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Paths of Civilization

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Dutch said:
I'm starting to think that without some kind of heroic intervention either IC or OOC we're going to shatter.
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*shrug* *eyes other life right over there across the pond*

Personally I can see pretty simple ways out of the shit being on fire, and we are fully capable of doing them so I don't personally experience this sentiment. But I can see where it comes from.

Rakuhn said:
That assumes that they haven't gained any prestige in the last several hundred years.
-We know that they came out of the Great War with more prestige than they started with
-We know that they got at least one prestige for every turn they were part of the games, while we sometimes netted zero thanks to poor rolls or not intervening in foreign wars.
-We know that they built their own games after we left
-We've recently lost some prestige to the Second Sons crisis
-We can believe that they've gone to war (and probably won) with local powers
-We can believe that they'be built multiple great projects

I don't want to risk proccing this situation while everything else is on fire.
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Question, how do we know that us going lower than them in prestige will trigger the war? Do we have a source from AN for this?
 
Narratively, the Ymaryn didn't give a shit about being King of the Hill. We just didn't want to give up our lands.
 
BungieONI said:
Question, how do we know that us going lower than them in prestige will trigger the war? Do we have a source from AN for this?
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Yes. When one polity exceeds the prestige of a polity that has the KotH status, the KotH has the choice wheteher to lay down the crown peacefully or defend it by force. When we succeeded the Thunder Horse, they had the choice whether to let us take the crown, or to fight for it.

Giving up the crown peacefully leads to, at the very least, additional prestige loss. And of course, if we later exceed the prestige of the new KotH, they have the same choice. And they might choose to go to war even if we had originally given up the crown peacefully.

It is a FUN! mechanic. And not one that I want to trigger
 
@Academia Nut - I've put together a list of errors / potential issues with the front page:
  • Forests are at 20/27.5; they should be 21/27.5 due to baths.
  • Econ is at 5 {6}. Not sure if it is an error, but if it isn't I'm not sure what it means. How can our temp econ be higher than our actual econ?
  • You have 4/2 = 4 for Luxury. Looks like this is just a typo; the second 4 should be a 2, but the total wealth income seems to have used the correct value there anyways. (I.e. we still have +2 Wealth income)
  • I assume one of our cities recovered this turn? That matches the [-6] Econ cost (-4 for our dole and -2 for non-free-city-upkeep). However, if so our wealth income is wrong (gilded age should give +4 income for 4 cities) and our culture income is wrong (it should be +4; we get +2 for 2 free cities and +4/2 for 4 cities total).
  • Econ Expansion income should be [+6]. Unless the dole isn't refunded for some reason?
  • Our Econ Expansion is almost certainly wrong. We should have had 22 LTE this turn after baths are accounted for, and currently we have 14 LTE. Even if LoA losses don't refund Econ Expansion (which would be VERY STRANGE), we only lost 6 Econ to that; that would still put us 2 LTE short.
  • Did we actually take 6 Econ drain? Are we the only ones that the Western Ymaryn are draining from, because if not I assume the damage should have been spread out over all drain-ees.
 
PrimalShadow said:
Why do people keep saying this!? Where are people getting the idea that PiA grants the vamp-ee Stability?
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It was a vague idea from way back when we first combined Pioneering Spirit with Sharing Circle to form Land of Opportunity and we really had no clue what was going on. Actions didn't even have stats back then.

There was some minor supporting evidence for it in regards to the way the Western Confederacy collapsed, but not enough to consider it more than a vague "oh it might".
OliWhail said:
What are some of those?
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Not starving ourselves in the future is probably #1. After that, spam Enforce Justice and minimize econ expenditure for a while while our provinces fix our econ.

