Don't count on this. Odds are that the entire thing will burn down in battle
Note: I do not support the taking of Trelli ourselves. I find the assumption hilarious.

But to answer this point:

Stone pilings, lots of stone construction in surrounding infrastructure and the sea walls to shelter from storms mean that most of the important bits are not destroy-able by fire. If we do grab Trelli and the Grand Docks gets caught in the cross fire it is unlikely to be totally destroyed, simply damaged and we have to repair it. This may or may not be an action and resource sink.
 
I'm less worried about the admin strain, and the question of where are we going to find the actions for the things we need to do in the immediate aftermath so that it doesn't jiggle our arm while we handle metaphorical dynamite.


Unlikely to lose Cent if it continues. War is more likely to cost stability, either in people flipping their shit cause they don't want to leave the war till Trelli is ours (the traders) or we have a slog and lose it like we did during the first Trelli war.

It is also unlikely to drop cent as a vassal, though AN's comment that it makes it net harder when it comes to our administration means I would not be surprised if it did lower it.
Typically admin strain moves the caps instead of Cent
Oh that's a thing I forgot to mention! In a really bad comedy of errors we may come into unintentional conflict with Freehills over the city due to horrible timing.

They won't win, but uh... our relations will be totally shot.
Unlikely though. Part of the point was we have the fastest lunatics on the water after all. If we left on the same day we could arrive before they did :V
 
It is possible for admin strain to narrow our Cent. cap to the point where any cent would cause us to explode, mind.
That's not really going to be a problem in this particular case, unless Trelli is going to massively effect our admin. Conservative estimates have our max Cent sitting around 12, so a narrowing of 4 would have to happen for us to regret grabbing Trelli due to admin cent compression next update.
 
That's not really going to be a problem in this particular case, unless Trelli is going to massively effect our admin. Conservative estimates have our max Cent sitting around 12, so a narrowing of 4 would have to happen for us to regret grabbing Trelli due to admin cent compression next update.
Quite.

We're kind of a ridiculously high Cent civ. Admin compression won't be the specific problem here, since our Cent floor has plenty of room as well to wriggle down into.
 
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Quite.

We're kind of a ridiculously high Cent civ. Admin compression won't be the specific problem here, since our Cent floor has plenty of room as well to wriggle down into.
Indeed. Though if I sit here and wonder about it for a bit I am becoming curious if our Max Cent is as high as it could be inside this system at this current time and level of social advancement. No way to tell really.

On the other side of things when you compare us to our neighbors:

The Storm Tribes are a loose confederacy of nomad descendants.
The Mountain Horse are a group of City States.
The Harmurri are a kingdom? We don't actually know how they do things.
The Tin Tribes are groups of unconnected tribes.
The Nomads basically don't have a Cent score.
The Khemetri are God-Kings.
The Highland Kingdom are some kind of parliamentary kingdom, though they may have lost their parliament thing.
The Txolla run things like a confederation of villages, who'd all probably answer to a king if we weren't their liege.
The Thunder Speakers are a Theocracy.
The Thunder Horse are a City State federation.
The Saffron Islands are not really known, they may be a confederation of islands? Whatever they were probably got fucked over by Trelli conquering them.

Out of all of these only the HK are probably higher Cent than us due to the way IStO must have changed their society. That and their Hierarchy is also probably amazingly high.

And for all those people who may be new, or don't understand some mechanics and/or missed some AN info drops any country which is a group of city states or tribes is probably running negative to zero Cent. Out of all the people we know the only ones who likely have positive Cent are the Khem, Harmurri, Thunder Speakers and Highland Kingdom.

Further, Cent is used to resist disaster damage and Temp Econ damage. Interestingly a lot of our negative Cent neighbors would be tempted to adopt Mylathadysm for its Temp Econ Damage resistance due to Charity if they were run by real players. In the actual game we will probably see a surge in Mylathadysm spread after any kind of disaster which tanks our neighbors econ or if they have greedy trader problems.
 
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[X] [Attack] Hire out mercenary company
-[x] [Attack] Both
--[X] [Attack] To Freehills

I really do not like to over extend at such a bad time especially since AN has made very clear that trelli will give us a lot of problems unless we genocide them.
Adhoc vote count started by Reader of all on Oct 13, 2017 at 7:08 AM, finished with 115070 posts and 78 votes.
 
