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Paths of Civilization

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Timewinders said:
I do enjoy the historically accurate nature of the quest. It's just that it's also by definition a game, and a game that's futile from the start makes me wonder if I wasted my time playing it in the first place. I guess I'm just not feeling it because after a while that kind of realism gets to you and you stop having fun. You put out one fire, then another one starts, over and over again. Why bother putting out the fire in the first place? Any progress that's made will inevitably be destroyed by an unlucky roll, whether by a plague or, perhaps in real life, a rogue asteroid or a solar flare or a gamma ray burst or nuclear war or global warming, etc. etc.. Even in an individual's life things can go fine until you get some random health problem that turns your life into a living hell. I guess what I'm wondering is, why bother doing anything when the bad will always outnumber the good, to the point where what good there is, is not worth enduring the bad.

Basically, isn't the Khan right about civilization as concept (or rather, the Paths of Civilization, lol) being wrong, decreasing net happiness only for greed? The nomads seem to live a pretty happy existence just doing whatever they want whenever they want, not trying to build but instead just living hedonistically and trying to die honorably. Even when a plague comes along they can just burn everything and then not suffer a single consequence.

In short, I think we should send all the soldiers we can to fight these guys. Protecting only the core just to survive isn't worth it if the survival that's left isn't worth it. Let's try to at least go out with honor.

[X] [War] Scramble everyone (Sends warriors east, Switches to Mass Levy policy and removes Isolated Economy status)
[X] [React] We need more fast scouts to counter the nomads! (Sec More Spiritbonded)
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Did you just enter an existential crisis and find enlightenment from a fictional Khano_O
 
PrimalShadow said:
So why does this imply defeat in detail?
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Fighting an all-cavalry army across plague ravaged countryside is not going to be easy. Our army is likely to take enormous casualties before they ever encounter the enemy. We will lose a lot of people because right now the plague is endemic in rural areas and still basically uncontrolled. As soon as our troops leave the cities, they'll immediately start taking damage from the plague. Given all of the people they wound encounter, refugees, people moving supplies, this is unavoidable.

The nomads, unfortunately, are likely going to be highly resistant. They're slaughtering basically everyone they come across and are enforcing quarantine protocols that are considered over zealous by our 'Shut. Down. Everything.' doctors. Right off the bat, we're purely likely to suffer more for that reason alone. Our armies will also be much larger and that means even a few people falling ill will infect enormous numbers of people around them, leading to further, exponential suffering. In pre-modern times, more troops died to disease than the blades and arrows of an enemy.

After the army is actually assembled (which will take time), we're looking at making a month long trek through the plague ravaged lowlands in order to get to the Thunder Twins. The Thunder Twins are almost certainly going to be lost at this point. Walled cities might still stand, but between the messenger arriving and getting our troops organized and moved out, that's going to be too late for virtually everyone in the countryside. Our soldiers would then have to walk through this plague ravaged countryside while the nomads have burned out virtually every settlement and taken or destroyed all of the supplies not only to feed themselves but out of religious imparitive. The supply line from us to the army would be so long that it's basically impossible to protect. It's just as likely to be cut by plague as it is by a few nomads moving around the army and burning supply caravans.

Once we've finally arrive in the Thunder Twins after have our army eaten away by the epidemic plague and extremely isolated and vulnerable supply lines, we'll have to clash with an all-cavalry force. This is nomad hard mode. We're likely to have better arms and armour, but horses have dominated combat since virtually forever until the rise of gunpowder. The only hope we would have is if our generals can drive a Heroic Marital nomad to make a mistake or directly attack the army head on due to his religious madness. Heroic Martials don't make mistakes like that, unfortunately.

All it would take is for the Heroic Martial to decide to go scorched earth on our army and we'd have no way to respond. They could cut our extremely long and vulnerable supply lines and wait for the army to dwindle away after they've eaten up all of the available supplies. Combined with being vulnerable as a result of the plague and they'll be eaten up.

Alternatively, the Heroic Martial may try to move his army around ours. Once he's bypassed the army (using his superior scouts), he could hit our unprotected core. Our cities are the nomad Khan's first priority and they would be extremely vulnerable to raids with literally everyone and everything that could be used to fight sent elsewhere.

I simply don't trust our Poor Martial King, even if he hands things off to a warchief, to be able to devise a strategy that will allow him to defeat a Heroic Martial Nomad Khan with an extreme advantage in terrain and cavalry. The lowlands are where nomads were born to operate and give cavalry a definitive advantage, that's not something we can contest.

PrimalShadow said:
Also, not sure that the plague kills enough people to really hurt an army. Losing 20% of your civilian population screws a nation; losing 20% of your army hurts a lot but is something that happens a bunch of the time on campaigns anyway, so I doubt it shuts the whole thing down.
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...Those loses would be considered profoundly devastating. Normally in pre-gunpowder war you didn't lose that much of your army except in the worst of defeats. Losing as much as 10% of the men was considered pure butchery, even in victory.

