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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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The Narrator said:
That anger only needs to show through if we choose to allow it to. We can choose to demonstrate self-control instead. There have been many times that I faced somebody that I found infuriating and despicable, and just smiled and said, "Have a nice day, sir/ma'am," because letting anger show would be counterproductive.
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Weeee have a muuuuumiiii~~~

Huggycuddlecuddlehug~~

Weeeeeeeeeeeeee have a muuuuuuuumiiiiiii~~~~~~

HuggityHuggityhug~~
 
The Narrator said:
That anger only needs to show through if we choose to allow it to. We can choose to demonstrate self-control instead. There have been many times that I faced somebody that I found infuriating and despicable, and just smiled and said, "Have a nice day, sir/ma'am," because letting anger show would be counterproductive.
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Good for you. I'm not going to stake the future of the quest on an emotional teenage girl's ability to do the same.
The Narrator said:
And I was the first person here to point out that hitting a prisoner was unacceptable, remember?
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Quite conveniently not until well after Godwinson posted. Congratulations, you are in the same bucket as everyone else, stop trying to lie to yourself.
The Narrator said:
Literally nobody is suggesting that we let this continue.
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There was an entire bandwagon for "Stand back and let them fight it out". At one point there that bandwagon included "Even if they keep slapping each other". I'm not going to name those names because that would not be productive. But I will say that Godwinson was totally in the right to be as angry at us as he was. Your attempt to demonize the only person in the thread that stood up against this shit is despicable and abhorrent and I'm getting tired of how often you try to pull underhanded shit like that.
 
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Vebyast said:
There was an entire bandwagon for "Stand back and let them fight it out". At one point there that bandwagon included "Even if they keep slapping each other". I'm not going to name those names because that would not be productive. But I will say that Godwinson was totally in the right to be as angry as he was. Your attempt to demonize the only person in the thread that stood up against this shit is despicable and abhorrent and I'm getting tired of how often you try to pull underhanded shit like that.
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'Scuse me, speaking as the person who wrote that bandwagon before we got clarif, it was never intended to allow "Even if they keep slapping each other". I feel that's some pretty bad faith, albeit understandable, I guess.
 
Kaizuki said:
'Scuse me, speaking as the person who wrote that bandwagon before we got clarif, it was never intended to allow "Even if they keep slapping each other". I feel that's some pretty bad faith, albeit understandable, I guess.
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I'm not naming names, but if you go back through the quotes, there was a vote that said, word for word, "even if they keep slapping each other". It picked up several votes. I believe that it was before you began contributing, but the point stands - this thread nearly voted to let Niko keep slapping Hijiri and Godwinson was absolutely right to be disgusted by that behavior.
 
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So, to distract from the still-steaming-pile-of-previously-molten-salt...

When are we going to take Mami on our Moon date? Can anyone with a physics noggin guess at how much time that would take, given an reaction-less impulse drive and slightly super-human constitutions?

Should we scrap it for a mere Space-date?

Do we want to [:redface:] Kiss the Mumi or [:redface:] Have the Mumi kiss us?
 
Karnewarrior said:
When are we going to take Mami on our Moon date? Can anyone with a physics noggin guess at how much time that would take, given an reaction-less impulse drive and slightly super-human constitutions?
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Round-trip travel time <30 minutes, almost entirely spent ascending slowly enough to avoid setting off nuclear launch warning systems. Descent is much faster because we should be able to pretend to be a big, slow meteoroid. Kyubey will still have to do some cover-up work but that's not too much of an issue. Space-date would have identical issues.
 
Vebyast said:
Quite conveniently not until well after Godwinson posted. Congratulations, you are in the same bucket as everyone else, stop trying to lie to yourself.
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Godwinson tried to imply that because I wanted our response to be calm, I was okay with letting Niko hit Hijiri:
Godwinson said:
If you've detained someone and just stood by as they were assaulted, then you're fucked up.
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Which is provably false. The first thing I posted after I woke up and caught up on the thread yesterday included this:
The Narrator said:
I have to agree. Regardless of whatever other relationship or issues are at play between them, you do not hit a restrained, non-threatening prisoner. We should have intervened to pull them apart as soon as Niko slapped her.
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Godwinson had said that hitting someone who couldn't fight back was wrong, yes, and I was agreeing with him. But I specifically put in in terms of striking a prisoner who was in custody, to make the issue clear. And then a day later, Godwinson basically said, "Oh, you want our response to be calm, so you must be totally cool with hitting prisoners in custody." That's some pretty blatant strawmanning.
 
