@PrimalShadow

No, but seriously, do you not even realize that if provinces+passives take even 1 Ironworks we are on fire? Literally 1 single misstep.
Do you not even realize that if our balanced policy took just one Spiritbound action with our Kilns, it would put us at negative Wealth and trigger a bunch of problems? Or if it decided to take 3 mains worth of Expand Forest, it would probably run out our Econ and kill us by famine? Or if it decides to build up our Naval, we would be screwed for Wealth AND Martial, with predictably bad consequences?


I plan for our policies being CONSERVATIVE, because that is how we were told they behaved from the start of the quest. There is no reason to believe that our policies are going to ignore our quests when they've always gone for them first. There is also no reason to believe that our policies are going to overuse our Forests despite our Priests telling them otherwise with their near-max religious authority.
 
Do you not even realize that if our balanced policy took just one Spiritbound action with our Kilns, it would put us at negative Wealth and trigger a bunch of problems? Or if it decided to take 3 mains worth of Expand Forest, it would probably run out our Econ and kill us by famine? Or if it decides to build up our Naval, we would be screwed for Wealth AND Martial, with predictably bad consequences?


I plan for our policies being CONSERVATIVE, because that is how we were told they behaved from the start of the quest. There is no reason to believe that our policies are going to ignore our quests when they've always gone for them first. There is also no reason to believe that our policies are going to overuse our Forests despite our Priests telling them otherwise with their near-max religious authority.
And yet starvation because of cotton happened.

There is no guarantee that the Patricians would be the only ones hijacking projects.

Better to not risk it.
 
And yet starvation because of cotton happened.

There is no guarantee that the Patricians would be the only ones hijacking projects.

Better to not risk it.
If they start acting in that way generally, we just lose, full stop. We have to assume that was a rare or one-time event or there's just no point to any of this.
 
Becuase they *can*, with one misstep, set us on fire. And the probability is not even low: one unit of Ironworks will do it.

And, like, it's not even for something ultra-useful: he just replaced Kilns with Ironworks, which we could build next turn in other Guold slot. With this massive massive gamble we win.....1 turn with Ironworks 2. That's it.
'On fire' is a bit much. We'll start eating into unsustainable forests, and probably have some people question whether we need to restrict ourselves so tightly. It almost certainly won't be an existential threat. That said, I'm voting for a Forestry policy.
 
And yet starvation because of cotton happened.
Starvation happened because of US. Not Provinces; us.


The one time that an exception happened EVER (the turn before we starved), it happened because AN made a mistake and we didn't actually lose anything there.

There is no guarantee that the Patricians would be the only ones hijacking projects.
AN has promised to specifically tell us when Hijacking is possible.

Better to not risk it.
You are right. Better not risk it. We should be sure to keep above, or, 10 Wealth and Econ or so each turn to make sure that our policies don't suddenly go insane.

Let me just check how much that leaves us with...
 
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[X] [Art] The entire half-exile practice should be reviewed (-1 Stability, ???)

[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[X] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
[X] [Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn)
[X] [Policy] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)

[X][HK] Offer to let them buy the Banner Company contracts
-[X][HK] Show goodwill (Pay upkeep costs yourself but gain Diplomacy instead for duration of hire)
 
Urban Poor (4) - Power: +1 Max Legitimacy every 3 full power. Objective: Have a Level 2 market and a Level 1 market in another city within 3 turns. Success: Grand Bazaar Megaproject completion, no faction power increase
Guild (6)
- Power: Half faction power added to Max Wealth. Objective: Have a Level 2 Ironworks within 2 turns. Success: Free random megaproject, no faction power increase

Let us assume...

One of our free city may take infrastructure to help complete the guild quest. Then we can take on the Urban poor quest. ([3/3 for level one market [2/6] level two market])(6/6 level two market 2/3 level one market)

So, we use guild action to complete the quest next turn. Then let the infrastructure policy complete the Urban poor quest with change to spare. Or otherwise use support faction action.

Meanwhile, we keep building up our reserve of forests and generally try to stay ahead of the coal eating monster that is Ymaryn civilization and slow down so that we can deal with the paradox of development at an acceptable pace.
 
I'm curious about the tally.

e-

Okay, that seems reasonable.
 
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Looks like our final policy spread with be:
Diplomacy
Intrigue
Vassals
Cities
Forests


...Annoying that Forests is the last one and not Infrastructure. Over the next 10 turns, that is going to mean we could have gotten +20 Progress, and save us about as much Econ and bunch more stat points besides.

Betcha over those 10 turns, we are instead going to spend at least that much on Extended Project manually?


What a waste.
 
Looks like our final policy spread with be:
Diplomacy
Intrigue
Vassals
Cities
Forests


...Annoying that Forests is the last one and not Infrastructure. Over the next 10 turns, that is going to mean we could have gotten +20 Progress, and save us about as much Econ and bunch more stat points besides.

Betcha over those 10 turns, we are instead going to spend at least that much on Extended Project manually?


