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Paths of Civilization

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AN please, I had JUST caught up on all the posting and considering maybe starting analysis.

Now I'm 4 behind!

Also why is everyone voting so quickly?
I see hardly any discussion!

Raichu1972 said:
Also, this:

Legacy Gained
Kings Do Not Kneel (Three): Gain +1 Martial every phase during a Take the Crown or Great Power war
Gain +2 Diplo -> Overflows to +2 Culture

seems like a ridiculous Legacy.

From what I understand, War Missions generate multiple phases per turn.
This means if someone tries to take our Crown, we will be constantly buffing up the longer the War goes on, while always gaining martial in every engagement.
It basically makes attempts to beat us through attrition impossible.
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Note it only applies to Crown/Great Power wars.
As long as they attack us while on scanty basis, we turn into this big green regenerating monster.

CBs to watch out for:
-Revenge
-Reclaimation
-Trade War

If we acknowledge that our enemies have a point in their war, we suddenly get weaker.
Umi-san said:
@veekie ur quote is broken
I suppose that the locks regular sucking out of water wouldn't actually be *too* bad since it isn't very fast... idk.
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Waterlocks take negligible amounts of water. It moves like a couple thousand liters per operaton cycle.

The river moves like a couple hundred thousand liters per day.
It would be not unlike worrying that you might dehydrate from urinating.
Academia Nut said:
At the banquet in the evening, the king came up to the delegates from the People and asked if perhaps the commander at the Battle of Bloodvalley was among those present in the delegation. When informed that she was not, the king paused in contemplation before he said something that his translator had to ask if he actually wanted passed along. After confirming it so, the translator passed along the statement, "I am frightened, but aroused."
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That's true indeed.

[] [Mystic] Study her condition only slightly

Minimal effort, she doesn't deserve it.

[] [Mystic] Get assistance from a temple (-1 Mystic)

Dedicates effort to studying psychology. May improve mental healthcare, but not very good end for Yanyan.

[] [Mystic] Search the entire kingdom for someone who might understand her and put her at ease (-1 Mystic, -1 Econ, -1 Wealth, -1 Culture)

Goes for the longshot to give her the happy ending she deserves, but probably does not advance medical science. Good for social values though!

[] [Hero] The next heir was forged in this war (Guaranteed Heroic heir in the next main turn)

I think this is actually redundant, and risks excessive militarization. Our heir is already Excellent Martial, we have a Genius Martial still alive and ready to go for a few turns yet.

[] [Hero] The smiths working overtime produced a prodigy (Heroic to Genius level artisan)

Riddle of Steel!
Those working on the Steel problem might breakthrough. We'd have to dedicate to study metal to make it work though.

[] [Hero] The battlefield created a peerless medic (Heroic to Genius level medical mystic)

Medical breakthrough. This one should go with Poppies probably?

[] [Hero] One of the negotiators truly shone among the Khemetri (Heroic to Genius level diplomat)

I'd note that nobody has plans for extensive trade missions or diplomatic efforts. We don't have the Wealth to use Salt Gifts either. Wasted.

[] [Hero] Organizing all of this was hell, but one clerk refused to buckle (Heroic to Genius level administrator)

Superhuman administrators never served us wrong before. Especially on megaproject.

[] [Prov] Integrate Gulvalley (-4 Diplo, +3 Econ, +8 Econ Expansion, +2 Mysticism, +3 Culture, +1 Tech, new core province)

Note that this will pop Sacred Forest again.
We have enough Econ Expansion, because the excess will go into the colonies(aka Gulvalley).
Nice, but counterproductive

[] [Prov] Integrate Stallions (-6 Diplo, +5 Econ, +5 Econ Expansion, +8 Mysticism, +4 Culture, +2 Tech, +10 Martial, new core province)

We've been wanting to do this for a while now, but will go over-martial.
Fortunately our Martial cap has been raised a lot, and the veterancy won't cash in until next turn.
Just in time for the Games.

[] [Prov] Draw on Provinces (-4 Diplo, -8 Econ Expansion, transfers a total of 8 Martial and 8 Econ from periphery states into the core)

Restores military, but counterproductive. They need the Martial more than we do.
We need the Expansion more than they do.

[] [Prov] Rebuild Army first (Main Raise Army)

Just prepares to go whack the HK immediately

[] [React] Build more aqueducts (-2 & -3 Econ to complete aqueducts in Redshore and Redhills)
[] [React] Main Build Glassworks
[] [React] Main Expand Econ
[] [React] Main Expand Snail Cultivation
[] [React] Main Expand Vineyard
[] [React] Main Plant Poppies
[] [React] Megaproject - The Games
-[React] Kick Megaproject

I could go for a long analysis, but the Games are pretty much already locked in. I'll save the effort.

