answer is simple: shift social focus. Make it so that the things the puritans oppose are a standard part of the social fabric, basically, have the puritans wage an uphill battle. Most importantly, emphasise certain aspects of society so that not only are they seen as normal, but they become good. Making puritan arguments more likely to annoy rather than convert.

Here's an example of early Islamic history.
In the Umayyad period, there was a major doctrinal split between the Hanafi "orthodoxy" of the Umayyads, and the Khawarij who held that the former where anathema (Khawarij where hardline puritans)

The Khawarij argument against ummayads wines, music, dance, indecency, opulence, extravagance, imagery, aristocracy and hedonism found extremely fertile soil, as the argument was both simple and clearly scriptural.

The umayyads, whilst they did unleash unholy hell upon any who rebelled against them, the Khawarij issue was in the end resolved by a social shift.
The Ummayads high culture became the norm, it became expected of the elites to act in the fashion of the court. And the rest of society grew both accustomed and even expectant of this new culture. Afterall, they made a fortune servicing the new courtiers, and aspired to one day join thier ranks. Not mention that military victories and extreme material wellbeing gutted arguments of divine displeasure at the new system.
And so, arguments that challenged the entire social fabric became simply untenable, up until the 19th century.
 
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*poke*

Generally speaking, we will have 17 Econ and 12 Wealth in the main turn next turn if we go with this. That is edging really close to not enough to get everything we want done, done. Mostly Warships and more ponies, and in general our military outlook. If we grab an expand econ instead of the Forests though we get to full Econ and Wealth, with no over flow to martial from there at least.

We'd probably want to unhook a merc company though. And we also may not need to care since we have 15 incoming from the Mystic Trio inbetween next main turn and mid turn, which feeds into diplo and then wealth. *shrug* I need to think about it more.
Ah I see. Adjusted accordingly.
 
Now, let's actually talk about the rest of the options.
Why isn't anyone going for a show of strength and royal reach by supporting the SP?
Or finishing great hall, for that matter, not to mention the possible synergies between the various options?
 
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