Certainly that'll help, but we won't be in charge of that anyway. We're gonna be busy just treading water getting our Stability back up. Provinces will be the ones managing everything for a couple turns. We're gonna have to Enforce Justice a ton and not spend any LTE on our Guild actions.
Just saying, Balanced policy used to be pretty settlement happy too.
As to narrative coherence... I suppose narratively it would've meant that patricians' sons started defecting as well, which would've been problematic. Fair enough.
A bit yes. Patricians also make their second sons the soldier son...but the Storm Tribes are cavalry based, so the Yeomen definitely brought some charioteers with them if they are winning.
Harmysyn's plan also includes concentrating the commanding power (officers) in the patrician class by using daughters to have sufficient forces to do that.
...which encourages noble daughters to pursue warfare if they want to social climb by means other than marriage.


You do not see how this can make the Second Son problem worse?
Giving women the right to join the army (if that's what this is actually what it's all about) would lead to a general expansion of their rights later and an equalisation.
Women have been allowed(or rather, not forbidden) to join the army and militia since forever. However, they usually cannot meet the physical strength standards required to rise through the ranks the normal way, while our elites use daughters for marriage rather than war.

In essence, the Harmysyn reforms are not about allowing female warriors, because we've always allowed those even as all the pressures squeezed them out. Its about creating a commissioned officer class which patricians can directly buy into commanding ranks, rather than climb through the ranks after buying into the cavalry.

Which has the side effect of allowing girls to enter war because if you can buy commissions, its less difficult for a female officer to prove herself to get promoted than for a female chariot archer to perform well enough to be promoted into an officer rank(where she'd have to deal with having an objectively lower draw weight on her bow and thus less range).
 
unopposed Ymaryn breakaway state.
Why should we care?

No seriously, why? If we keep in contact with them instead of proceeding with our normal state of not being very talkative, then what reason do they have to attack or oppose us? They left because they did not get what they wanted here on our side, so what would change that would make them come back to conquer us or something like that.

On top of the fact that they face exactly the same issues attacking us that we do Trelli or them, it not being in the slightest bit feasible or remotely easy.

For a lot of intents and purposes they are another life in this game as it said in the update.

E: Unless of course you are thinking about the precedent it sets. That's a different matter I'll have to think about.
 
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Why? They'll still Stab vampire us for other things, and present the terrifying precedent of an unopposed Ymaryn breakaway state.

We will suck them in return, creating polities with lots of ties and shared culture.
Pretty much perfect allies in a century or three, once initial resentment over breakaway/lack of support goes down.
They will also expand to the west, spreading Ymar culture far and wide, and so on. And will be a bother to nomads.

Like, ya folks wanted spread of anti-slavery sentiment? Well, that's more or less how we do it. We cannot control the world, but we can spread our culture and values far and wide.
 
Why couldn't you have done this when we were in the middle of fighting you, eh? Look what a mess you've made! Goddamned bandits and pirate gangs popping up everywhere! And now we can't even talk to anyone far away cause everything is on fire!
Probably because the Khemrites were keeping them afloat. Once the war ended their support did as well and everything went poof.
(says the idiot who knows nothing about geopolitics)
 
[X] [Reform] Begin Harmysyn Reforms Event Chain
[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
[X] [PiA] Freehills (Social Value)
[X] [GA] Administrative innovation (-8 Wealth)
[X] [GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)

Any problem with this vote? I'm kinda afraid of voting badly now.
 
It makes us look bad to the periphery. If those Westerners can break away and make their own way, then why can't Greenshore or Txolla or the Thunder twins? The King clearly can't or won't do anything about it...
So, precedent? That is a concern but I'll ask two questions. Can we do anything about them having broken away now and making that precedent you are concerned about? Can we conquer them again and put them under our heel and show that the Kings can do something?

The answer to both of those as far as I can tell is no. That leaves making friends with them since not doing so just seems like cutting off our nose to spite our face, since it cuts us off from any benefits they may give us.


[X] [Reform] Begin Harmysyn Reforms Event Chain
[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
[X] [PiA] Freehills (Social Value)
[X] [GA] Administrative innovation (-8 Wealth)
[X] [GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)

Any problem with this vote? I'm kinda afraid of voting badly now.
Harmysyn is probably not going to have much affect on the Second Son crisis, but it stands on its own merit as something we might want to do.
 
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[X] [Reform] Begin Myranyn Reforms Event Chain
[X] [PiA] Harmurri (Something trade related maybe [Not Center of Trade related])
[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
 
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First of all- does anyone have any idea what "Subordinate reform" actually does? Like, at all?

Anyway, I'm pretty happy with the breakaway state actually. They will get in a lot of trouble once the Nomads start Cavalry raiding and we don't need to care. We basically just made a March that we don't need to defend via Lord's Loyalty. They will eat our econ when we take Stability hits, but we can eat theirs when they take hits as well so it kinda evens out. I'd prefer not having them but eh, I'll take what I can get and we didn't lose anyone so no big deal really.

If that's the lesson you take from causing a plague because of not paying enough attention to stats, I don't know what to tell you.


(Unless that was sarcasm? If so, sorry; it went over my head.)
Actually, from the arguments, people were aware they were risking starvation. They just decided it was worth it for the +1 Martial since otherwise the Blackbirds had a chance of dying out and going by the numbers actually would've. (if, y'know, the free cities hadn't Passive Policied that problem away).
That and the decision to Blackbirds instead of Chariots, which has moderate narrative reasoning backing it up and jack shit mechanical.