I still really want to know what happened to all our LTE. That's honestly just as much of a hurt as the Stability loss. (Enforce Justice is really good at restoring Stability, even moreso than Mills/Settlements are at granting LTE)
 
OliWhail said:
What are some of those?
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One, take Myranyn Reforms. The government distributes the war equipment of the Yeomen, cut out that support and it comes down to illegal or near illegal personal hoards. Additionally the Urban Poor armies would rip them a new one through sheer numbers if they tried anything funny and the Yeomen would know it once they realized what was happening.
That will either kill Second Son or put it in a place where we don't have to essentially risk shooting ourselves in the dick to solve it.

Two, take financial innovation(need to actually change my vote to this, got sidetracked). Whatever innovation we get from that will forestall our currency crisis which has been put on hold with the Trelli Implosion. I have this confidence since I can take a look at the current narrative situation and see people terrified of another famine caused by people trying to make more gold or silver. They will thus look to other materials, possibly cheap iron, or if we get super lucky pure fiat. Either of those (non-precious medal coinage or fiat currency) will put that ugly to bed though fiat might cause problems because it is so outside the norm.

Three, take a value from Harmurri. It does not have the risk of schism from the Khem, and it more than likely will help make up the income we are losing with Rule of Gold gone.

Four, turn Iron Blooded into Steelblooded since we really need the Econ to grease the gears while we handle everything else.


Five, beyond that next update we should take at least a Secondary Expand Econ PSN and a React Sec EJ if they are available. My best guess is that we are within 5 points of our Max Cent (What I mean by this is the start of Yellow).
Taking a Sec EJ + Econ there gets our stab back up and means a double Main EJ on the next turn will be much more feasible since we will be in a better if not good place with Econ. (I need to think about this a little bit more and do some math to double check but it hangs together in my head on the first go around)
Thus depending on exact stats we can reach two greens and a yellow on Second son by midturn after this coming one. We also need to ask if FC's will continue doing Armament when we are at 2(+1).

Six, the other two secondaries can go to mills or Econ and a war mission to the pirates.

*scratches chin* I'm a bit tired (been up all night trying to study for a test today without much luck) but sounds right to me.

E: Anyhoo I just looked at the time and I gotta go. I'll see you folks later!
 
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[X] [Reform] Begin Harmysyn Reforms Event Chain
[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
[X] [PiA] Freehills (Social Value)
[X] [GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)

Okay, as we know, our horses are actually to little to ride mans into battle, so actually our light calvary is made of tiny man and patricians daughters, and Harmysyn reforms would actually improve our calvary tech.

I won't vote for arming the Urban Poor, because they aren't proper Ymarin citizens yet, only that crazy cauldron of famine and unrest. Hell, I'm still pissed that my love child, the Yeomen did all that fuss and gone away and founded their own kingdom!. So yes, I won't arm a bunch of refugees and outcasts and hope that they don't use their weapons to attack farmers for more food creating a actual civil war between the Urban Poor and the Yeomen.

I actually want to grab a social value from Freehills, because they're dealing with ex-slaves, refugees and all that, together with a government that is obliged to hear everyone, and in this case I really want the Freehills tech to deal with people desires to deal with the Urban Poor and Yeomen.

We can't spend wealth because it's finite, we can spend prestige because we produce it everyturn we hold King of The Hill. Another thing is that even if we lose 10 prestige we go to 13/14 subordinates, and with the reform we might fuse a lot of surbordinates together to ease our problems.
 
2xMachina said:
1 question: Why are we reforming Subordinates? What is the intention?
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My guesses:
1) Keep the Gilded Age going and try to overflow back into econ again.
2) We're not using our Prestige right now, might as well spend it on something
3) Possibly reset our reformers legacy?
4) Subordinates have caused us problems before, this might help deal with that problem
5) It's a mystery box, it could be anything!

I think they're being stupidly and needlessly reckless, but I can see why they'd like it.
 
2xMachina said:
1 question: Why are we reforming Subordinates? What is the intention?
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Basically these:

notgreat said:
2) We're not using our Prestige right now, might as well spend it on something
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notgreat said:
4) Subordinates have caused us problems before, this might help deal with that problem
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And also the fact that I'd rather not spend down our wealth, since we aren't getting much more of it easily without doing Plant <Plantname> actions, and we probably want to avoid them cause they burn LTE and Econ.
 