[] [Policy] Defence (+1 significant walls/turn) x1
[] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)

Meanwhile here, people already are going for Infrastructure, which isn't BAD, but puts us at an accelerating course towards cities sprouting like mushrooms.
We also gain benefits from having at least 2 Defense policies, since that means they can work together to build massive walls for free later.
Forestry to pay for all the forest consumption that Guilds will trigger.

[] [Bonus] Gain a random value slot
[] [Bonus] Upgrade a random value

Slots are hard to come by, and so are values. Hmm.
No bad choice here, but I'd personally take the value upgrade.

[X] [Mystic] Search the entire kingdom for someone who might understand her and put her at ease (-1 Mystic, -1 Econ, -1 Wealth, -1 Culture)
[X] [Hero] Organizing all of this was hell, but one clerk refused to buckle (Heroic to Genius level administrator)
[X] [Prov] Integrate Stallions (-6 Diplo, +5 Econ, +5 Econ Expansion, +8 Mysticism, +4 Culture, +2 Tech, +10 Martial, new core province)
[X] [React] Megaproject - The Games
-[X] [React] Kick Megaproject
[X] [Policy] Defence (+1 significant walls/turn) x1
[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade a random value

Hopefully the arguments get seen at least.
 
PrimalShadow said:
For reference.

Here are our current "common" stats:
Diplomacy 16 [+1]
Economy 12 [-2+12] {11}
Econ Expansion 10 [+2-12]
Martial 3 (+7) {7} (+1 Wealth income when Econ >= 10 from Census)
Wealth 3 [+5-2]
Culture 8
Mysticism 13 (+1) [+1]
Tech 4

Therefore, BEFORE OVERFLOW AND ACTIONS, we can assume that our stats next turn look something like this:
Diplomacy 17
Economy 22
Econ Expansion 0
Martial 10
Wealth 7
Culture 8
Mysticism 15
Tech 4

Given that the "Search the entire kingdom..." Mysticism choice is unabmigously winning and the Megaproject seems to have a solid lead in reactions, lets factor that in. Also, lets factor in having an extra two points of Population Explosion for the 7th province:
Mystic: -1 Mystic, -1 Econ, -1 Wealth, -1 Culture. 1 Mysticism cost refunded next turn. 1 EE refunded.
The Games: -2 Mysticism and Culture, 2? Econ (not sure if we pay the econ immediately). 2 Mysticism cost refunded next turn. 2? EE refunded.
7th Province: +2 Econ, -2 EE
Diplomacy 17
Economy 21
Econ Expansion 1
Martial 10
Wealth 6
Culture 5
Mysticism 12 (+3)
Tech 4

I think at this stage it is unclear which of the Integrate options is winning, so I'll do both of them:
Integrate Gulvalley (-4 Diplo, +3 Econ, +8 Econ Expansion, +2 Mysticism, +3 Culture, +1 Tech)
Diplomacy 13
Economy 24
Econ Expansion 9
Martial 10
Wealth 6
Culture 8
Mysticism 14 (+3)
Tech 5

Integrate Stallions (-6 Diplo, +5 Econ, +5 Econ Expansion, +8 Mysticism, +4 Culture, +2 Tech, +10 Martial, new core province)
Diplomacy 11
Economy 26
Econ Expansion 6
Martial 20
Wealth 6
Culture 9
Mysticism 20 (+3)
Tech 6



In both cases, Econ will overflow by >2, and our true cities will therefore restore 2 EE.

The final counts go:
Integrate Gulvalley
Diplomacy 13
Economy 17
Econ Expansion 11
Martial 10 {15}
Wealth 13
Culture 8
Mysticism 14 (+3)
Tech 5

Integrate Stallions (-6 Diplo, +5 Econ, +5 Econ Expansion, +8 Mysticism, +4 Culture, +2 Tech, +10 Martial, new core province)
Diplomacy 11
Economy 17
Econ Expansion 8
Martial 20 {25}
Wealth 15
Culture 12
Mysticism 17 (+3)
Tech 6



Hope people find this helpful!
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Pretty interesting. This suggests if we take Proclaim Glory then we'll hit stability 3 and have a chance of entering a Golden Age.

Sivantic said:
No, we are replacing that heir with a guaranteed Heroic Heir, as that heir is already much older and would only last one turn.

