Paths of Civilization

BungieONI · Aug 4, 2017

Klaus said:
Given how different the iron age social and economic situation is compared to modern politics, I'd call that a bug rather than a feature. What would have happened if we'd tried to go full capitalist from the beginning, when we didn't even have money? Or given up our famine resistance by abolishing the government food administration?

Oh Crow no. *shudder*

Everything would have gone up in flames faster than aerosolized ClF3.

kalugin · Aug 4, 2017

[X] [Pox] Yes (Khemetri gain knowledge of how to do the Sacred Warding, the People gain Predictive Astrology)
[X] [Iron] Allow finished goods to be traded
[X] [PDN] Majorly push forward forests (Main Expand Forests, -2 Centralization)
[X] [React] Attempt to root out problems (Main Enforce Justice)
[X] [React] Reorganize army and hunt deserters (Found Mercenary Company + Sailing Mission (anti-pirate))
[X] [PiA] Khemetri (Probably Spiritual Value)
[X] [PiA] Highlanders (Probably In Service to Order)

Golgotha · Aug 4, 2017

[X] [Pox] Yes (Khemetri gain knowledge of how to do the Sacred Warding, the People gain Predictive Astrology)
[X] [Iron] Allow finished goods to be traded
[X] [PDN] Majorly push forward forests (Main Expand Forests, -2 Centralization)
[X] [React] Attempt to root out problems (Main Enforce Justice)

Concho117 · Aug 4, 2017

BungieONI said:
*looks at hand*

*hand is suddenly missing*

"I've not liked nobles for a long time?"

"I'm just not very vocal about it most days."

*shrug, chews hand*

Itadakimasu. *bows, walks away*

*looks at stump*

"Did... did you just bite my hand off?"

*inaudible screeching*

Klaus said:
Given how different the iron age social and economic situation is compared to modern politics, I'd call that a bug rather than a feature. What would have happened if we'd tried to go full capitalist from the beginning, when we didn't even have money? Or given up our famine resistance by abolishing the government food administration?

You have a point that Iron Age politics do not correlate exactly with modern politics. However, they are useful guidelines as to how people vote. For example a more Leftist party will vote for more centralization and government control of the Guilds and Traders while a Capitalist party might choose to develop currency or distribute land. People will vote according to their own bias regardless, and the political parties aren't completely serious either which removes many of the sources of conflict. They could also reduce the amount of salt in the thread through self-policing.

Honestly as long as they don't become too serious and keep the fact that Ymaryn is an Iron Age polity in mind it's all really just harmless fun.

veekie said:
And they will plant it to be the very best. You will see villages competing with the next village for whose forest is prettier.

Oi, I work hard to generate it by persuasion and (attempted) reasoning.

It'd be so much easier if all I did was wave a flag and make promises!

Seems like a fair balance. I do still prefer more wall policies, but the Gyms and baths will be built!

Incidentally, the Gyms we refer to here are actually more similar to pokemon gyms than modern ones. Places to gather, for promising youths to be taught by seniors, for people to get swole and philosophical.
Its a proto Academy

I support secular education!
I really want to get modern-like universities and research institutions as soon as possible.

ctulhuslp · Aug 4, 2017

veekie said:
And they will plant it to be the very best. You will see villages competing with the next village for whose forest is prettier.

I wonder if Artisan Competition includes forest-measuring contests.

veekie said:
Incidentally, the Gyms we refer to here are actually more similar to pokemon gyms than modern ones. Places to gather, for promising youths to be taught by seniors, for people to get swole and philosophical.
Its a proto Academy

"Place to get swole and philosophical" is wonderful phrase.

BungieONI · Aug 4, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
"Place to get swole and philosophical" is wonderful phrase.

Let me shoot this one at you:

"Philosophical meat heads."

fictionfan · Aug 4, 2017

@Academia Nut : With Personal Stewards of Nature can we expect that the temples will be holding lessons on gardening and providing the tools and seeds to do it?

Abby Normal · Aug 4, 2017

Analysis and Diffcheckers -- Expanding Diplomacy

Diff Checker (Civ Sheet)
Diff Checker (Civ Sheet BBCode)
@Academia Nut @veekie @BungieONI @zamin

Not many changes this turn, since its just a "from sub-turn to proper midturn choices" update, but a few interesting ones:

Academia Nut said:
Diplomacy 2 [+5]

International Games is showing just how strong it can be, giving a full +4 diplo/turn on its own. Pretty ridiculous and amazing

Academia Nut said:
Martial 18 {23}

-2 Martial from pirate deserters

Academia Nut said:
Wealth 5 [+6-3]

Pirates! How dare they slightly lower our ridiculous wealth generation!

Academia Nut said:
Prestige 68

Also, no prestige boosts or losses, so its likely that either the International Games prestige pool wont apply until the end of turn, or it's a start of turn thing and wont apply until the next main turn actions.

Academia Nut said:
Statuses
King of the Hill: You are the most prestigious polity around, gaining you +1 Diplomacy a turn, but all other groups gain the 'Take the Crown' casus belli
Baby Boom: Converting 7 Econ Expansion to 7 Econ a turn
Population Explosion: Converting 7 Econ Expansion to 7 Econ a turn
Efficient Economy: +1 Wealth/turn while above Econ 10
Minor Pirate Group: -1 Wealth/turn until hunted down

New, and unfortunate, status. Makes me wonder how bad a "major pirate group" would be... especially back when the Hathatyn had that issue, well before wealth split off, or any number of other tech and social advances...

Academia Nut said:
Participants: Khemetri, Trelli, Metal Workers, Swamp Folk

International Games listing now has a participants list.

Academia Nut said:
The Northerners were a very strange people, but once Remaharmati got to see one of their major cities when it wasn't on fire, he got a better look at them and found them... very strange, but also strangely appealing in several ways.

I approve of this as a descriptor for our People

Academia Nut said:
Finally though he decided that he just had to ask.

"Do your people not suffer from the pox?" The prince asked through his translator.

Huh...you know, they wouldn't know about that, would they...

Academia Nut said:
There was some back and forth as his intent got through, the translator showing several scars to demonstrate which pox exactly that he meant.

XD And of course where for them there's only the one pox worth talking about, for us who are immune, there are probably several minor poxes that the average Person wouldn't know what he was talking about.