[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
[X] [Reform] Begin Both (-1 Stability, Both Events Started, ???)
[X] [PiA] Western Ymaryn (Possibly Pioneering Spirit)
[X] [GA] Financial innovation (-8 Wealth)

I'm not sure why people thought planting cash crops during a food shortage was a good idea. Anyway, can we please pick financial innovation? It might help deal with the crisis.
 
[] [Reform] Begin Myranyn Reforms Event Chain
[X] [Reform] Begin Harmysyn Reforms Event Chain
[] [Reform] Begin Both (-1 Stability, Both Events Started, ???)

[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded

[] [PiA] Western Ymaryn (Possibly Pioneering Spirit)
[] [PiA] Harmurri (Something trade related maybe [Not Center of Trade related])
[] [PiA] Mountain Horse (Probably an Honour Code)
[] [PiA] Khemetri (Probably a Spiritual Value, hard to tell compatibility with new religion)
[X] [PiA] Freehills (Social Value)
[] [PiA] Storm Tribes (Probably an Honour Code)
[] [PiA] Nomads (Honour Code)

[] [GA] Administrative innovation (-8 Wealth)
[] [GA] Financial innovation (-8 Wealth)
[X] [GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)
 
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[X] [Reform] Begin Harmysyn Reforms Event Chain
Most of our greatest warriors were female, let's give them a martial education.

[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
[X] [Iron] Gain the Steel Fist Legacy
Weee, approval voting.

[X] [PiA] Freehills (Social Value)
Need to keep a social eye on our adopted children O-.-O

[X] [GA] Financial innovation (-8 Wealth)
I would like the Subordinate Reform, but I also want to see if there's a Legacy from reaching 100 Prestige before anyone else.

Kiba said:
Narratively, the Ymaryn didn't give a shit about being King of the Hill. We just didn't want to give up our lands.
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Mind you, we do have an upgraded version of a Trait that said "We want to be the best of the best, no matter the cost". The Ymaryn might not care about other people being better, but they care about not the best they can be themselves.
 
[X] [Reform] Begin Harmysyn Reforms Event Chain

[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded

[X] [PiA] Freehills (Social Value)

[X] [GA] Financial innovation (-8 Wealth)
 
[X] [Reform] Begin Myranyn Reforms Event Chain
[X] [Reform] Begin Both (-1 Stability, Both Events Started, ???)
[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
[X] [PiA] Freehills (Social Value)
[X] [GA] Administrative innovation (-8 Wealth)
[X] [GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)
 
[X] [Reform] Begin Both (-1 Stability, Both Events Started, ???)
I'm feeling a little dangerous today...
[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
Legacy upgrades are pretty rare, even if I do lean heavily towards gaining a new value slot.
[X]Freehills (Social Value)
Super excited to see this one.
[X] [GA] Begin Great Dam megaproject in independent action track (-10 Wealth)
Dam-Kun! The Spring of Your Youth Blooms At Last!
 
veekie said:
This is expensive as hell, but the Urban Poor being happy enough to help rather than glare spitefully while they try to burn everything is pretty big.
We're going to need City Support policies.

@Academia Nut does this upkeep fall under Free City offset or not?
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Free Cities partially offset the upkeep cost, and one of their policies is likely to become self-support.

sidestory said:
What about the HK
How come we can't use PiA in the?
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No compatible traits that aren't copies of things you already have.

ctulhuslp said:
Actually, I have a big fucking question now. How does PiA trigger react to stability drop from PiA trigger?
I mean, if we get stab drop from accepting a lit of dudes,will our dudes go to WY? Is it the same for them taking foreign refugees?
@Academia Nut , could you clarify?
Also, how does PS interact with PiA? How would two PiA+PS countties interact?
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Generally they won't interact for timing reasons.
 
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