Genius Admin would not become heir for the same reason that Yenyna is not become heir. They are good at what they do, but terrible at everything else. Not only that, we would still have to deal with penalties for having a king with poor Administration.
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Hmm, I see what you mean.

Looking at the choices again, I note that it actually says, 'Heroic to Genius level administrator,' which I misread as guaranteeing a Genius. That doesn't appear to be the case, but it is possible. We might get a Heroic Admin Heir if we guarantee a Heroic Heir, but we equally might get Heroic Martial. So, I'm fairly happy with my vote. At the very least it will mean a Heroic Admin, although I'd still prefer Genius Admin just to see what form it takes.
 
Are there any objections to naming the river which goes through Valleyhome as 'Highland River'?
 
hylas240 said:
Is there any reason we couldn't also hold off on integrating Gulvalley for literally half a turn? The reason I didn't choose a support vassal policy is because I don't think anyone will go for it. That, and I don't think Gulvalley will collapse into fire and blood in the next 1/2 - 1 turn.

St loyalty might be maxed, but I distinctly remember AN saying that the WW would break away with the ST if they decided to split off...and the WW's loyalty was still high. It's also important to remember that this sudden influx of loyalty only came when we were at war, so I very much feel that it's a hollow form of loyalty that will drop quickly (since the Khemetri are taken care of). So far the ST have developed their own temple on a natural wonder, developed their own banner, built their own aqueduct, and built their own library.
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Half a turn is 10 years. Years in which they will get minimal state help after a brutal, all consuming war. They will survive, but it will not endear the people to the kingdom the same way intergrating them right away would.

Look at it this way. If we integrate the ST right now, we plan to take their army and distribute it throughout the rest of the kingdom, at a time when the ST actually have a purpose, as the nomads are still a threat. ST won't exactly love the king for taking control here.

If we integrate Gulvalley, the kingdom swoops in and gives them greater aid than they could as a colony. Much more positive feelings to the state for doing this.

Though I'm done arguing it. I'll let the votes fall where they may at this point, since I doubt either option is life or death. It's more that my personal preference is to help the people who need it, not the ones who give us the most advantage.
 
Gulvalley is literally begging us for integration and it works exactly like how was argued last phase--integrate them, put policies on Defense along with existing Infra policies and passive economic recovery from province actions, and they'll recover naturally and we can stop worrying about them.
 
Citino said:
Should also mention that part of my frustration is probably due to most ST people not really having a reason beyond 'We've been trying to do this for centuries!'
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Massive divergence of culture will make putting it off worse for us?
They alone generally have about 50% of our military abilities and our Heroic war leaders come from them?
Doing it when their happy with us is far better then waiting for when their not happy with us?
They are our oldest integrate-able state and thus the ones who are best to learn what exactly will happen narratively when we do go about integrate?
Having control over their lands let us develop them?
Putting it off has already caused a shit ton of problems that would have been solved if we done it sooner?
 
Citino said:
Half a turn is 10 years. Years in which they will get minimal state help after a brutal, all consuming war. They will survive, but it will not endear the people to the kingdom the same way intergrating them right away would.

Look at it this way. If we integrate the ST right now, we plan to take their army and distribute it throughout the rest of the kingdom, at a time when the ST actually have a purpose, as the nomads are still a threat. ST won't exactly love the king for taking control here.

If we integrate Gulvalley, the kingdom swoops in and gives them greater aid than they could as a colony. Much more positive feelings to the state for doing this.

Though I'm done arguing it. I'll let the votes fall where they may at this point, since I doubt either option is life or death. It's more that my personal preference is to help the people who need it, not the ones who give us the most advantage.
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Honestly? I don't really give a shit about Gulvalley, they can deal with it for awhile on our supply and rebuild, we might help them later, but w/e
 
[X] [Mystic] Search the entire kingdom for someone who might understand her and put her at ease (-1 Mystic, -1 Econ, -1 Wealth, -1 Culture)
[X] [Hero] The smiths working overtime produced a prodigy (Heroic to Genius level artisan)
[X] [Prov] Integrate Gulvalley (-4 Diplo, +3 Econ, +8 Econ Expansion, +2 Mysticism, +3 Culture, +1 Tech, new core province)
-[X] [React] Kick Megaproject
[X] [Policy] Innovation (Extra innovation roll each turn)
[X] [Bonus] At least two technology upgrades (exploding rolls)
 