The Narrator said:
Godwinson had said that hitting someone who couldn't fight back was wrong, yes, and I was agreeing with him. But I specifically put in in terms of striking a prisoner who was in custody, to make the issue clear. And then a day later, Godwinson basically said, "Oh, you want our response to be calm, so you must be totally cool with hitting prisoners in custody." That's some pretty blatant strawmanning.
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When the calm approach won't work, yes, the assumption must be either incompetence or malice. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one, such as it is, but he certainly wasn't in that kind of mood. 'Course, the way you brought this back up is making me reconsider my estimate.
 
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The Narrator said:
Godwinson tried to imply that because I wanted our response to be calm, I was okay with letting Niko hit Hijiri:

Which is provably false. The first thing I posted after I woke up and caught up on the thread yesterday included this:

Godwinson had said that hitting someone who couldn't fight back was wrong, yes, and I was agreeing with him. But I specifically put in in terms of striking a prisoner who was in custody, to make the issue clear. And then a day later, Godwinson basically said, "Oh, you want our response to be calm, so you must be totally cool with hitting prisoners in custody." That's some pretty blatant strawmanning.
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I quite honestly didn't remember your previous post at that point. I've been avoiding posting to the thread lately because I'm too fucking angry for dealing it properly, as demonstrated there.. So my apologies on that part.