Imagine the effects on morale this would have 20% of the army dead before they ever clash with the enemy. They've marched and left trails of their own dead behind them for weeks while walking over a burned our ruin, raided by the nomads. The fight will have gone out of them.

DocMatoi said:
Recall that AN said our Great Power Legacies WILL Proc if we go to war. Thats a bunch of extra martial to us
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Not really. It's like +2-4 Martial a turn. It's worth maybe one {S} Raise Army action. Wars generally don't have more than 3 phases and rarely have more than four. Look at this turn, we've had way, way more phases than usual considering the plague and the Nomads and we're only going to have 4 total phases.

Thomasfoolery said:
Couldn't they just travel down the river?
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No. It's a month long trek across the lowlands. They can't be transported west by river past Valleyhome.


@Academia Nut what's the current skill of our War Chief and what are his thoughts on the current situation? How would he counter masses of enemy cavalry?
 
Kiba said:
Guys. Guys. Guys. Stop what you are doing.

The only hardpoint is in Xohyr.

Our military are infantry. They will die getting there.
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That is the point. We lose Xohyr, we lose Txolla on top of the Thunder Horse and Thunder Speaker.

Xohyr is our last defense.
Rakuhn said:
He has an entire force of cavalry. If he can get past our rivers (and I find it very unlikely that we our army is large enough defend several hundred miles of river against a concentrated assault), he can literally bypass our entire army and strike the core directly.
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Which is the point of the Spiritbounded. They are used as scouts so we can spot them when they try. You also have to remember that we have Longboats as well. That means we have much easier way to transport troops up and down the river once we reach Xohyr.
 
Timewinders said:
I do enjoy the historically accurate nature of the quest. It's just that it's also by definition a game, and a game that's futile from the start makes me wonder if I wasted my time playing it in the first place. I guess I'm just not feeling it because after a while that kind of realism gets to you and you stop having fun. You put out one fire, then another one starts, over and over again. Why bother putting out the fire in the first place? Any progress that's made will inevitably be destroyed by an unlucky roll, whether by a plague or, perhaps in real life, a rogue asteroid or a solar flare or a gamma ray burst or nuclear war or global warming, etc. etc.. Even in an individual's life things can go fine until you get some random health problem that turns your life into a living hell. I guess what I'm wondering is, why bother doing anything when the bad will always outnumber the good, to the point where what good there is, is not worth enduring the bad.

Basically, isn't the Khan right about civilization as concept (or rather, the Paths of Civilization, lol) being wrong, decreasing net happiness only for greed? The nomads seem to live a pretty happy existence just doing whatever they want whenever they want, not trying to build but instead just living hedonistically and trying to die honorably. Even when a plague comes along they can just burn everything and then not suffer a single consequence.

In short, I think we should send all the soldiers we can to fight these guys. Protecting only the core just to survive isn't worth it if the survival that's left isn't worth it. Let's try to at least go out with honor.

[X] [War] Scramble everyone (Sends warriors east, Switches to Mass Levy policy and removes Isolated Economy status)
[X] [React] We need more fast scouts to counter the nomads! (Sec More Spiritbonded)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It''s not unique to quests: everything is futile and we all die. So, uh....that's not really the point?
Welcome to existentialism, I guess? :V

And wrt quest: well, yes, that was inevitable with any degree of realism though. Look at Chinese warring states, and the wars against nomads. Or at Rome, which died but in death enshrined immortal legacy by parts of which people yet live now. And so on.

All empires die, and even more often they all suffer. Most of history kinda sucked for most of the people on Earth, honestly.
(Edit: so, uh, I kinda expected this to happen, to be honest; that's just how history goes)

Sivantic said:
That is the point. We lose Xohyr, we lose Txolla on top of the Thunder Horse and Thunder Speaker.

Xohyr is our last defense.
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WE WILL HOLD THE RED LINE

[X] [War] Scramble everyone (Sends warriors east, Switches to Mass Levy policy and removes Isolated Economy status)
[X] [React] We need more fast scouts to counter the nomads! (Sec More Spiritbonded)
 
Thomasfoolery said:
Couldn't they just travel down the river?
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Not very easily, since we never got around to building the canal that would explicitly have facilitated lowland troop movements.
Timewinders said:
In short, I think we should send all the soldiers we can to fight these guys. Protecting only the core just to survive isn't worth it if the survival that's left isn't worth it. Let's try to at least go out with honor.
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I understand frustration at the fact that everything seems to be constantly on fire, but don't let that blind you to the progress we've made - Ymaryn civilization has come incredibly far since the start of the quest, and if it survives, can progress further still. Consider this very plague, for example - without all our advances in sanitation, farming, etc., it would have broken us entirely. Instead we have the chance to fight it off. We shouldn't just give up that chance, however slim it may be, for something as fleeting and trivial as "an honorable death."
 