Further, Cent is used to resist disaster damage and Temp Econ damage. Interestingly a lot of our negative Cent neighbors would be tempted to adopt Mylathadysm for its Temp Econ Damage resistance due to Charity if they were run by real players. In the actual game we will probably see a surge in Mylathadysm spread after any kind of disaster which tanks our neighbors econ or if they have greedy trader problems.

This is an assumption that may not be true anymore. As our government system changed, the role of CENT in disaster resistance has diminished significantly. It is possible that all those other neighbours have adopted systems where Cent play no role anymore.
 
[X] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
[X] [SR] Food (Colonies and vassals transfer 1 Econ/turn each)
[X] [Attack] Hire out mercenary company
-[X] [Attack] Both
--[X] [Attack] To Freehills

I just realized something. If we do not take Trelli, then we will be forced to turn the other way. That means going further into the Lowlands, which will require (finally) building the dam
 
This is an assumption that may not be true anymore. As our government system changed, the role of CENT in disaster resistance has diminished significantly. It is possible that all those other neighbours have adopted systems where Cent play no role anymore.
Uh? Where the heck do you get the idea that the role cent plays in damage resistance has decreased? Do you mean that literally in the Temp Econ Resistance equation?




Well aside from that, we haven't had a climate disaster or anything since we got Temp Econ I think....

Actually no I think that drought we had a little while back, before the Trelli war caused Temp Econ damage and Econ Damage. And we resisted it through a combo of Sacred Forest and our Cent involved in the Temp Econ Damage resistance equation.
 
We should try to keep Cent high in the future, because in addition to his benefits, Cent also has the narrative effect of providing us with more information within our borders. Typically, More Information = Better Decisions
 
[X] [Attack] Hire out mercenary company
-[X] [Attack] Both
--[X] [Attack] To Freehills
 
We should try to keep Cent high in the future, because in addition to his benefits, Cent also has the narrative effect of providing us with more information within our borders. Typically, More Information = Better Decisions
Oh on this topic of better decisions and the related topic of early warnings to problems, I think we should consider how we want to raise our Intrigue value so we can continue to do Hunt Troublemakers.

That has the two fold effect of crunching up corruption, and finding problems we may not know we have. I'd personally like to get into a position where we can use that every other turn or so.
I'll have to think about that timing though.
 
As a side effect of this, avoiding war with the Khemetri.
Since when does control of contact with someone help us avoid war with them? E.g. we had perfect control of our contact with the Highlanders; didn't exactly help.


Tin Tribes, Storm Tribes, Freehills have to pass through Trelli if they want to interact with the Not!Med. This is another +3 Wealth if we want to tax them for +1 Wealth per turn. If instead we let free passage and diplomacy happen we might get +3 Diplo a turn?
If they accept such a tax, which I find rather unlikely. Note that this also might decrease our Wealth benefit from "borrowed" dominance.

Pirates are now a non-issue inside the Not!Black Sea.
No. Pirates are still just as much of an issue. We or our neighbors on the sea can still spawn them just like we have before.

Another Grand Docks for another two boat innovation rolls per turn. -1 Wealth per turn in all calculations above(+5 or +7 wealth per turn).

Possible boost in Trade power for our goods? Extra +1 to +2 Wealth.
You shouldn't expect a second Megaproject to give the same benefits as the first. Deminishment returns and all.
 
[X] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
[X] [SR] Food (Colonies and vassals transfer 1 Econ/turn each)
[X] [Attack] Hire out mercenary company
-[X] [Attack] Both
--[X] [Attack] To Freehills

I just realized something. If we do not take Trelli, then we will be forced to turn the other way. That means going further into the Lowlands, which will require (finally) building the dam


Yyeeep. That's why taking Trelli is overextension/mission creep: we have a lot of things worth doing and only so much actions to do them. And if we already have Mesopotama, well...we can compete with Khem wrt "breadbasket of region worth legends" once we utilize it properly.
Edit: like, Trelli are useful, sure, but their pricetag in actions required to hold is immensr for cultural, economical and geographical reasons; compare it to a lot of other options with immense potential but less attention rrquired for them not to blow up, like Dam or Ironworks 2 or GL or Indian Ocean trade network.
 
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That has the two fold effect of crunching up corruption, and finding problems we may not know we have. I'd personally like to get into a position where we can use that every other turn or so.
I'll have to think about that timing though.
Hunt troublemakers is only especially useful if we are willing and able to spend time dealing with the troublemakers once we found them. If we already have high-priority things to do, it is of minimal value.
 