Academia Nut said:
Eventually the rather surprising answer came back as, "Our ancestors received a ward against the pox from the gods in centuries past. It is our most powerful and sacred magic, and it is also extremely dangerous if mishandled."

The information that the Northerners had a ward against the pox caused the entire delegation to stop dead in their tracks in amazement.

I suppose by this point Bynwyn has definitely been turned into a God, or part of one or several, yeah

Maybe he's (part of) the God of Magic and Queerness AN has mentioned? And yeah, for all that the People take it for granted now, being immune to smallpox is a big fucking deal.

Academia Nut said:
What then followed was a deep discussion between the prince and the priests accompanying him. Finally they said, "We will have the royal court astrologers brought here the next time we come to teach you everything we know about the heavens and divining the future if your priests will teach us this magic."

Huh... i like the emphasize there, in that astrology is clearly very important to them; religious focus on the Heavens, full belief in its predictive power, etc. If its really just Astrology, then its honestly not that useful...but hopefully/presumably it includes more practicable applications of knowledge of hte heavens; if nothing else hopefully our priests will get into arguments over it when they come to teach us

Academia Nut said:
A ward for the pox? Such magic would be invaluable in saving lives... in more ways than one. One of Remaharmati's younger brothers had been badly afflicted in his youth - well, several had, but the worst cases were dead - and the experience had left him badly disfigured. Rather than taking up any duties, he had retreated from public life and into the royal harem, where he was... well, were he not of divine blood he would have been dealt with already. If Remah became king he would strangle his brother himself just to keep the man away from the throne. He'd let the affliction get to him and had become as ugly on the inside as he perceived himself to be on the outside. And from the position of prince, Remah was of the opinion that more than a few disasters in the history of his people had come from promising princes perishing early, and some of them being twisted by the demons of disease. Reducing that by warding against the pox... the possibilities were incredible.

Huh... an interesting personal tale to put a face on the Pox. Also, some of the issues with full hereditary rule

Academia Nut said:
Because of their invitation to the Games, the Khemetri know of the Sacred Warding. Share the knowledge with them?
[] [Pox] Yes (Khemetri gain knowledge of how to do the Sacred Warding, the People gain Predictive Astrology)
[] [Pox] No (-2 Diplomacy, Khemetri feel snubbed)

Yes. There's little reason not to. We want to be friends with them (and this will give us even more "the royal family trusts and likes us" than our previous actions, and in a more lasting way), their tech should give us more practical applications as well, or at least help in developing them ourselves (navigation by stars is great for boats, among other things...), and SacredWarding, while powerful, is not that bad to give away. Plus, even leaving aside more realpolitik-y concerns, at least most of us want the People to be good people.

Academia Nut said:
Elsewhere, the new heir to the throne of the People was working on the list of things that needed to get accomplished in the near future. At around the top of that list was the fact that a few hundred warriors and a dozen ships had gone missing.

...Well thats not good D=

Academia Nut said:
"The same young fools - or at least the same sort - that triggered the riot and fire seem to have decided that they want to go be pirates and raiders. We've officially warned the Trelli that they may be attacking isolated settlements and traders, and that if they catch them they can do whatever the wish as these renegades have shunned our protection," one his investigators told Hertythyn. "Oh! They've also reported back their interest in attending the games."

-2 Martial
Minor Pirate group preying upon your shipping, -1 Wealth until dealt with (Requires sending a Sailing Mission to find them, followed by a War Mission or deployment of mercenaries to deal with them

Damn...looks like our red martial was way more of a problem than we'd expected :/ ...and/or the HK intrigue attacked us. Still not sure how likely that theory is...

Academia Nut said:
"Well that's something at least."

"The Swamp Folk and Metal Workers have also reported interest in attending. The Storm Wolves don't see the point, and the Thunder Horse snubbed our delegate. Incidentally, both of those latter two groups are currently making gains against the former two, so that may have something to do with it," a second man reported to the heir.

Yay, more participants than i personally expected!

Interesting that the Storm Wolves didn't even bother trying it out, and that the Thunder Horse still hate us for humiliating them in that last war (or maybe still from the sack of Xohyr?). And yeah, not surprised that the ones losing a war want to get closer to the strongest guys around with the best mercenaries... on that note, why haven't the Swamp Folk asked to hire our mercenaries yet?

Academia Nut said:
At that Hertythyn grunted in dissatisfaction. That was probably going to cause issues in the future. Nothing quite like having attractive youths coming over to talk with your elites about sob stories from home to whip up sentiment to do something.

Huh...this bit of fluff looks like its showing what our "New CBs" from Pride of Acceptance will be: CBs on nations attacking Games Participants, and/or maybe nations we receive refugees from in the last turn or two, and/or maybe trading partners in general? CBs to defend nations whose people will be able to whine to the People about being attacked?

Academia Nut said:
Hopefully it wouldn't be his problem though. Wars were a stupid way to sort things out. They just made messes that poor clerks had to go and clean up afterwards.

Alas, looks like Hertythyn (the dice rolling his chance to do so) decided against attacking the HK. Good to know in advance at least, and we have a decent chance of still having the CB after he dies.

Academia Nut said:
Although, reflecting upon some of the discussions being made, he considered the right to club some of the People upside the head an option he wished he could resort to.
Looking at these quests, i don't blame him D=

Patricians - Objective: Build Chariots within 2 turns. Success: +1 Culture, Failure: -5 Wealth
Guild - Objective: Build Glasswords within 3 turns. Success: +1 Tech & Culture, Failure: -3 Tech
Traders - Objective: Obtain Leading status or better in a new trade good within 3 turns. Failure: -1 Stability
Yeomen- Objective: Obtain a new province and have 50% or greater trails coverage within 2 turns. Success: +1 Stability
Priests- Objective: Build a Level 2 Temple within 3 turns. Failure: -1 Legitimacy

in order:
Patricians: Seriously guys, fuck off! We don't need Chariots! Hell, we just integrated a chariot heavy force from the stallions! And really, a single culture? We get that much from the actual action! The 5 wealth will hurt, but i'd say we just ignore this one, especially since we'd need to lower martial first.
Guild: Assuming that means "Glassworks", that seems odd to me. The fluff later says its cause there's not enough glass for stuff, but...then why do we have it as dominant still?