Sivantic said:
That is the point. We lose Xohyr, we lose Txolla on top of the Thunder Horse and Thunder Speaker.

Xohyr is our last defense.

Which is the point of the Spiritbounded. They are used as scouts so we can spot them when they try. You also have to remember that we have Longboats as well. That means we have much easier way to transport troops up and down the river once we reach Xohyr.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The problem is reaching Xohyr. By that time it will be too late.
 
[X] [War] Scramble everyone (Sends warriors east, Switches to Mass Levy policy and removes Isolated Economy status)
[X] [React] We need more fast scouts to counter the nomads! (Sec More Spiritbonded)
 
Redium said:
Fighting an all-cavalry army across plague ravaged countryside is not going to be easy. Our army is likely to take enormous casualties before they ever encounter the enemy. We will lose a lot of people because right now the plague is endemic in rural areas and still basically uncontrolled. As soon as our troops leave the cities, they'll immediately start taking damage from the plague. Given all of the people they wound encounter, refugees, people moving supplies, this is unavoidable.

The nomads, unfortunately, are likely going to be highly resistant. They're slaughtering basically everyone they come across and are enforcing quarantine protocols that are considered over zealous by our 'Shut. Down. Everything.' doctors. Right off the bat, we're purely likely to suffer more for that reason alone. Our armies will also be much larger and that means even a few people falling ill will infect enormous numbers of people around them, leading to further, exponential suffering. In pre-modern times, more troops died to disease than the blades and arrows of an enemy.

After the army is actually assembled (which will take time), we're looking at making a month long trek through the plague ravaged lowlands in order to get to the Thunder Twins. The Thunder Twins are almost certainly going to be lost at this point. Walled cities might still stand, but between the messenger arriving and getting our troops organized and moved out, that's going to be too late for virtually everyone in the countryside. Our soldiers would then have to walk through this plague ravaged countryside while the nomads have burned out virtually every settlement and taken or destroyed all of the supplies not only to feed themselves but out of religious imparitive. The supply line from us to the army would be so long that it's basically impossible to protect. It's just as likely to be cut by plague as it is by a few nomads moving around the army and burning supply caravans.

Once we've finally arrive in the Thunder Twins after have our army eaten away by the epidemic plague and extremely isolated and vulnerable supply lines, we'll have to clash with an all-cavalry force. This is nomad hard mode. We're likely to have better arms and armour, but horses have dominated combat since virtually forever until the rise of gunpowder. The only hope we would have is if our generals can drive a Heroic Marital nomad to make a mistake or directly attack the army head on due to his religious madness. Heroic Martials don't make mistakes like that, unfortunately.

All it would take is for the Heroic Martial to decide to go scorched earth on our army and we'd have no way to respond. They could cut our extremely long and vulnerable supply lines and wait for the army to dwindle away after they've eaten up all of the available supplies. Combined with being vulnerable as a result of the plague and they'll be eaten up.

Alternatively, the Heroic Martial may try to move his army around ours. Once he's bypassed the army (using his superior scouts), he could hit our unprotected core. Our cities are the nomad Khan's first priority and they would be extremely vulnerable to raids with literally everyone and everything that could be used to fight sent elsewhere.

I simply don't trust our Poor Martial King, even if he hands things off to a warchief, to be able to devise a strategy that will allow him to defeat a Heroic Martial Nomad Khan with an extreme advantage in terrain and cavalry. The lowlands are where nomads were born to operate and give cavalry a definitive advantage, that's not something we can contest.
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...fine. I'll approval vote for leaving the lowlands to suffer, then.

But you have to admit that if this was the case it would be doubly true for raising our levies, right?

[X] [War] They're on their own(-1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, ???)
[X] [War] Scramble what warriors are available (Sends a Sec War Mission and Mercenary Companies to the east)
[X] [React] The economy, fools! (Sec Expand Econ, cannot be taken with Mass Levy active)
 
[X] [War] Scramble everyone (Sends warriors east, Switches to Mass Levy policy and removes Isolated Economy status)
[X] [React] We need more fast scouts to counter the nomads! (Sec More Spiritbonded)

Plague will suck but we need to move or everything in the lowlands will be lost.
 
FUCKING NOMADS!!!! IT'S ALWAYS THE FUCKING NOMADS! We get an apocalypse plague, we stop it in its tracks temporarily with double 100, get a HEROIC ADMIN/MYSTIC, but then the FUCKING NOMADS come in and wreck what should be a great and glorious victory against disease for us!
 
Sivantic said:
That is the point. We lose Xohyr, we lose Txolla on top of the Thunder Horse and Thunder Speaker.

Xohyr is our last defense.