As for vebyast's comment about you only speaking up after I did, I believe he was referring to my initial "WTF?!" post pointing out how the thread seemed totally fine with all of this.
Adhoc vote count started by Godwinson on Nov 7, 2017 at 1:33 AM, finished with 128472 posts and 37 votes.
  • [x] Simultaneously: Telepathy Kazumi, keep her from coming in angry and worsening the situation. Enlist Mami's assistance if necessary.
    [x] Simultaneously: Telepathy Sayaka, tell her to start keeping an eye on the Pleiades, too - they're losing control.
    [x] Simultaneously: Use utility fog to slip out of Saki's grasp and walk away. Take care not to let the situation escalate physically. Move to present body language separating the parties and protecting Hijiri.
    [x] Simultaneously: Command Niko out of the memory field so you can cleanse her. Keep her from moving back in. Enlist Mami's voice if necessary.
    [x] Tone: Coldly furious disapproval. This is not okay.
    [x] Excoriate Niko for attacking Hijiri.
    -[x] Look at how terrified Hijiri is. Does Niko want to be the kind of person that brings all her friends to beat up a helpless victim?
    -[x] The biggest thing denying Hijiri a peaceful life right now is Niko assaulting her.
    [x] Tell Niko and Hijiri that you promise you will find a way for everyone to live peacefully. That is what your wish was for. That is what everything you do is for. That is why you exist.
    [x] But - Hijiri can't live peacefully if she feels like Niko is trying to dictate her life for her. Emphasize to Niko that Hijiri is her own person.
    [x] Tell Hijiri that, as shit as Niko may be at explaining it, she did wish for Hijiri to be able to be happy. Seeing Hijiri apparently reject that hurt her badly and she's not handling it very well.
    [x] Reiterate your promise of a peaceful life - if all else fails, Hijiri wouldn't be the first refugee seeking peace in Mitakihara. Better solutions exist, but even in the worst case you can and will deliver.
    [x] If you get a chance, get rid of the memory device. Hijiri needs a different kind of protection right now.
    [X] Onmur
    [X] Use multitasking as much as possible.
    [X] Telepathy Kazumi, Saki, Mami, Sayaka.
    -[X] Convey that no, Niko is not handling herself, how horrifying this situation is, and ask for help stopping it.
    -[X] If the Pleiades don't reign Niko in, tell them you won't be complicit to abuse.
    -[X] With everyone here though this is more of a social issue and we don't need raw manpower. Sayaka's mobile and dangerous - ask her to link up with Oriko and Kirika and make sure Airi doesn't hit them while they're helpless.
    [X] Make yourself heard. Niko needs to back off, get Gem cleansing, and calm the hell down.
    -[X] If necessary, make a Grief wall between the Kannas, or ask Mami to separate them.
    -[X] To anyone who disagrees: succinctly explain everything wrong with this picture.
    --[X] Above all, Hijiri is our (collective) captive. We're the ones in control. We can't abuse that.
    [X] Ask Niko not to hit Hijiri again. She's already basically captive - slapping her like that's just wrong.
    [X] After seeing this, we can't in good conscience let them deal with this alone.
    -[X] We, or anyone neutral to both parties, will mediate this discussion.
    [X] Both of them have points, and neither of them understand each other.
    -[X] We want to help everyone.
    -[X] To Hijiri: The Memory Device is preventing us from helping her more than it protects her from anyone. Ask her to drop it, and promise she'll be treated fairly.
    [x] Null
    [X] Calm down Sabrina. Alright, let's do this.
    [X] "It's not Niko I'm worried about right now. Hijiri's afraid she's being treated as an extension of Niko, as an object, and Niko is playing into that fear."
    [X] Hypervene Intervene. Get Sayaka's help if necessary.
    [X] Mami's new role is to try to deescalate Kazusa when she lands. She knows Kazusa better than any of us.
    [X] Separate the two of them. Deescalate.
    - [X] If Niko objects, give her your reasons for intervening. Both personally, as pertains to what exactly she's doing and practically.
    - [X] Try to calm Hijiri down. She deserves to be treated humanely. She's not a thing; she's Niko's sister.
    - [X] The memory field has to go. We can't cleanse either of them while they're in there, and the last thing we need is for the two of them to get hyped up on grief and start flaying each other alive. It's not doing Hijiri any good right now anyway. If she gives it up as a show of good faith, then we can help her find a solution to this mess.
    [X] Cleanse.
    [X] Mediate. Rephrase their sentences to each other so nothing is lost in shouted translation.
    - [X] No hitting. Hitting is bad, so make sure they don't hit each other.
    - [X] Let them explain themselves. Gotta understand each other to agree or compromise, y'know?
    [X] If Kazumi or Saki tries to interfere, point out that Niko was abusing Hijiri when Hijiri had no chance to fight back. That's mean. Hijiri is terrified. And look, we look like we're ganging up on her.
    [x] Don't even dignify Saki with a response. If she doesn't see how wrong she is, it's not worth it.
    [x] Brainmail Kazumi: "Hopefully be with you in a few but things are way toxic down here and we've let it go too far already."
    [x] Enlist Mami and Sayaka's help to separate them and deescalate. Again. Jerry Springer is not a model to emulate!
    -[x] Fuck it, Sayaka, antimagic. This paranoia over memory bullshit and what precisely the device does has gone far too long. It can be rebuilt.
    -[x] Quiet down, don't make me get the spray bottle.
    -[x] Saki will probably interfere more insistently. "I'm sure you mean well, Saki, but I will NOT allow this to become a lynching."
    [X] Disable the Memory Field safely.
    -[X] Ask Sayaka if she can focus the antimagic to a beam.
    [X] Send in the chibis - All the chibis! Even Chibis of Meguca we have yet to meet.
    -[X] Have them hug every Kanna they see.
    [X] Use multitasking as much as possible.
    [X] Telepathy Kazumi, Saki, Mami, Sayaka.
    -[X] Convey that no, Niko is not handling herself well, how horrifying this situation is, and ask for help stopping it.
    -[X] If the Pleiades don't reign Niko in, tell them that though you acknowledge Hijiri's crimes, you won't be complicit to abuse.
    [X] Make yourself heard. Niko needs to back off, get Gem cleansing, and calm the hell down.
    -[X] If necessary, make a Grief wall between the Kannas, or ask Mami to separate them.
    -[X] If anyone disagrees: Pointedly explain everything wrong with this picture. Don't go overboard.
    --[X] Above all, Hijiri is our (collective) captive. We're the ones in control. We can't abuse that.
    [X] After seeing this, we can't in good conscience let them deal with this alone.
    -[X] We, or anyone willing to stay calm, will mediate this discussion.
    [X] Neither of them understand each other, and both have points they need to get across for a peaceful resolution.
    -[X] We want to help everyone.
    -[X] To Hijiri: The Memory Device is preventing us from helping her more than it protects her from anyone. Ask her to drop it, and promise she'll be treated fairly.
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Warning: No more miss nice mod
  • Staff Post
    • no more miss nice mod Right, I can tell this is going nowhere good, and verbal warnings seem to be having no impact, so @The Narrator and @Vebyast , both of you are taking 24 hours out of the thread to calm down.

    Everyone else? Please limit yourselves to discussing each other's actual points, rather than engaging in debates on the character of various posters.
     