[X] [Mystic] Search the entire kingdom for someone who might understand her and put her at ease (-1 Mystic, -1 Econ, -1 Wealth, -1 Culture)
[X] [Hero] Organizing all of this was hell, but one clerk refused to buckle (Heroic to Genius level administrator)
[X] [Prov] Integrate Stallions (-6 Diplo, +5 Econ, +5 Econ Expansion, +8 Mysticism, +4 Culture, +2 Tech, +10 Martial, new core province)
[X] [React] Megaproject - The Games
-[X] [React] Kick Megaproject
[X] [Policy] Defence (+1 significant walls/turn) x1
[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade a random value
 
Ghostdevil said:
Honestly? I don't really give a shit about Gulvalley, they can deal with it for awhile on our supply and rebuild, we might help them later, but w/e
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That's fine, I said that was my personal preference. I prefer to help those who are suffering when it is mentioned, and when we actually have the abilities and resources to do so.
 
I did a little list before the update. I figured I'd look into it again with this most recent update. We are, however, unlikely to really get to choose as it looks like the admin hero/genius is the pick of the day.

So, what are our priorities for the upcoming turns?
  • Centralization - This dropped pretty low in the last midturn and we could definitely spring for some road expansions to get our cent tolerance increase up.
  • Stallion Tribe integration - This is still an ongoing necessity in order to avoid firer separation and drift. This is an option in the current update.
  • Txolla Influence/Integration - They are pretty loyal at the moment, but they aren't much like us philosophically and culturally. I'm sure, though, that turning the TH/TS into paste really helped. We do, however, need to start eating them.
  • Western Wall Integration - While loyal, they're a little big. It would ease all of our minds if we anchored some of their provinces to us a little more firmly.
  • Tech Increase - We learned two things about tech recently. It affects our innovation rolls, so negative values are rather bad and can cause tech loss. It is used quite widely in wildcat innovation rolls actions. This makes it immensely valuable. The tech drip policy is an option in this update.
  • Metal Innovation - Errbody has iron. We need steel. We're close with case hardening, but not quite there.
  • Defensive Infrastructure - We have expanded a lot recently, and we had some large incursions into one of our peripheral states. We can't do. I have about that, but having strong defenses behind them will allow us to avoid worrying about our core and leave us better able to focus on the outside. War is something we are going to have to really keep an eye on in the near future. Iron has spread widely among our neighboring rivals and they will all be gunning for us now that they can meet us on more equal terms.
  • Forestry - This is, in addition to acting as a strategic resource, a defensive measure. Fighting in forests is likely our biggest boost when fighting on our own lands. Over even watchtowers and walls, having that favorable terrain is what will help us most. It also allows us to more easily expand mines and glassworks and will help us when we choose to build the Grand Docks.
  • Northern Trade Post - This is still a major consideration culturally (because big trees) and politically. There are two very valuable trade goods there and an otherwise untapped market. Wealth is more valuable than ever given how we burned through ours in a single turn, and any possibility for innovation that will further our other advantages should be grabbed.
  • Governors Palace - The Western Wall was going to build their own palace for administrative reasons, but it was planned for a pretty out of the way spot as far a step our core territories are concerned. We need to build one somewhere it allows them to use but is close enough to avoid them gaining any more independence or drifting away politically and culturally. I'm hearing that people see this as less of an issue now.
  • Highlanders - There is some movement towards trying to vassalize the Highlanders, a lot of people do want this. As @veekie mentioned, it would decrease the overall length of our borders as we wouldn't have the huge jutting extension of the Txolla. Using our genius general while she's alive is likely a good idea. TL;DR: Pretty Borders
  • Dam-kun - We do actually need that riverine network to extend into the lowlands. More econ to feed into the machine of our industry and more food to feed mouths to feed to our future wars.
  • Any others? I'll keep adding to this list.
 
[X] [Mystic] Search the entire kingdom for someone who might understand her and put her at ease (-1 Mystic, -1 Econ, -1 Wealth, -1 Culture)

[X] [Hero] Organizing all of this was hell, but one clerk refused to buckle (Heroic to Genius level administrator)
[X] [Prov] Integrate Stallions (-6 Diplo, +5 Econ, +5 Econ Expansion, +8 Mysticism, +4 Culture, +2 Tech, +10 Martial, new core province)
[X] [React] Build more aqueducts (-2 & -3 Econ to complete aqueducts in Redshore and Redhills)
[X] [Policy] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x1
[X] [Policy] Defence (+1 significantwalls/turn) x1
[X] [Bonus] Free Main Build Theatre
 
veekie said:
It would be not unlike worrying that you might dehydrate from urinating.
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???
I mean, you could, if our kidneys didn't adjust
I was worried that we would have random drops in water level that make the river sloshy not that our steady water level would be low

so it was kind of dumb

8bitBob said:
I hope people have considered that trying to implement eugenics with our dragon lady
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I'm voting for the option to find our dragon lady a husband because she deserves to find someone who likes and can understand her. NOT because she may have genius-level children. I don't even want her to have genius level children, just to not be alone. Her brother is dead. She has no one who cares about her as she is rather than her as what she's done.
 