Which is the point of the Spiritbounded. They are used as scouts so we can spot them when they try. You also have to remember that we have Longboats as well. That means we have much easier way to transport troops up and down the river once we reach Xohyr.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Xohyr is hundreds of miles south of Valleyhome. How does it defend our core? What guarantee do we have that the cavalry force will attack it at all?
 
Redium said:
Fighting an all-cavalry army across plague ravaged countryside is not going to be easy. Our army is likely to take enormous casualties before they ever encounter the enemy. We will lose a lot of people because right now the plague is endemic in rural areas and still basically uncontrolled. As soon as our troops leave the cities, they'll immediately start taking damage from the plague. Given all of the people they wound encounter, refugees, people moving supplies, this is unavoidable.

The nomads, unfortunately, are likely going to be highly resistant. They're slaughtering basically everyone they come across and are enforcing quarantine protocols that are considered over zealous by our 'Shut. Down. Everything.' doctors. Right off the bat, we're purely likely to suffer more for that reason alone. Our armies will also be much larger and that means even a few people falling ill will infect enormous numbers of people around them, leading to further, exponential suffering. In pre-modern times, more troops died to disease than the blades and arrows of an enemy.

After the army is actually assembled (which will take time), we're looking at making a month long trek through the plague ravaged lowlands in order to get to the Thunder Twins. The Thunder Twins are almost certainly going to be lost at this point. Walled cities might still stand, but between the messenger arriving and getting our troops organized and moved out, that's going to be too late for virtually everyone in the countryside. Our soldiers would then have to walk through this plague ravaged countryside while the nomads have burned out virtually every settlement and taken or destroyed all of the supplies not only to feed themselves but out of religious imparitive. The supply line from us to the army would be so long that it's basically impossible to protect. It's just as likely to be cut by plague as it is by a few nomads moving around the army and burning supply caravans.

Once we've finally arrive in the Thunder Twins after have our army eaten away by the epidemic plague and extremely isolated and vulnerable supply lines, we'll have to clash with an all-cavalry force. This is nomad hard mode. We're likely to have better arms and armour, but horses have dominated combat since virtually forever until the rise of gunpowder. The only hope we would have is if our generals can drive a Heroic Marital nomad to make a mistake or directly attack the army head on due to his religious madness. Heroic Martials don't make mistakes like that, unfortunately.

All it would take is for the Heroic Martial to decide to go scorched earth on our army and we'd have no way to respond. They could cut our extremely long and vulnerable supply lines and wait for the army to dwindle away after they've eaten up all of the available supplies. Combined with being vulnerable as a result of the plague and they'll be eaten up.

Alternatively, the Heroic Martial may try to move his army around ours. Once he's bypassed the army (using his superior scouts), he could hit our unprotected core. Our cities are the nomad Khan's first priority and they would be extremely vulnerable to raids with literally everyone and everything that could be used to fight sent elsewhere.

I simply don't trust our Poor Martial King, even if he hands things off to a warchief, to be able to devise a strategy that will allow him to defeat a Heroic Martial Nomad Khan with an extreme advantage in terrain and cavalry. The lowlands are where nomads were born to operate and give cavalry a definitive advantage, that's not something we can contest.



...Those loses would be considered profoundly devastating. Normally in pre-gunpowder war you didn't lose that much of your army except in the worst of defeats. Losing as much as 10% of the men was considered pure butchery, even in victory.

Imagine the effects on morale this would have 20% of the army dead before they ever clash with the enemy. They've marched and left trails of their own dead behind them for weeks while walking over a burned our ruin, raided by the nomads. The fight will have gone out of them.



Not really. It's like +2-4 Martial a turn. It's worth maybe one {S} Raise Army action. Wars generally don't have more than 3 phases and rarely have more than four. Look at this turn, we've had way, way more phases than usual considering the plague and the Nomads and we're only going to have 4 total phases.



No. It's a month long trek across the lowlands. They can't be transported west by river past Valleyhome.


@Academia Nut what's the current skill of our War Chief and what are his thoughts on the current situation? How would he counter masses of enemy cavalry?
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And this is why Nomad's randomly turning from passive background to a horrific threat every time they get a Heroic Leader, who is always a Heroic Martial is just fucking frustrating.
This is supposed to be a realistic Quest, and it is, but if I wanted to get fucked by the facts of life I would go outside.
 
PrimalShadow said:
...fine. I'll approval vote for leaving the lowlands to suffer, then.

But you have to admit that if this was the case it would be doubly true for raising our levies, right?

[X] [War] They're on their own(-1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, ???)
[X] [War] Scramble what warriors are available (Sends a Sec War Mission and Mercenary Companies to the east)
[X] [React] The economy, fools! (Sec Expand Econ, cannot be taken with Mass Levy active)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It is true for raising our levies and it is true for our mercenaries. We are sending them to death.
 
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