I guess we just have so much internal need, and so much external demand, that we can produce enough to dominate the market but still not have enough for internal use... The success reward is better, cause tech is a bit rare, and we have 3 turns for it, and its a guild action, so its not hard to fit in. The Forest slot is harder...but we just gained an amazing new trait ability for that, so... Yeah i think we should go for it. Not sure if a secondary is enough or not... If its a main, its -2 econ, -2 tech, -1 forest, +2 Wealth, +4 culture, and +innovations. Since we have a tech refund, the quest makes it -2 econ, -1 forest, +2 wealth, +5 culture... and +3 tech if we include "not failing"
Traders: This one would be a good quest...if it had a reward instead of just a failure penalty :/ Still, we'll "possibly" get this just from opening up iron tools trade, and if not probably just need a main in poppies, or the northern trade post, to succeed. Among other things, every other action can be solved with a single main action, which suggests that this can as well. And we have 3 turns, which makes it much easier.
Yeomen: A reasonable request, and it has a very good bonus and no failure condition...i like you Yeomen (or rather i like the dice that decided you'd be nice in your quest

). Still, a tight turn limit...
Priests: Uuugh, more quests with no reward... still, we probably need a lv 2 temple sooner rather than later...and either choice for location is useful; Dragon's Graveyard gives +1 mysticism/turn, and Sacred Forest helps ensure it remains the religious head. Either way we gain RA and pilgrimage power, and get better at resisting foreign religions.
Overall, the quests system is going to be a pain...but its also going to make the quest better i think

Academia Nut said:
The elites were complaining that the infantry were receiving all the support and they wanted more chariots for their sons to ride around on instead of doing other things and absorbing large amounts of luxuries. Well, given that bored young men with too much combat training and not enough to do had already sparked off a minor pirate problem, just increasing the funding for chariots was out of the cards. They would have to prune things down or introduce more discipline.

Seriously, fuck the elites. The worst quest!

Academia Nut said:
Of course the traders were sort of happy that the elites were starting to buy more stuff locally, but their returns were better elsewhere so they were clamouring for the People to either increase production on something somewhere or get in on other trade channels. While the priests were glaring daggers at them over the idea that maybe there were some outsiders who no one would mind being sold to the Trelli because they were bad people anyway, there was another problem with the traders.

What the hell traders! Stahp! No Slavery! ...Considering they have been trading metal against regulations, i am now afraid that they've been circumventing the slavery ban too...we definitely want a level 2 temple and the additional RA that comes with it soon, so yay for hte priests quest for pushing us to do so

Academia Nut said:
Selling iron the People made to outsiders was forbidden, but with the Metal Workers having their own mines and production there were a few traders who were staying within the letter of the law and flagrantly violating the spirit by buying up Metal Worker iron and reselling it elsewhere. Given that the secret was definitely out now, and the Khemetri were going to pursue the ability themselves, there was a lobby within the traders to simply lift the old restrictions and allow iron to be traded. Some even suggested that by doing it themselves they might suppress the spread of iron outside their control. They had the best quality because of experience, so if it was cheaper to buy from the People than to natively develop the smelting and then look for ore deposits. Not everyone was convinced... but then again it would probably keep them from doing something further stupid and get them to shut up about things.

What to do about iron trade?
[] [Iron] Crack down on resale (-1 Stability)
[] [Iron] Leave it be
[] [Iron] Open up the market for the metal
[] [Iron] Allow finished goods to be traded

Well that answers the question of when the iron trade question is going to come up. And yeah, i think we should go full to finished goods on this. The reasons in the update are good, and we'll get to know what exactly dominance in a strategic good does for you (AN said it was powerful when we mentioned the Trelli having it in Tin), and our new Pride in Acceptance boosts "outward tech spread" anyway, so trying to keep it secret would be really hard even without the Metal Workers, the Highlanders, and soon the Khemetri...

Academia Nut said:
Meanwhile the guilds were interested in expanding a number of operations, most notably glass since there was a high demand for the material for various other things - art and the storage of materials like vitriol or quicksilver - that had not entirely been filled before now. The priests were glaring daggers at them because their demands were going to rapidly start threatening the forests.

Still a little confused by the need for more glass while we dominate in it...but at the same time, it makes more sense now that i thought about it. We dont have enough production...but everyone else has such shitty or nonexistant production that we still dominate. Also, more tech chances are always good. But yeah, going over the forest limit is bad. We'd almost certainly lose stability and have a religious freakout if we did.

Academia Nut said:
According to them, if the guilds wanted all the charcoal and timber heavy projects they were pursuing they should grow the forests some more.

Luckily we just got a new value upgrade that lets them do that

Academia Nut said:
he traders chimed in and suggested that a trading post in the far north would not only be able to tap into new markets, but there were those distant tales of giant trees. Imagine what the People could do with access to those markets!

The traders of course took the opportunity to extol their preferred project

...Though they are right, that trading post would be nice, and we'll hopefully have another merc company soon...

Academia Nut said:
The yeomen farmers were only asking for the relatively tame request of more land to farm and that the trails be in good enough condition to take their produce to market.

The yeomen are (currently) good people

Academia Nut said:
Feeling ignored, the Priests were stating that the temples needed to be improved in order to placate the wrath of the gods, who were not impressed by the bellicose and proud attitude the People had taken in recent generations.

Of course, some of that might be jealousy over the powers the priests of the Khemetri had, now that they were in communication with them, and had a better idea about them. While obviously the People's gods favoured locally, the priests of the Khemetri were backed up extensively by their king, and the People were so welcoming of others that the priests were clearly worried.

And once more i enjoy how the thread arguments get integrated into the narrative

Also, while they are certainly biased, we should be wary of that warning about the Khemetri religion influencing/overtaking ours. More reason to want that level 2 temple and the RA that comes with it...