What a waste.

No, we are not going to spend any actions on extended projects. We need to slow down, not accelerate even more. Again, there is such a thing as unsustainable development, and we are way too close to being in it (or already are).

So no, we do not take a single manual Extended Project and focus our effort on keeping up with existing growth rate, Vassal relationships, international relations and, again, on not falling apart.

It will be slowdown, yes. That's the point. Not all growth is good.
 
[X] [Art] Sanitation is too important not to entrust to experts! (Several actions gain or increase their Tech costs, +1 Urban Poor power, ???)
[X] [Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn)
[X] [Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn) x2
[X] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates) x1
[X] [Policy] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[X] [HK] Offer to let them buy the Banner Company contracts
-[X] [HK] Show goodwill (Pay upkeep costs yourself but gain Diplomacy instead for duration of hire)
 
Betcha over those 10 turns, we are instead going to spend at least that much on Extended Project manually?

What a waste.

What you are ignoring is that progress is not free. You're rapidly increasing the development of a civilization, and there is a always price associated with that.

Didn't I told the thread countless about the paradox of development, how we encounter new problems with new solutions?

Slow down, get our ducks in order, and stop myopically focusing on infrastructure.
 
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[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns) x2
[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns) x3
[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns) x4
[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns) x5

Fuck Infrastructure, fuck "efficiency", the only reason the Ymaryn hasn't died from the voter base's pursuit of local mechanical optima is because of luck and Academia Nut's unwillingness to throw at us all the crises we should be getting.

All these forests won't actually help, but maybe if the ymaryn collapse soon enough, the amount of terraforming this does will prove a good enough legacy for the successor civ.
 
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[X] [Art] Sanitation is too important not to entrust to experts! (Several actions gain or increase their Tech costs, +1 Urban Poor power, ???)
[X] [Policy] Diplomacy (+1 Diplo/turn)
[X] [Policy] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[X] [Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn)
[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[X] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
[X] [HK] Offer to let them buy the Banner Company contracts
-[X] [HK] Show goodwill (Pay upkeep costs yourself but gain Diplomacy instead for duration of hire)
 
No, we are not going to spend any actions on extended projects. We need to slow down, not accelerate even more. Again, there is such a thing as unsustainable development, and we are way too close to being in it (or already are).
What do you want to bet? I'll give you LITERALLY 100:1 odds that we will spend at least one action on extended projects in the next ten turns. I win, you donate $5 to Against Malaria Foundation. You win, I will donate $500 to it. What do you say?
 
With the fact that our Blackbirds are apprenticeships and a city is going to focus on skullduggery, how much you want to bet that this is the start of Assassin's Creed proper? :V
 
What do you want to bet? I'll give you LITERALLY 100:1 odds that we will spend at least one action on extended projects in the next ten turns. I win, you donate $5 to Against Malaria Foundation. You win, I will donate $500 to it. What do you say?
Wow there

Internet cares not for money. We want humiliation. >:3

Unfortunately that is not endorsed by this forum so cool your jets.
 
What do you want to bet? I'll give you LITERALLY 100:1 odds that we will spend at least one action on extended projects in the next ten turns. I win, you donate $5 to Against Malaria Foundation. You win, I will donate $500 to it. What do you say?

Mm. No, no bet. There are going to be cases like Colossal Walls which we should take because they are strategic concern for us.

I can accept this bet with condition "non-critical infrasructure with short-term obvious benefits", but I can totally see us building Walls in the north or Palace in Thunder Horse.

Edit: unless this is against forum rules, that is.
 
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I really wish we had a policy that gave us Naval...

Ships are expensive, but possibly better shipyards would help. Maybe if we did Build Docks + passive Industry / Innovation policy + More Warships?
 
Mm. No, no bet. There are going to be cases like Colossal Walls which we should take because they are strategic concern for us.

I can accept this bet with condition "non-critical infrasructure with short-term obvious benefits", but I can totally see us building Walls in the north or Palace in Thunder Horse.
Sorry; that sounds a bit too imprecise to place bets on. I don't suppose you have a clearly defined definition you wouldn't mind betting on?
 
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:jackiechan:

Or how about you donate anyway and not for Internet posturing? Mmmmm. That's just a kind of... Seriously kind of asinine comment to make.
 
To be fair, we do have Pilgrimage dominance and I suspect that means Mylathadism is now spreading wildly beyond our control. I would not be surprised to discover the Mountain Horse, the Harmurri, or random tribes of steppe nomads had been converted.
It would be very funny to happen to the Trelli in fact.
Note the traits:
-Syncretic - Accelerates spread, increases schism risks. Its easy to adopt a syncretic faith because it'd just go in and tell everyone "what you believed was Right but not Complete, let us show you the Truth".

-Charity - Belief that the rich should pay for the poor and the poor should pay for the poorer. This is a stubborn trait, because it means that any state adopting it's tenets is unlikely to lose Stability from environmental events.