Also because we didn't actually know the mechanics behind starvation and temp econ since we'd never risked it before.
 
Free Hills seems to have overtaken Khem for the PiA vote, and I had a thought: this has a strong chance of reacting poorly with Harmysyn Reforms. One is about democracy and separation of powers, the other is about consolidating power and control into a hereditary elite.

Just speculation, but a valid concern, I think.
 
Note:

I don't believe we receive any econ benefit from Ironwork, nor any of the metallurgy tech, until we hit mid-term. So we should see some additional income which will alleviate the problem of bread in the city.
 
[X] [Reform] Begin Myranyn Reforms Event Chain
[X] [PiA] Harmurri (Something trade related maybe [Not Center of Trade related])
[X] [GA] Administrative innovation (-8 Wealth)
 
[X] [Reform] Begin Harmysyn Reforms Event Chain

People.

For the love of all that is holy please don't try the double event chain!!!



Yes, it is tempting, yes it is shiny, but also YES IT WILL KILL US. Events almost always cost stability, and when they don't they cost actions. On top of the -1 stability here and the -1 stability we will get from suppressing the traders (or alternatively, the actions we will lose on war) and the actions which will be locked up feeding our cities and the stability we will be losing on the SS crisis and EVERYTHING ELSE, we do not have the time or structural soundness to be pursuing two reforms. We really, really, really don't.
 
What makes you think we have not already? Western Ymaryn has PiA which means they took Economy in exchange for Stability. That is why we are only at -1 right now.

ANYWAY!!!!

Since everyone seems to not have checked the list yet!

Gilded Age Bonus
[] [GA] Administrative innovation (-8 Wealth)
[] [GA] Financial innovation (-8 Wealth)
[] [GA] Begin Great Dam megaproject in independent action track (-10 Wealth)
[] [GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)
[] [GA] New materials tech (-10 Tech)

Look at it!!1!


[+] [GA] Financial innovation (-8 Wealth)

Hmm, having a neighbour with PiA may be a good thing. We now have the ability to bleed Econ to regain stability.

[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
which fits nicely with Steel Blooded econ engine

[X] [Reform] Begin Both (-1 Stability, Both Events Started, ???)
Stab is paid for by WY in exchange for Econ.

[X] [PiA] Western Ymaryn (Possibly Pioneering Spirit)
This is the trait that we lost, but always wanted to regain right?

[X] [GA] Financial innovation (-8 Wealth)
May solve our currency issue. Hopefully they invent fiat currency?
 
Stab is paid for by WY in exchange for Econ.
We already took the hit from them this turn and as far as AN has said such a hit can only happen once per turn. Additionally we are not sure that PiA negates the stab loss, and that is something we need to know.

Main point is that they won't be paying for much of anything next update.
 
[] [Reform] Begin Myranyn Reforms Event Chain
[] [Reform] Begin Both (-1 Stability, Both Events Started, ???)
[] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
[] [PiA] Freehills (Social Value)
[] [GA] Administrative innovation (-8 Wealth)
[] [GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)
 
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People do realize that paying 10 prestige will likely bring it lower than the Khem's prestige, thus forcing us to either go to war with them to keep our Great power status or give it up at a cost of further prestige (and maybe stability)? I really, really think we should choose something else.

For reference:, when we both had KotH
[] [KotH] Bring it (Declare Great Power War with the Khemetri, both remain King of the Hill status until the end of the war, winner retains it)
-[] Free Switch to Offensive Policy
-[] Free Switch to Defensive Policy
[] [KotH] Give way (-13 Prestige, -2 Stability, small amount of territory loss, all civs that had the 'Take the Crown CB' gain 'Weak' CB for the next 3 turns)
 
People do realize that paying 10 prestige will likely bring it lower than the Khem's prestige, thus forcing us to either go to war with them to keep our Great power status or give it up at a cost of further prestige (and maybe stability)? I really, really think we should choose something else.

For reference:, when we both had KotH
[] [KotH] Bring it (Declare Great Power War with the Khemetri, both remain King of the Hill status until the end of the war, winner retains it)
-[] Free Switch to Offensive Policy
-[] Free Switch to Defensive Policy
[] [KotH] Give way (-13 Prestige, -2 Stability, small amount of territory loss, all civs that had the 'Take the Crown CB' gain 'Weak' CB for the next 3 turns)
If I recall correctly we were in the high 70s when that happened and we gained significant amounts of Prestige since. I doubt that we will dip lower than them from this.
 
I'm starting to think that without some kind of heroic intervention either IC or OOC we're going to shatter.
 
If I recall correctly we were in the high 70s when that happened and we gained significant amounts of Prestige since. I doubt that we will dip lower than them from this.
That assumes that they haven't gained any prestige in the last several hundred years.
-We know that they came out of the Great War with more prestige than they started with
-We know that they got at least one prestige for every turn they were part of the games, while we sometimes netted zero thanks to poor rolls or not intervening in foreign wars.
-We know that they built their own games after we left
-We've recently lost some prestige to the Second Sons crisis
-We can believe that they've gone to war (and probably won) with local powers
-We can believe that they'be built multiple great projects

I don't want to risk proccing this situation while everything else is on fire.
 
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