  • Staff Post
    • [X] Onmur

    I like you~

    Edit: Sudden Mod Banner. Scary~​
     
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    I am glad that Godwinson changed the bandwagon to intervening; I just think we should focus on calming the Kanna's down and healing Hijiri of the physical injuries she probably sustained.

    Nico's action was not right or acceptable, but she isn't a trained policeman gone rogue, she is a teen mom of a teenager and is in way over her head. And she might not have been the first Kanna to resort to physical assault, someone attacked her earlier.
     
    Karnewarrior said:
    Do we want to [:redface:] Kiss the Mumi or [:redface:] Have the Mumi kiss us?
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    Mami stared at Sabrina, waiting for Sabrina to kiss her. Sabrina stared at Mami, waiting for Mami to kiss her.

    At times like these, dragged in too many different directions, it was all Sabrina could do to let every part of herself have a say. Inside of her head, dozens of different ideations were waking up, ready to duke it out-

    Frankly, I think you should just kiss her, said Sabrina's mental model of Homura, who at the moment looked nothing like the ostensibly-stoic Homura of the real world, and looked everything like an unholy fusion of the shy girl she had once been and the Devil she could become.

    Disagreement, said Sabrina's Inner Pessimist, who looked a lot like Oriko, but was completely different from Sabrina's mental model of Oriko. (That mental model was sitting out of this conversation.)

    No-one liked listening to Pessimism, but Scrupulosity and Conscientiousness always insisted that they had to listen to her anyways. I object, in the strongest possible terms, to taking initiative again in this relationship. I will not continue to set that precedent, when Mami already feels starved of agency-

    Excuse me, said Sabrina's mental model of Mami, hesitant to interrupt. We've already established that I want to kiss Sabrina, right? I think your pessimism is biased in certain directions, not to imagine what could go wrong if Sabrina doesn't kiss me. If my girlfriend was hesitant to kiss me, I might be inclined to think that she didn't actually want to kiss me, especially given my biases.

    The Inner Pessimist went up in a puff of logic, two doomsaying arguments chasing each other's tails like the Ouroboros. Less than a tenth of a second had passed in the outside world, as things went at times like this.

    Are you going to invest in this relationship or not? Sabrina's model of Homura asked again. Mami's emotional stability is an important asset going forward.

    (There's the Homura that we all know and love-! someone cried out from the back, before an imaginary gunshot let loose, and an imaginary body hit the floor.)

    Of course we want to invest in the relationship, that's not the contention here! We're trying to figure out how we do that! yelled Sabrina's mental model of her own goals.

    Actually, I disagree. I'm not trying to 'invest' in anything! This relationship is worth more than any kind of transaction! said Sabrina's mental model of her own emotions. Or, in other words, her emotions.

    Sabrina's froth of wants and needs and plans fragmented again, into further subdivisions of desires; and a new voice spoke up, and for all that this was all in Sabrina's head the new voice looked and sounded like her chibi self. I just want to say, said the small, shy voice. I, I think it would really be kind of nice if we let Mami kiss us. You know?

    Two-tenths of a second were lost to collective fantasizing.

    No! Intrusive Thoughts burst out. No, no, no! Heroes act, and villains react! Come on, guys. Do we want to be a hero or a villain!?

    And that cinched it. Time burst across them again, and Sabrina opened her eyes, having made her choice. On some level, she had already made her choice even before she had even had a single thought, or stopped to examine the problem. Her choices were her own for all that maybe they shouldn't have been.

    Sabrina tried to lean in to kiss Mami-

    -but Mami had already leaned in to kiss her.

    Madoka damn it, said Intrusive Thoughts, before she drowned in a deluge of warm fuzzies.

    Shut up, said Sabrina to herself. And she did.
     

    This place really hasn't changed at all...

    @cmwatford You wanna change your vote? I didn't really know what was going on when I voted, so you should probably vote for someone else. Someone who, y'know, knows what they're doing?
     
    ... Fuck alllll of this. None of these votes need to be so long, or go so far into specifics.

    Here, have fifty words. I highly encourage all existing bandwagons to burn and slash their word counts by switching to intent based phrasing, instead of spending absurd amounts of detail on situational minutiae.

    [x] Be calm, empathic, and conciliatory.

    [x] Explain your views. Ensure Kazumi et al. don't escalate further.

    [x] Separate Hijiri and Niko. Establish Hijiri's personhood and dignity, while maintaining that her actions were incorrect regardless. Focus on enabling productive discussion.

    [x] Prevent further violence. Lower the memory field. Cleanse everybody.
     
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