Academia Nut said:
Cosmopolitan Acceptance -> Pride in Acceptance
The People see not outsiders but fellow humans in need of assistance, and are always willing to offer aid, knowing that even when friendship is uncertain the act of offering is a cleansing one.
Pros: Enhanced absorption of new ideas, +1 social value from current or historical neighbours, whenever a neighbour suffers a stability drop have the option to also suffer a stability drop in exchange for a large boost to Econ and technological and social advancement by absorbing especially large numbers of people, the first Econ boost a turn is free and the second only has a chance of causing a stability drop rather than a guaranteed drop, massively increased inward tech spread, new CBs
Cons: Many think you weak, no longer have the option to turn away the first two boosts, sometimes you get values you didn't expect, increased outward tech spread

!!! Holy shit that's an amazing bonus...
Differences:
-Instead of the first stab drop from refugees being half price, the first is free and the second is half price. Meaning 4 econ for 0.5 stab on average. super powerful! Among other things, single refugee drops are just free, for semi-random background +2 econ.
-Of course, that comes with us needing to take at least that many...which combined with the new system (check...2? analyses ago in the AN quote section) to require us to suffer -4 temp econ damage and -4 econ expansion slots whenever there's at least 2 refugee procs in a turn. With our current econ system, thats only -2 econ if we have >=3 centralization, but still something to be wary of. Low econ is dangerous now.
-Massively increased inward tech spread: Really powerful on paper, though not the best considering we're usually ahead... Still, we're often very lopsided in tech, so this helps us catch what we left behind (like pottery so long ago), and with the Khemetri around we now have a peer to tech steal from

-(regularly) increased outward tech spread: Really dangerous for us with our major tech bonus...especially with the games. Still, it makes choices like trading iron easier, since its harder to keep them secret anyway, so we might as well reap the rewards for them.
-New CBs: Always useful for us. I speculated earlier that this was hinted at in the fluff, and that we get CBs to defend nations whose people can give "sob stories" about their defensive wars to us. That is, we'd have a CB against the Storm Wolves and Thunder Horse right now. Whether thats "defend participants in games", or "defend trading partners", or some other criteria i dont know. Might even be/include "get CB against sources of refugee waves", either limited to war refugees or refugees in general.

Academia Nut said:
Wildcat Prospecting merges into Divine Stewards -> Personal Stewards of Nature
Through the blessings of the spirits and the efforts of the People in individual and whole, the land is reshaped, and its management and protection is a good above all others. No effort is to great when it comes to the stewardship of the land, and many pursue their own little projects where it does not conflict with the symphony of the whole
Pros: Bonuses to all actions relating to land management, bonuses when fighting on own terrain, additional Econ and Stability whenever completing a land management type Megaproject, may spend Stability to double the effort of megaprojects and in defensive wars, certain projects may receive additional actions at the midturn at the cost of Centralization
Cons: Additional strife caused by deliberate environmental disruption unless it is for the long term betterment of the land, or loss of territory to others

!!! Looks like upgrading CA to PiA gave a secondary benefit by merging in Wildcat! Also a really powerful upgrade. Only the one difference, adding in the "certain projects may receive additional actions at the midturn at the cost of centralization", which is amazing. It gives us a consistent extra action chance and a consistent centralization drop, and if this turn is any indication the "certain projects" are 1. land management and 2. really useful projects, especially as reactions. We have city-busting, forest-raising, and econ saving all available. Mines might be available when we have them, not sure. Alas, only primary needs are allowed, we cant do, say, vineyards. Also, this turn at least there's no "no" option on the vote...that might be an oversight, but if not, then we have a minimum of -1 centralization a turn, which is really fucking dangerous. With our gov, we'd need to take an average of +1 centralization a turn or risk collapse. So hopefully thats an oversight (and i asked AN that in my question section). Still, it certainly has the best narrative for centralization drop yet. AN described it as "granting additional authority to [go out into the woods and take care of things] without central oversight". So not full land ownership or anything, just extra management rights. Still potentially a problem at extremes, but not much at all imo.

Academia Nut said:
Choose a new group to draw a PiA value from
[] [PiA] Khemetri (Probably Spiritual Value)
[] [PiA] Thunder Horse (Probably Honour Value)
[] [PiA] Highlanders (Probably In Service to Order)
[] [PiA] Trelli (Probably trade related)
[] [PiA] Swamp Folk (Probably Honour Value)
[] [PiA] Nomads (Probably Honour Value)

Still so sad we dont have greater good as a choice...
The three big choices i've seen people go for are the Khem, the HK, and the Trelli.
Khem: Spiritual values can be powerful, and its possible we could get one focused on the heavens, and increase our study of the stars. On the other hand, we have warnings from our Priests about their religion influencing ours, and they almost certainly have spiritual traits we dont want (god king, for example)
Highlanders: Order = stabiltiy, and stability is king. On the other hand,AN says "The Highlanders can be very rigid about the rules and about enforcement." so its almost certainly oging to make things worse for people who stand out. That'll be lessened by our other values, but still a problem. Also, with Personal Stewards, we can spam enforce justice way easier now, sostab gain is less of a priority
Trelli: Center of Trade would give us ridiculous wealth generation, and give us CBs we can use if we have to war someone but dont have one. It would also open us up to stability hits, and probably make our faction quests for the traders and guilds worse... Honestly if we went with this i'd be hoping for a trade value other than center of trade. Maybe something boosting trade missions, or borrowing power from neighbors? Hmm...

Overall, i was originally all for the highland kingdom...but now we have good stability options again, so... i dont know. I'll probably approval vote for HK and Trelli because i dont want khemetri.

Academia Nut said:
Choose a Personal Divinity reaction
[] [PDN] Push forward forests (Sec Expand Forests, -1 Centralization)
[] [PDN] Majorly push forward forests (Main Expand Forests, -2 Centralization)
[] [PDN] Bit more black soil (Sec Black Soil, -1 Centralization)
[] [PDN] Lots more black soil (Main Black Soil, -2 Centralization)
[] [PDN] Push forward farms (Sec Expand Econ, -1 Centralization)
[] [PDN] Massively push forward farms (Main Expand Econ, -2 Centralization)

We have high econ and expansion right now, so forest is the only thing that makes sense.
* S: -2 Econ, -1 Econ Expansion, grows forest, +2 Econ next turn if in settled territory and controlled, potential discoveries, +0.5 Sustainable Forest
* M: -3 Econ, -3 Econ Expansion, grows forest, +4 Econ next turn if in settled and controlled territory, improved odds of success, other effects, +1 Sustainable Forest
So secondary would give us +1 EE, net -0 Econ after a turn, and half a forest. Main gives +0 EE, +1 net econ, 1 forest, and better discovery odds and "other effects"
So the real issue is whether the cent drop is worth it. If taking enforce justice, i think Main is a no-brainer. Without it, it drops us to 2 cent, which is a little low...but probably safe with an admin hero whose chances of taking EJ next turn is "Fairly High", depending on what else we do, per AN.

