Paths of Civilization

Carrnage · Oct 5, 2017

SpeckofStardust said:
*see's were losing rule of gold*
.
.
.
I do believe were going to be over our subordinate limit, while our subordinates are causing troubles.
...

Is that 5 crises?

SpeckofStardust · Oct 5, 2017

notgreat said:
Not even close, we'll be at 13/15. (Instead of our current 11/15)

Depends on how much prestige we lose.\ this turn for famine.

veekie · Oct 5, 2017

notgreat said:
My personal guess is it'd be something about manufacturing for the purpose of trade. A lot of Trelli's strength comes from being able to middleman our dominances, but equally important is its ability to take raw materials and form high-priced goods from them to sell to everyone else.

Looking at the Trade Table, the Trelli do manufacture Bronze, but the raw material->product conversion is a leap that comes later on in mercantilism.

VoidZero said:
I think bling are fairly prevalent in our temples, since KH decked their temple complex in fabulous gems last time we visted. Their clothing must also be tastefully exotic to show off their wealth without risking heat stroke; so plenty of skin, head piece, and golden linings?

Speaking as someone living in an equatorial country, less than you'd think.

The wealthy would go with light thin fabrics, but they do make cotton.
Metal ornaments are fine

Academia Nut said:
Reminder that your temp econ was at 6 at the start of the turn, and you spent 10 points. Temp Econ doesn't work the same as regular econ, but you took 3 points of Stability damage to an entirely man made famine.

Rule of Gold did not make it to the mid-turn.

That was how Temp Econ damage works?
Going to need to start tracking that as well.

Ghostdevil said:
Didn't AN say that the BB were fine since our cities or w/e produced martial?

After the vote locked.

Candesce said:
Hopefully people will stop listening to veekie after this.

I have never been able to convince anyone of anything they didn't already believe. For big decisions like the Trelli war or Phygrif, we went ahead despite whatever protests I made.

The beliefs here were that:
-Blackbirds were at risk, and we needed 3 Martial to save them.
--This is wrong because the Free Cities would have saved them, but literally nobody knew except AN.

-That the Temp Econ damage was gone, so the worst it'd do is bring us to 0.
--Everyone believed this. But it wasn't true.

-That the Admin roll for negative Econ was less difficult than it was, since we only needed to execute one of the income sources before the last cost happens.
--Still no idea how the admin roll works. AN probably isn't telling.

Please take that confirmation bias salt and go home with it.

BungieONI · Oct 5, 2017

Carrnage said:
Is that 5 crises?

Lessee:

True Crises
Second Son
Liquidity

Bad Shit
Urban Plague
Religious Change
Starvation
Pirates?

Maybe 6? Nice and cozy actually.

LuciDreamer · Oct 5, 2017

Malevolo said:
We given then life! They must pays us back. Truth be told, if Xohyr was around they would help us.

Yeah.... shame about that, really.

Heheh. Hahaha. HAHAAHAAAAAAAAAHAAAHAAA

No but really my heart goes out to the poor sods that were in Xohyr when we burnt it to the ground and salted the ashes.

PrimalShadow · Oct 5, 2017

veekie said:
That the Admin roll for negative Econ was less difficult than it was, since we only needed to execute one of the income sources before the last cost happens.

Some people brought this up, and were told "no, we have no indication that things work that way".

Glassware · Oct 5, 2017

veekie said:
-That the Admin roll for negative Econ was less difficult than it was, since we only needed to execute one of the income sources before the last cost happens.
--Still no idea how the admin roll works. AN probably isn't telling.

This is the cause of the salt about you, btw. You intentionally played with going to negative econ in your vote, even when we didn't understand about the temp econ damage. You gambled on a roll you had no idea what the outcome for would be, while we were in the process of developing organized religion, knowing that failure would cause starvation.

veekie · Oct 5, 2017

PrimalShadow said:
Some people brought this up, and were told "no, we have no indication that things work that way".

Glassware said:
This is the cause of the salt about you, btw. You intentionally played with going to negative econ in your vote, even when we didn't understand about the temp econ damage. You gambled on a roll you had no idea what the outcome for would be, while we were in the process of developing organized religion, knowing that failure would cause starvation.

Yes? I made it clear in the debate and the vote itself.

The voters agreed to it. We'd rather starve than risk Blackbirds. That is true.

That we didn't need to starve was crucial information we didn't have

Malevolo · Oct 5, 2017

Glassware said:
This is the cause of the salt about you, btw. You intentionally played with going to negative econ in your vote, even when we didn't understand about the temp econ damage. You gambled on a roll you had no idea what the outcome for would be, while we were in the process of developing organized religion, knowing that failure would cause starvation.

And? Veekie is responsible for his vote only, he doesn't make people vote for him, he doesn't make plans, if people are lazy of not doing their own math, and make a trust vote on Veekie? Well, Veekie isn't perfect, and it's ALREADY KNOW that veekie is really bad on admin votes.

PrimalShadow · Oct 5, 2017

@veekie - here is how I remember our exchange regarding starvation risk:

PrimalShadow said:
We've been told that Inflow happens at the same time as city expenditures, as part of income - and that if net income is positive, we need an admin roll to use it.

This has been the case since way back during the baby boom / population explosion; it was the subject of a number of discussions, IIRC.

You are basically leaving whether we starve or not up to the flip of a coin.

veekie said:
Correct. Its the only combo that keeps our military institutions intact while simultaneously meeting the Second Sons crisis resolution conditions by the mid turn, with luck on the Cent roll. We're projected to have Stability 2-3, and thus cannot hit negatives on expected losses alone.