-Independent - The faith maintains it's own private stack of infrastructure.

What happened here was then, the Syncretic faith hit a God-King state(must have picked the idea up from the Khemetri since the HK is obssessed with Stability), raised Religious Authority to Red, and then Independent kicked in. :V

Here's hoping they can build one? Maybe we'll get an option to send them experts and materials.

I'm not sure we want to. Unless you want to give people access to Catamarans.
They'd build one I bet, if the peace holds, they're almost certainly going to be building a port in the straits of Trell, opposite the Trelli.

They could also build a Governor's Palace and leave us with only a two secondaries to use due to overcentralization penalties; do you think they'll do that? It's exactly the same thing.
They have actually risked that before in pursuit of a quest, before we revised our government system with Iron Age Law.

Quests and factions want what they want.
If they start acting in that way generally, we just lose, full stop. We have to assume that was a rare or one-time event or there's just no point to any of this.
Its not supposed to be common. AN said it was the product of a bad roll that the Patricians have decided we MUST have this.

Or you know, one of them looked north and thought "Too quiet"
'On fire' is a bit much. We'll start eating into unsustainable forests, and probably have some people question whether we need to restrict ourselves so tightly. It almost certainly won't be an existential threat. That said, I'm voting for a Forestry policy.
The problem is mostly the questioning. Some precedents we can't afford to set.

Anyway, since there's a hot topic(and the policy arguments had been repeated to death with no budging). Lets assess in the theoretical case that we decide to trigger a Reform chain right now, on top of overcentralization, potential Wealth crash and monotheism being a headache.

Phase 1: Identifying the problem.
-Identifying causes(Required one or more Hunt Troublemakers, may identify one or more of the following). Bolded for likely to be exposed, underlined for unlikely to be detected or hidden by vested interests:
--Poor enforcement of legal standards to unethically extend half-exile terms.
--Unequal enforcement of legal system to excessively punish trivial crimes for low status individuals while giving the elite a slap on the wrist.
--High recidivism of half exile population.
--High demand for unpleasant labor(garbage disposal, waste disposal, corpse disposal)
--High demand for hazardous labor(tailings handling, ash handling, disease handling)
--High demand for cheap labor(everything)

Phase two: Addressing problems
-Poor enforcement of legal standards to unethically extend half-exile terms.
--Required: More Roads, more Palaces, more Temples, more Enforce Justice, more Centralization, more Religious Authority.
--Possible outcomes:
---Sentence terms standardized for standard crimes.
---Increased oversight for legal judgments and extending sentences. Implementation of judging panels for severe offenses or punishments.
---Standardization of appeal process

-Unequal enforcement of legal system to excessively punish trivial crimes for low status individuals while giving the elite a slap on the wrist.
--Required: Low power of social elites(Patricians, Yeomen, Guilds), high power of commoners(Urban Poor), high power of moral guardians(priests)
--Possible outcomes:
---Nothing remotely likely to solving it happens, the Patricians are hardly going to legislate themselves OUT of power are they?
---House of Commons?

-High recidivism of half exile population.
--Required: Good luck with event rolls, good decisions on event rolls
--Possible outcomes:
---Corrective justice is a fairly difficult concept even in modern times, but it's possible to evolve Justice value in this way.
---We could just come up with the theory of Heritable Sin, because the evidence will back it up that the children of criminals are likely to become criminals, which would probably not be good for us.
---Experimentally disproving heritable sin would require unethical experiments with forced separation of the children of migrants and criminals for reeducation, and would spur significant unrest.

-High demand for unpleasant labor(garbage disposal, waste disposal, corpse disposal, leather processing)
--Required: Improved work efficiency, increased pay(in cash or in lost labor)
--Possible outcomes:
---Convert skilled unpleasant labor to paid labor. Costs rise slightly. Innovation increases slightly
---Convert all unpleasant labor to paid labor. Costs rise a lot. Innovation increases slightly.
---Acquire alternative labor. Debt slavery is an example, where instead of forcing people into crime to meet the demands you could force people into poverty then make them do work they don't want.

-High demand for hazardous labor(tailings handling, ash handling, disease handling)
--Required: Improved work safety, increased pay(in cash or in lost labor)
--Possible outcomes:
---Convert skilled hazardous labor to paid labor. Costs rise slightly. Innovation increases slightly. Risks lowered.
---Convert all hazardous labor to paid labor. Costs rise a lot. Innovation increases slightly. Risks greatly lowered
---Acquire alternative labor. Debt slavery is an example.

-High demand for cheap labor(everything)
--Required: Increased iron production. Increased mechanization
--Possible outcome:
---Cheap migrant labor
---Cheap debt slavery
---Push to discover alternative power sources(not very likely though)

You know, this is usally the sort of thing I'd be beelining for because Social Enrichment, but I'm honestly not confident in our ability to ride this while dealing with all the other shit that's still on fire and already overcentralized.

Because some of these goals are literally unattainable unless we spawn Geniuses in hordes.
 
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