Academia Nut said:
Reaction for the turn
[] [React] Stand down army (Main Retraining)
[] [React] Reorganize army and hunt deserters (Found Mercenary Company + Sailing Mission (anti-pirate))
[] [React] Pre-emptively meet forest demand (Main Expand Forest)
[] [React] Meet yeoman demands (Sec New Settlement + Sec New Roads, meets Yeoman faction demands)
[] [React] Meet priest demands (2xSec Temple)
-[] [React] Sacred Forest
-[] [React] Dragon Graveyard
[] [React] Keep Working on the Docks (Adds another action towards the Grand Docks MP)
[] [React] Attempt to root out problems (Main Enforce Justice)

Ooh, lots of good options...and it looks like the reaction actions are going to be mainly "Faction quest responses + major challenges" for our slate of options...The four that jump out at me (and from skimming discussion, others) are the anti-pirate one, the yeoman demands, the docks, and the enforce justice.
Anti-pirate: Hunting pirates is important, especially in light of hte first games where 2 or 3 of the participants come via the sea. Also the admin hero might not do that next turn if we dont. Plus, merc companies are useful to have as a general rule imo

Yeoman gets us a new province, maintains us on centralization, and gets us a free stab. Its nice, and i'm not sure when we'll fit it in otherwise...but honestly the others are more important.
Docks: AN says we have 1-2 progress left, so this is not guaranteed to finish it. If it was i'd go for it for sure. As is, not important enough when we'll finish it next turn for sure.
Enforce Justice: With our new Personal Stewards, this is incredibly important and useful and powerful. With our corruption issues, this is incredibly important. With our admin hero this is incredibly useful. But...the chances of our hero taking thsi are fairly high, and likely even higher if we take main forests and drop our centralization down some. So i think we can rely on the hero for this

So on this front i suggest we go with the anti pirate option.
Fake edit: Also, AN confirmed that this would spin off Yenyna's Dragon Banner into a merc company, which would be good to maintain, since iirc it was a core of elites with a more horse based focused. Might increase Cavalry development.

Academia Nut said:
The one in the lowlands needed to make a new province.

Confirmation on the province location for the yeoman choice.

Academia Nut said:
1-2 more actions.

Progress left on the docks; alas, i was hoping we only had 1 left.

Academia Nut said:
Sort of. It means that you can build it with advanced knowledge already in place.

Predictive Astrology will help with Place to the Stars, but maybe not via directly reducing actions needed?

Academia Nut said:
Logistically, if you want to maintain a pool of infected cows to ensure you always have it available, you might as well distribute to the rest of your people

Confirmation that the Khemetri will provide the pox warding to all (or at least most) of their population.

Academia Nut said:
Possibly.

Iron trade will "possibly" fulfill the trader quest.

Academia Nut said:
Your priests think so.

Priests are convinced astrology is worth the sacred warding...may or may not be true

Academia Nut said:
"Nice gardens!"

"Thanks, we work very hard on them!"

Clearly we need bigger gardens so they'll fully appreciate our magnificence... quick, we must move the palace to redshore and build 4 garden annexes

Academia Nut said:
The Highlanders can be very rigid about the rules and about enforcement.

Worrying confirmation about the Highlander value (though as others have said, thats influenced by other values and social systems and tradition. among other things our established community health focused law should help...)

Academia Nut said:
Sort of. It can spin off on its own, but its more often a subset of Diplomacy.

Info about intrigue skill for heroes.

Academia Nut said:
2. Broadly correct

In response to:
"To confirm for the quests, when it says "counters start next main", that means for, say, the Patrician quest wiht a deadline of 2 turns:
Turn 0 (This turn) - Quest shown
Turn 1 - First turn Hero has control
Turn 2 - Last turn to complete Patrician Quest, at any point before turn ends
Turn 3 - When main action choice update for this turn drops, quest fails and penalty taken if conditions are not met."

Academia Nut said:
4. Fairly high, depends what else you do

Regarding the chance that our hero will take Enforce Justice next turn if we dont now.

Academia Nut said:
5. It would be the Dragon Banner officially spun off, and assigned to hunt down what the boats find (if they find anything).

About the anti-pirate choice. So we'd maintain their skills and knowledge, which would be good

I think they were more horse focused than the red banner?

Academia Nut said:
6. When bored, the People go out into the woods and take care of things. The Centralization drop is granting additional authority to do these things without central oversight.

Info on the narrative behind Personal Stewards, which is the best centralization loss narrative other than making new provinces (where its just "its hard to manage so much land and so many people")

Academia Nut said:
Sort of. The majority of it is a stripped out ruin, but a section of the outer walls has been restored and extended to create an enclosed area. The Skull Wall was torn down and the Old Center is generally avoided, although it is rapidly becoming a slum where outcasts hide out.

Information about Xohyr. This is really interesting...i mean, how often is the center of a city the slums??

~~-Just to confirm AN, do the quest conditions need main actions for, say, chariots and glassworks, or will a secondary do? Will 2 secondaries on separate turns work?~~ Answered, if a certain action level is required, it will be specified. So secondaries are enough for both chariots and glassworks. Personally i'd say glassworks should still be a main if we can; its just a much better action.
-Does the additional guild actions round up like the province actions? (i.e. when we have 8 provinces, will we unlock an extra secondary guild action)
-This isn't a question but i wanted to make sure to let you know that the Faction Quests system seems like it will be a pain in the ass...but it also sounds like a great addition to the quest system, both in spite of and because of that additional difficulty

-Should there be a "no" option for the Personal Divinity / Personal Stewards of Nature choice? (also should the vote choice be "personal stewards"? Or is "personal divinity" just another name for the new value?Answered: there will be a No option in the future, and we won't have the extra action chance every turn.
~~-How dangerous does Hethytyn think going to 2 centralization until next turn would be?~~ Answered: "Ehhh... shouldn't be too bad, he's doing Main Enforce Justice."
~~-Why haven't the Swamp Folk asked to hire the Red Banner? Are the Red Banner busy again with tinriver or something?~~ Answered: "Bit far, and the Red Banner have been guarding Gulvalley while it picks itself up"
-Also, since you updated right after i posted it, i still have the questions from my last analysis:

Abby Normal said:
Also, two new categories, since i doubt @Academia Nut actually reads through the whole thing, consolidating the questions i have for him, in case he has the time/energy to answer, and actually wants to answer, and because unless its ends up part of the civ sheet, i'm going to try to maintain the Extended Projects list i requested:

Some questions from after this was posted:
~~-Should we have the option to chose the passive policy from redshore?~~ Answered: No, because its on the verge of popping, so that'll wait until its determined one way or another.
~~-Will our infrastructure policies favor quest actions (like the roads and temple we have as quests now):~~ Answered: "Somewhat, but not entirely"
-Why did the Heaven's Hawk attack the nomads?
-<Clarification for the Western Wall Integration question from last time>

[X] [Pox] Yes (Khemetri gain knowledge of how to do the Sacred Warding, the People gain Predictive Astrology)
[X] [Iron] Allow finished goods to be traded
[X] [PiA] Highlanders (Probably In Service to Order)
[X] [PiA] Trelli (Probably trade related)
[X] [PDN] Push forward forests (Sec Expand Forests, -1 Centralization)
[X] [PDN] Majorly push forward forests (Main Expand Forests, -2 Centralization)
[X] [React] Reorganize army and hunt deserters (Found Mercenary Company + Sailing Mission (anti-pirate))

guyfromtheplace1 · Aug 4, 2017

Because of their invitation to the Games, the Khemetri know of the Sacred Warding. Share the knowledge with them?
[X] [Pox] Yes (Khemetri gain knowledge of how to do the Sacred Warding, the People gain Predictive Astrology)
[] [Pox] No (-2 Diplomacy, Khemetri feel snubbed)

What to do about iron trade?
[] [Iron] Crack down on resale (-1 Stability)
[] [Iron] Leave it be
[] [Iron] Open up the market for the metal
[X] [Iron] Allow finished goods to be traded
I think we might be done with this advantage, let's build up our Ironworks and try to stay ahead of others.
Choose a new group to draw a PiA value from
[] [PiA] Khemetri (Probably Spiritual Value)
[] [PiA] Thunder Horse (Probably Honour Value)
[X] [PiA] Highlanders (Probably In Service to Order)
[] [PiA] Trelli (Probably trade related)
[] [PiA] Swamp Folk (Probably Honour Value)
[] [PiA] Nomads (Probably Honour Value)
Additionally Stability and discipline sounds like exactly what we need.
Choose a Personal Divinity reaction
[] [PDN] Push forward forests (Sec Expand Forests, -1 Centralization)
[X] [PDN] Majorly push forward forests (Main Expand Forests, -2 Centralization)
[] [PDN] Bit more black soil (Sec Black Soil, -1 Centralization)
[] [PDN] Lots more black soil (Main Black Soil, -2 Centralization)
[] [PDN] Push forward farms (Sec Expand Econ, -1 Centralization)
[] [PDN] Massively push forward farms (Main Expand Econ, -2 Centralization)

Reaction for the turn
[] [React] Stand down army (Main Retraining)
[] [React] Reorganize army and hunt deserters (Found Mercenary Company + Sailing Mission (anti-pirate))
[] [React] Pre-emptively meet forest demand (Main Expand Forest)
[X] [React] Meet yeoman demands (Sec New Settlement + Sec New Roads, meets Yeoman faction demands)
[] [React] Meet priest demands (2xSec Temple)
-[] [React] Sacred Forest
-[] [React] Dragon Graveyard
[] [React] Keep Working on the Docks (Adds another action towards the Grand Docks MP)
[] [React] Attempt to root out problems (Main Enforce Justice)

I might be convinced to change votes but this is what I'm leaning towards

Concho117 · Aug 4, 2017

Where's maximillian?

The Thread's just not the same without everyone's favorite Feudalistic sheep.

Academia Nut said:
Of course the traders were sort of happy that the elites were starting to buy more stuff locally, but their returns were better elsewhere so they were clamouring for the People to either increase production on something somewhere or get in on other trade channels. While the priests were glaring daggers at them over the idea that maybe there were some outsiders who no one would mind being sold to the Trelli because they were bad people anyway

BIG RED FLAG!

Looks like the traders are being influenced by the Trelli, I recommend avoiding any Trelli traits until they stop slaving. We should also avoid letting the Traders get too much power or they might start selling Ymaryns into slavery covertly.

Umi-san · Aug 4, 2017

[X] [Pox] No
[X] [Iron] Allow finished goods to be traded
[X] [PiA] Trelli (Probably trade related)
[X] [PiA] Highlanders (Probably In Service to Order)
[X] [PDN] Majorly push forward forests (Main Expand Forests, -2 Centralization)
[X] [PDN] Lots more black soil (Main Black Soil, -2 Centralization)
[X] [React] Reorganize army and hunt deserters (Found Mercenary Company + Sailing Mission (anti-pirate))

Astrology is lame, the pox is horrible. They shall suffer it while we do not!!!
Trelli cus I just want us to be more trade-oriented.
Forests cus... idk... just cus basically.

kilopi505 · Aug 4, 2017

[X] [Pox] Yes (Khemetri gain knowledge of how to do the Sacred Warding, the People gain Predictive Astrology)
[X] [Iron] Allow finished goods to be traded
[X] [PiA] Highlanders (Probably In Service to Order)
[X] [PDN] Majorly push forward forests (Main Expand Forests, -2 Centralization)
[X] [React] Reorganize army and hunt deserters (Found Mercenary Company + Sailing Mission (anti-pirate))

BungieONI · Aug 4, 2017

Abby Normal said:
About the anti-pirate choice. So we'd maintain their skills and knowledge, which would be good I think they were more horse focused than the red banner?

Yeah the Dragons were fast response shock chargers.

Abby Normal said:
Clearly we need bigger gardens so they'll fully appreciate our magnificence... quick, we must move the palace to redshore and build 4 garden annexes

Stahp. You are being silly.