The whole starvation thing is bad, but unless we get the Second Sons in check it'd only get worse.

This is not hindsight bias. This is me saying we may very well starve, you saying that is a cost you are willing to pay, and then us starving. No hindsight required.

notgreat · Oct 5, 2017

Glassware said:
This is the cause of the salt about you, btw. You intentionally played with going to negative econ in your vote, even when we didn't understand about the temp econ damage. You gambled on a roll you had no idea what the outcome for would be, while we were in the process of developing organized religion, knowing that failure would cause starvation.

It's not just that. Veekie has a consistent pattern of assuming the best in ambiguous admin situations. The Tax Crisis 1 is the most famous example, but even just last turn with the secondary Expand Econ which we only beat by a single vote.

But yeah, I'm actually not that salty since we need a ton of Centralization anyway so this just forces us to Enforce Justice more and faster. It's certainly annoying, but eh, I voted and argued against it. Can't do much more than that.

Kiba · Oct 5, 2017

Arguing about this is going to get us nowhere.

For now, we sit tight and wait for AN to give us an update so we know what's our situation is so that we can formulate a response that doesn't kill us in the end.

Malevolo · Oct 5, 2017

Kiba said:
Arguing about this is going to get us nowhere.

For now, we sit tight and wait for AN to give us an update so we know what's our situation is so that we can formulate a response that doesn't kill us in the end.

Get the hammers and the scythes because we will need to go farming!

notgreat · Oct 5, 2017

Kiba said:
Arguing about this is going to get us nowhere.

For now, we sit tight and wait for AN to give us an update so we know what's our situation is so that we can formulate a response that doesn't kill us in the end.

Yeah, but salt is fun, no?

@Academia Nut
For the guild quest (refugee econ), is that a total of 6 econ or is it 6 econ in a single turn?

PrimalShadow · Oct 5, 2017

Malevolo said:
Get the hammers and the scythesbecause we will need to go farming!

Get the judges and the hangmen, cause someone needs to get Justice-d!

Glassware · Oct 5, 2017

veekie said:
Yes? I made it clear in the debate and the vote itself.

The voters agreed to it. We'd rather starve than risk Blackbirds. That is true.

That we didn't need to starve was crucial information we didn't have

We knew that we didn't need to starve, though. The extra martial from Poppies was just cushioning, and in fact prevented us from meeting the resolution conditions for Second Sons.

Malevolo said:
And? Veekie is responsible for his vote only, he doesn't make people vote for him, he doesn't make plans, if people are lazy of not doing their own math, and make a trust vote on Veekie? Well, Veekie isn't perfect, and it's ALREADY KNOW that veekie is really bad on admin votes.

It's important to remind them every time they blindly vote for veekie that doing so has and will continue to screw us because he is not to be trusted on admin matters. Like it or not his vote has disproportionate influence.

BungieONI · Oct 5, 2017

notgreat said:
Yeah, but salt is fun, no?

As far as I can tell, Your Mileage May Vary for this.

Though that's just me.

Malevolo · Oct 5, 2017

Glassware said:
It's important to remind them every time they blindly vote for veekie that doing so has and will continue to screw us because he is not to be trusted on admin matters.

But we say it every damn time, i only vote for veekie on Admin when i'm lazy!

veekie · Oct 5, 2017

Glassware said:
We knew that we didn't need to starve, though. The extra martial from Poppies was just cushioning.

We didn't. As far as we knew at the time it was up to the pirates Martial roll to determine whether we lost the Blackbirds unless we found 3 Martial to bring us past the war losses threshold.

Information recieved after vote lock doesn't count you know.

Malevolo · Oct 5, 2017

veekie said:
Information received after vote lock doesn't count you know.

Funny enough AN confirmideish that low cent is one of the cause of low information.

Glassware · Oct 5, 2017

veekie said:
We didn't. As far as we knew at the time it was up to the pirates Martial roll to determine whether we lost the Blackbirds unless we found 3 Martial.

Information recieved after vote lock doesn't count you know.

We were at low martial but were about to gain martial due to taking More Blackbirds. Have we ever lost more than two martial in a single war action?

PrimalShadow · Oct 5, 2017

Glassware said:
We were at low martial but were about to gain martial due to taking More Blackbirds. Have we ever lost more than two martial in a single war action?

To be fair, without poppies or the city support, we would only have had 2 Martial; a bad roll would have lost us there blackbirds there.

I just object to trying to keep the blackbirds when it means we STARVE.

BungieONI · Oct 5, 2017

Glassware said:
We were at low martial but were about to gain martial due to taking More Blackbirds. Have we ever lost more than two martial in a single war action?

I do believe we did last turn. Or sometime in the last three or four updates and it was either against the pirates or Trelli. Can't remember.

VoidZero · Oct 5, 2017

Glassware said:
We were at low martial but were about to gain martial due to taking More Blackbirds. Have we ever lost more than two martial in a single war action?

BungieONI said:
I do believe we did last turn. Or sometime in the last three or four updates and it was either against the pirates or Trelli. Can't remember.

Does great power war count? We had a chain war with the east, east south, and then south west; lost about 15-ish martial?

OliWhail · Oct 5, 2017

BungieONI said:
Is it weird I'm not particularly salty about much of anything right now, thread?

Yep

Candesce said:
So we also would have needed to skip the Observatory. Joy.

Or would have skipping More Blackbirds been enough?

Skip blackbirds, expand Econ.

Paths of Civilization

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Seven gremlins in a trench coat

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