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Updated the StratMap.
Borders haven't changed much on account of us kicking the teeth in of everyone who tried.
Some of the rivers have been named and corrected by WoAN.

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DocMatoi said:
You guys do know that max's entire raison d'etre in this thread is to destroy everything we've worked so hard on, right?
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I really don't think it is, because when it comes down to it, he votes intelligently and with a mind for the future. He just has a very different future from the one we all seem to want.

Edit: On that note, if he wanted to just be contrary, there's a lot more he could do with way less posting.
 
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Can we please have a roll to see if the NotEgypt Heir is her soul mate? It can become a big story that also serves as a history/metaphor for our two peoples.

The straightforward and stern Egyptians and the weird but exceptionally amazing Ymaryn and how even though they often did not understand each other they sincerely loved each other and their first meeting was a literal fight to the death they worked through it and set the example(justifying why we have intermarriage rather then just politics)

That and I'm imagining this universe's holy grail war and I want their legends intertwined.
 
Ladies and gentlemen, we smashed the 1300s barrier pretty good. On July 30, 2017, 1791 replies were post in this thread in a twenty-four hours period, marking the third time we broke posting record in July. Last seven days average is 913 replies a day alone.

This is about 71.64 pages in one day which is pretty nut.
 
Concho117 said:
Updated the StratMap.
Borders haven't changed much on account of us kicking the teeth in of everyone who tried.
Some of the rivers have been named and corrected by WoAN.

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The Thunder Speakers don't exist anymore. The Thunderhorse killed them. Took over the area.

Also, I think the rivers near the Thunderhorse/Swamp people was named a while back. I'll try and find it for you.
 
It seems like Yenyna wants a mate, interesting. While it's a shame that Reshem seems to be already married/have kids they seem to be young and so he's likely not too old,.

I see two options:

First, we could go for the Genuis diplomat, tie ourselves to the Khem, and try to have him marry Yenyna. I don't know if they have a history of multiple spouses, but the People sure do.

But that's essentially just giving away one of our best assets. And more personally, I do agree that whoever it is should be a companion to her - the other king is just too far away. So, the Genuis we pick could be paired up with her. Of those, I'm actually leaning towards the artisian - someone had to make the weapon that helped Yenyna break Reshem's many swords. It would make a good story.

So,


[X] [Mystic] Study her condition only slightly
[X] [Hero] One of the negotiators truly shone among the Khemetri (Heroic to Genius level diplomat)
[X] [Prov] Integrate Stallions (-6 Diplo, +5 Econ, +5 Econ Expansion, +8 Mysticism, +4 Culture, +2 Tech, +10 Martial, new core province)
[X] [React] Megaproject - The Games
[X][React] Kick Megaproject
[X] [Policy] Diplomacy (+1 Diplo/turn)
[X] [Policy] Trade (+1 Wealth/turn)
[X] [Bonus] Gain a random value slot

and,


[X] [Mystic] Search the entire kingdom for someone who might understand her and put her at ease (-1 Mystic, -1 Econ, -1 Wealth, -1 Culture)
[X] [Hero] The smiths working overtime produced a prodigy (Heroic to Genius level artisan)
[X] [Prov] Integrate Stallions (-6 Diplo, +5 Econ, +5 Econ Expansion, +8 Mysticism, +4 Culture, +2 Tech, +10 Martial, new core province)
[X] [React] Main Build Glassworks
[X] [Policy] Patronage (+1 Culture/turn)
[X] [Policy] Innovation (Extra innovation roll each turn)
-X] [Bonus] Free Main Build Theatre

I'm literally torn. Let's see what gets more traction.
 
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Concho117 said:
Updated the StratMap.
Borders haven't changed much on account of us kicking the teeth in of everyone who tried.
Some of the rivers have been named and corrected by WoAN.

​
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Cooooool!

*careful examination*

I do believe Xhoyr is in the wrong spot.
If I recall correctly it is further south east and should be approximately straight south of that little red tent hex in the East Thunder Horse, near the river.

And Stallions are near where the Black River forks.

Good map! Thanks!
 
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