Obviously we must make a floating forest on the sea that they get to sail through! Right @Omegahugger senpai? This is a good idea right?

Abby Normal said:
Patricians: Seriously guys, fuck off!

#FuckThePatricians

Finite Magician · Aug 4, 2017

[X] [Pox] Yes (Khemetri gain knowledge of how to do the Sacred Warding, the People gain Predictive Astrology)
Friends don't let friends suffer the pox.

[X] [Iron] Allow finished goods to be traded
Why not? Come get all the gardening tools you need.

[X] [PiA] Highlanders (Probably In Service to Order)
The word 'Order' draws me in.

[X] [PDN] Majorly push forward forests (Main Expand Forests, -2 Centralization)
Most unruly youths start fires when bored. Ymaryn youths start forests.

[X][React] Meet yeoman demands (Sec New Settlement + Sec New Roads, meets Yeoman faction demands)
So many quests to complete! Let's get to it~ *Is fine if pirate-hunting goes through*

Athas · Aug 4, 2017

[X] [Pox] Yes (Khemetri gain knowledge of how to do the Sacred Warding, the People gain Predictive Astrology)
[X] [Iron] Allow finished goods to be traded
[X] [PiA] Highlanders (Probably In Service to Order)
[X] [PDN] Majorly push forward forests (Main Expand Forests, -2 Centralization)
[X] [React] Reorganize army and hunt deserters (Found Mercenary Company + Sailing Mission (anti-pirate))

Tetsurou · Aug 4, 2017

[X] [Pox] Yes (Khemetri gain knowledge of how to do the Sacred Warding, the People gain Predictive Astrology)
[X] [Iron] Allow finished goods to be traded
[X] [PiA] Highlanders (Probably In Service to Order)
[X] [PDN] Majorly push forward forests (Main Expand Forests, -2 Centralization)
[X] [React] Reorganize army and hunt deserters (Found Mercenary Company + Sailing Mission (anti-pirate))

Falsehaven · Aug 4, 2017

[x] [Pox] Yes (Khemetri gain knowledge of how to do the Sacred Warding, the People gain Predictive Astrology)
We already are going for diplo with them.
[x] [PiA] Trelli (Probably trade related)
Dominate trade more around us, though the swamp value might be intresting mixed with the blackbirds.
[x] [PDN] Majorly push forward forests (Main Expand Forests, -2 Centralization)
More trees=good, and prep for glassworks.
[x] [React] Reorganize army and hunt deserters (Found Mercenary Company + Sailing Mission (anti-pirate))
Kill all pirates.
[x] [Iron] Allow finished goods to be traded
Completes traders quest.

Skjadir · Aug 4, 2017

[X] [Pox] Yes (Khemetri gain knowledge of how to do the Sacred Warding, the People gain Predictive Astrology)
[X] [Iron] Allow finished goods to be traded
[X] [PiA] Highlanders (Probably In Service to Order)
[X] [PDN] Majorly push forward forests (Main Expand Forests, -2 Centralization)
[X] [React] Reorganize army and hunt deserters (Found Mercenary Company + Sailing Mission (anti-pirate))

Finite Magician · Aug 4, 2017

There were some...er...technical issues, but Historia of Ymaryn is now back on air!
Today, we will be having a double release! Please stay tuned~
Big shout out to @BungieONI for the corrections, edits and all the support.
Now, without further ado, I give you 'Mahou Shoujo Charity'.

Historia of (Pre-Teens) Ymaryn: Mahou Shoujo Charity
Growing up in a sparsely populated corner of the town meant there wasn't much activity going on most of the time. Visitors were few and far between; less said of other children her age, the better. Ymaryn often hoped the vehicle driving pass their house to pull up against any of the empty lots, for the adults to unload furniture and the many children they had to knock on the door and introduce themselves, after which they'd become quick friends.

But when that didn't happen after the umpteenth time the cars rolled past, Ymaryn found herself staring emptily at the television set rather than out the window. A cartoon series she'd never cared for, a band of colorful, frilly girls repeating basically same scenario with different adversaries every week. Ymaryn reached for the remote as the villain laughed amidst all the fallen heroines.

"The champions of humanity fall! With this, there is no one left to stop me. The world is MINE!", bellows the morbidly obese creature, growing ever larger as it fed off all the lives in the vicinity. A child cries, wrapped in the protective embrace of his mother. A man struggles under the vile being's draining arts and weight of his loved one as she screams and begs to be left behind. An elderly couple intertwine their fingers while weeping, not for themselves but for their young.

"No. Not yet. You haven't won just yet, Famine."

It was a voice so frail, so weak it was a wonder that it was heard at all. Yet spoken with such purpose, it was. Where there should have laid those thoroughly defeated, one stood back up, eyes shining in grim determination.

"What...? How can you still move when I've drained all of you of all your magic?!"

Warm lights spilled from her as, in defiance of everything, power swelled from within her tiny frame. Glowing orbs burst from the gem over her heart, flowing along the luminous streams to her palms.

"Because I am Charity. It always feels like it costs nothing to me when I give my all."

Ymaryn decided to tune in to the same channel next week.

<<<Prev | Next>>>

Vanguard_D · Aug 4, 2017

[X] [Pox] Yes (Khemetri gain knowledge of how to do the Sacred Warding, the People gain Predictive Astrology)
[X] [Iron] Allow finished goods to be traded
[X] [PiA] Highlanders (Probably In Service to Order)
[X] [PDN] Majorly push forward forests (Main Expand Forests, -2 Centralization)
[X] [React] Reorganize army and hunt deserters (Found Mercenary Company + Sailing Mission (anti-pirate))

BungieONI · Aug 4, 2017

Finite Magician said:
There were some...er...technical issues, but Historia of Ymaryn is now back on air!
Today, we will be having a double release! Please stay tuned~
Big shout out to @BungieONI for the corrections, edits and all the support.
Now, without further ado, I give you 'Mahou Shoujo Charity'.

Historia of (Pre-Teens) Ymaryn: Mahou Shoujo Charity
Growing up in a sparsely populated corner of the town meant there wasn't much activity going on most of the time. Visitors were few and far between; less said of other children her age, the better. Ymaryn often hoped the vehicle driving pass their house to pull up against any of the empty lots, for the adults to unload furniture and the many children they had to knock on the door and introduce themselves, after which they'd become quick friends.