False dichotomy. Trell investment is mainly in the form of Influence statpoints(and up to three Mains in the near term if we do a concerted culture push like we are advised to), which aren't in conflict with the Lowland agenda and actually encourages integration of subordinates which would fuel further Influence efforts like the Road issue had when it was finally brought to community attention.

Most of the stats being drained are coming from stats already in permanent overflow state, while Trell itself will FEED stat points via trade into the Influence Subordinate grinder to avoid Gilded Ages
 
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Since when does control of contact with someone help us avoid war with them? E.g. we had perfect control of our contact with the Highlanders; didn't exactly help.
Yeah. Cause we ignored the shit out of them. Diplomatic relations and treaties with Khem do work, as evidenced by the end of the Dragon War and them in the Games. All it takes right now for them to attack us through the colony is someone being stupid.

If they accept such a tax, which I find rather unlikely. Note that this also might decrease our Wealth benefit from "borrowed" dominance.
*shrug* No way to know on this one.

No. Pirates are still just as much of an issue. We or our neighbors on the sea can still spawn them just like we have before.
They become a non-issue because they have nowhere to escape to except for Freehills and we have enough strategic control that defeating them is much less difficult. Not a non-issue in that they never happen again.
As an aside the only neighbors we have which can generate pirates are West Ymar and Freehills. There are also very specific conditions to generate them(over martial if I remember correctly) which mean we can control when we spawn any.

You shouldn't expect a second Megaproject to give the same benefits as the first. Deminishment returns and all.
Yeah, if this was a normal game I might, but as a decently accurate representation of life it seems kinda silly for that to happen for that reason. Now we might not get its benefits since its in a vassal and that would make sense. *shrug*


Anyway I'm still not interested in going for them, want to loan to Freehills, but this is good criticism. Thanks for it!


Hunt troublemakers is only especially useful if we are willing and able to spend time dealing with the troublemakers once we found them. If we already have high-priority things to do, it is of minimal value.
Uh... it gives stability as a main which in my mind means that outside of a crisis it probably deals with the troublemakers it finds. And even inside a crisis it deals with some of them and then we have information on what needs doing so future actions are more effective.

Ignoring an action which gives us early warning sounds honestly very silly.
 
False dichotomy. Trell investment is mainly in the form of Influence statpoints(and up to three Mains in the near term if we do a concerted culture push like we are advised to), which aren't in conflict with the Lowland agenda and actually encourages integration of subordinates which would fuel further Influence efforts like the Road issue had when it was finally brought to community attention.

Most of the stats being drained are coming from stats already in permanent overflow state, while Trell itself will FEED stat points via trade into the Influence Subordinate grinder to avoid Gilded Ages

Did you miss AN note about it?

Like, you don't have to ethnically cleanse the city if you conquer it, just that it will attempt rebellion far more often if you don't.

He explicitly said there will be a choice (-ish) between cleansing and rebellions. Not necessarily one or another, maybe something in between is an option, but it is explicitly a landmine of a conquest for us.
 
Yeah. Cause we ignored the shit out of them. Diplomatic relations and treaties with Khem do work, as evidenced by the end of the Dragon War and them in the Games. All it takes right now for them to attack us through the colony is someone being stupid.
It doesn't matter why. What matters is that getting the strait merely decreases the effective date and between us and Khem, but that didn't magically prevent war or improve relations. At best it gives us the opportunity to build more bridges, at the cost of giving us more interactions that can cause conflict. Point is you don't get to call that "prevents war".
They become a non-issue because they have nowhere to escape to except for Freehills and we have enough strategic control that defeating them is much less difficult.
We had to spend multiple actions to catch pirates before. What part of controlling the strait do you expect to change anything?

Uh... it gives stability as a main which in my mind means that outside of a crisis it probably deals with the troublemakers it finds.
I mean, I'm sure it could do SOMETHING. Just not a lot on it's own; half a stability per main is only a quarter the stabilizing effect of EJ or festivals. If the action was really diffusing major problems I'd expect more than that.
 
@veekie we have never conquered a peer culture without factors which would make them welcoming before.
Txolla we freed from Xohyr, Thunder Twins we bailed out after meteor. Trelli conquest - of independent polity which has no damn reason to be grateful to us - is unprecedented for Ymaryn.

With AN explicitly saying more or less "guys well you don't have to genocide them but good luck keeping them under control otherwise" I am reasonably sure you severely underestimate how painful the cultural and economic friction will be.

Because if AN phrased it this way this is way beyond scope of "meh a couple of Main Influence".
Besides, "a couple of Main Influence" is not a thing we did...ever? Certainly not on a short notice.
 
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