But when that didn't happen after the umpteenth time the cars rolled past, Ymaryn found herself staring emptily at the television set rather than out the window. A cartoon series she'd never cared for, a band of colorful, frilly girls repeating basically same scenario with different adversaries every week. Ymaryn reached for the remote as the villain laughed amidst all the fallen heroines.

"The champions of humanity fall! With this, there is no one left to stop me. The world is MINE!", bellows the morbidly obese creature, growing ever larger as it fed off all the lives in the vicinity. A child cries, wrapped in the protective embrace of his mother. A man struggles under the drain and weight of his loved one as she screams and begs to be left behind. An elderly couple intertwine their fingers while weeping, not for themselves but for their young.

"No. Not yet. You haven't won just yet, Famine."

It was a voice so frail, so weak it was a wonder that it was heard at all. Yet spoken with such purpose, it was. Where there should have laid those thoroughly defeated, one stood back up, eyes shining in grim determination.

"What...? How can you still move when I've drained all of you of all your magic?!"

Warm lights spilled from her as, in defiance of everything, power swelled from within her tiny frame. Glowing orbs burst from the gem over her heart, flowing along the luminous streams to her palms.

"Because I am Charity. It always feels like it costs nothing to me when I give my all."

Ymaryn decided to tune in to the same channel next week.

<<<Prev | Next>>>

Hey FiniteMag your next link on Origins is borked.

Rozencrantz · Aug 4, 2017

[x] [PiA] Trelli (Probably trade related)

Academia Nut · Aug 4, 2017

fictionfan said:
@Academia Nut : With Personal Stewards of Nature can we expect that the temples will be holding lessons on gardening and providing the tools and seeds to do it?

Yes.

Also, I will include a "No" option for PSN in the future, as well as it won't always trigger every turn.

Hyacinthium · Aug 4, 2017

[X] [Pox] Yes (Khemetri gain knowledge of how to do the Sacred Warding, the People gain Predictive Astrology)
[X] [Iron] Allow finished goods to be traded
[X] [PDN] Majorly push forward forests (Main Expand Forests, -2 Centralization)
[X] [React] Attempt to root out problems (Main Enforce Justice)
[X] [PiA] Khemetri (Probably Spiritual Value)
[X] [PiA] Highlanders (Probably In Service to Order)

Khemetri marry. Marry Khemetri. Yes.

Finite Magician · Aug 4, 2017

*Commercials play* *Subliminal Smokey Bear Message* *Cue elevator music*
Whispers from co-worker. "Well, I'll fix those links up real quick."
Remember to praise your vampire overlord, @BungieONI ~
Now, for a blast from the past, I present to you: Highschool Woes (1)

Historia of (Early Teens) Ymaryn: Highschool Woes (1)
Ymaryn outgrew her kid phase rather quickly, though it was easy to spot their lingering effects in her room. She never found a good hiding spot for her figurines of Magical Girl Charity and posters of the personification of awesome that was Gwygoytha.

Armed with little experience with people, she opted against the 'try to be friendly but come out offensive' thing she found common in shows and books. Now, to most, she was the quiet girl who lived on the hills.

Hardworking, helpful and always trying her best. That was how she was described, and that was how she was introduced to the class she was enrolled in the Lowlands Academia. The class gave a welcome that was more out of courtesy and resumed their usual activities. The said usual activities appalled her.

There were three cliques, not one, not two but THREE, each led by a leader she'd wonder at the circumstances of how they earned their position. They largely went by their nicknames than not, Dead Priest, Westcon and Spirit Talker. While she would attribute it to culture shock, there was very little she found to appreciate of them and plenty of flaws she could point out from her first impressions of them.

The first two were pushing unsavory tasks to those lowest in the pecking order while taking anything they wanted from them with thinly veiled threats, while the third let all this happen in apparent apathy. This looked less of a bullying ring and more of an established system and that implication was the worst of all.

Often, she'd find herself wondering what on earth the headmaster was thinking, allowing such behavior, then she'd remember his name and accept things. Headmaster Nut. Maybe they forgot an 's' at the end there, but the man was rumored to be absurdly capable at his job despite his eccentricities. She'd leave running the school to the mad man, trusting him to have a plan. She had many projects to complete for extra credits after all.

"Ymaryn, can you help me with this question?"
"Return these books to the library for me, won't you, Ymaryn?"
"Can you spare one of those rolls? I...the vending machine ate my change."
Some might have called her foolish or at least thought her gullible or exploitable when she assented to all those requests with a smile. But that didn't matter when friendship bloomed between the hands reaching out for help and the one that offered it.

That apparently was frowned upon by quite a vocal few, however. An example being the fellow student, older than he should be at his year and even then, far too large for his age.
"Ymaryn, was it?", he rumbles, malicious glint in his eyes. Her wrist caught, Ymaryn's muscles went taut as she tried to pull out of his grip, only for it to tighten.
"I heard you were offering bread to anyone hungry.", he continues on as if without a care.
"You know, I'm feeling mighty famished."

"Storm. Leave her alone."

It was very much to the surprise of Ymaryn that Spirit Talker had chosen to interfere, a hand with white knuckles already on Storm's shoulder. The oversized thug grunted, unhanding her but unleashing a flurry of blows as he turned to Spirit Talker. Ymaryn winced as she heard a particularly heavy blow connect, only to see the fist of Storm's firmly in a lazy grip of Spirit Talker's other hand.

"That, was uncalled for."

In one swift motion, the thick lower limbs of Storm were impossibly uprooted and their upper counterparts forced to take their place. As the bespectacled boy rose from his unconscious victim's side, he straightened his ruffled uniform out.

"Now, if you'll excuse me." he spoke, and belatedly Ymaryn realized he was addressing her, "I have a talk to have with Dead Priest."

Ymaryn watched as his figure disappeared down the hallway and decided that she would have to revise her opinion on Spirit Talker, at least.

<<<Prev | Next>>>

Paths of Civilization

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

Going really fast!

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

Please sir, may I have some Meows?

High Clerk of the Ymaryn

Going really fast!

Procrastinating.

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

Working within limits

Communist Penguin

Working within limits

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

Writing about sad cannibals as we speak.

Working within limits