- Location
- BaWü
That would go directly against Feudalism as they always used a mixed system of labour/food/coins because farmers had never enough coins and the nobles needed work done and something to eat.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
What about day labourers then, be they rural or urban? They don't "belong" to any one farm or other business. And they are quite a large class in ancient times. Read the parable of the workers in the vineyard in the Bible, for example.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
These all seem fairly obvious - I don't buy the argument that paying in labour is why our current system is failing, we know our current system is failing due to being unable to pay in coin and have pricing mismatches.
[X] [Law] Community health
I'm not nearly so sure about this one, but I think it looks better than the others?
On an unrelated note, now that we have come breathing room for Martial and we're expecting a fight soon, can we consider getting More Blackbirds? I really think that getting some spies - or at least informants - into other polities would be really useful. Knowing if they're thinking of war, if they've got some instability we can capitalise on, are looking for something we can gift them, etc....
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
These all seem fairly obvious - I don't buy the argument that paying in labour is why our current system is failing, we know our current system is failing due to being unable to pay in coin and have pricing mismatches.
[X] [Law] Community health
I'm not nearly so sure about this one, but I think it looks better than the others?
On an unrelated note, now that we have come breathing room for Martial and we're expecting a fight soon, can we consider getting More Blackbirds? I really think that getting some spies - or at least informants - into other polities would be really useful. Knowing if they're thinking of war, if they've got some instability we can capitalise on, are looking for something we can gift them, etc....
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- Location
- Australia
How would the kingdom even know they exist I doubt they'll be taxed under any of these systems If they not paid enough food or coin by the farms or places they work at to be worth taxing then why tax them at all it's not worth the administrative effort to keep track of them.
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- Location
- Canada
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Food] Food should not be traded outside the kingdom, except perhaps in times of crisis
(Commodifying food productoon is one of the worst aspects of globalist capitalism )
[X] [Heir] No, compromise is good (Mediocre Admin and Martial, Average Diplo)
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Food] Food should not be traded outside the kingdom, except perhaps in times of crisis
(Commodifying food productoon is one of the worst aspects of globalist capitalism )
[X] [Heir] No, compromise is good (Mediocre Admin and Martial, Average Diplo)
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
And a chance of cultural shock since everything is now measured in pieces of coin. Counterfeiting and coin shaving is now ripe for development.
Don't even know where we will get all the silver and gold for coins.
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
Enforcing taxation by coin is the way that historical nations made coins widespread.
The standard method was state purchasing of produce, and then taxation of said produce, thus currency is spread, and they get a good taste of taxes.
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Short of space aliens uplifting us that is impossible. Our society is not productive enough.
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
And a chance of cultural shock since everything is now measured in pieces of coin. Counterfeiting and coin shaving is now ripe for development.
Don't even know where we will get all the silver and gold for coins.
What historical society did, change metal content and introduce new metals. Or credit economy, and possibly written credit.
Wait a minute, would labour as farmhands count as labour for the taxation?
Which takes time to develop. Labor and coin is an intermediary step meant to prevent social disruption.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
So you are saying in a culture of communal caring tree huggers that not one person tried to help a obviously abused and underfed woman?
Not even when working in a government facility supervised by shamans? Remember all smelting and metal working center have shamans attached to it for health reasons.
- Location
- Australia
That's the big problem with any of these labour taxes you're forcing the government to keep track of every Tom Dick and Harry when the things you really want to be taxing are the places and means of production like farms and workshops and the people who are most wealthy.
- Location
- Staring into the void
We have specialists, they're not shamans.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
If they work on government projects yeah.
So all farmhands, because all farms are run by the government.
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
Eh they were rather rapid development. I mean credit sticks were quite old in England at least, predating letters of credit. And Thyre rather simple concept.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
So.... how would you stop government from massively issuing credit notes and crashed the economy like John Law's French friend who happened to be a duke with power?
It's entirely possible that some tried, but she ignored them. A big theme of her chapter was that the rules were simply too complex and she had given up trying to understand them. Again, the chapter was deliberately showing how awful things were at the bottom of the society at the time.
They may be a culture of communal tree huggers, but as the last few chapters have repeatedly shown, that does not mean they are above exploiting and hurting one another for their own benefit.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
You know, we have two problems arising that can be solved at once - Wildcat Prospecting fading away, and a possible lack of metal for our currency. Why don't we just take a survey action next turn, and kill two birds with one stone?
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I don't think so, we haven't got a completion dohicky for it yet.I won't vote until I've finished reading, but for now I'll just say, yay, Law only took three actions
(someone probably already said this)
Time to buckle in!
*puts on sunglasses, mounts the Rocket Throne!*
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeee!
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
I stand corrected, but none of those people tried to help?
ThrawnCA
Carbon-based biped
- Location
- Australia
I'm back!
So, looking at the update, it's clear that we already tax labor. So any arguments that labor+coin is impractical - eh, it won't be a step backward. Plus, I think that to take away the option of paying with labor would be highly disruptive, since currently all of our 3 million citizens are paying taxes in the form of labor.
I would ideally like to go for all three, but to minimise the risk, I think we should simply add coin as a second payment method, keeping the time-poor specialists happy.
Also, we should consider the likely mechanical impact of each choice. What kind of activity do we want to incentivize? Frankly, as awesome as the Population Explosion undoubtedly is, we don't so much need more incentives for people to produce food; we'd benefit more from encouraging them to build more public works. Exploding population with insufficient aqueducts will not be pretty. Fortunately, having all those people available will allow us to efficiently build those things.
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Law] Community health
The Law foci are all a bit fuzzy...but I like the reasoning behind this one.
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
I like this middle ground. People have talked a lot about maintaining power over other nations by controlling food supply, but what about the importance of helping or HALPING other nations? Once our needs are covered, we should reach out.
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
We've given a nomad a shot at leading us; let's give a Spirit Chief a turn. We've had excellent results from past mystic leaders.
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
[X] [Bonus] Gain new Social Value slot
I suspect that the monarchy upgrade is probably the best long-term option. But approval voting for the extra social slot, because that would be awesome too.
So, looking at the update, it's clear that we already tax labor. So any arguments that labor+coin is impractical - eh, it won't be a step backward. Plus, I think that to take away the option of paying with labor would be highly disruptive, since currently all of our 3 million citizens are paying taxes in the form of labor.
I would ideally like to go for all three, but to minimise the risk, I think we should simply add coin as a second payment method, keeping the time-poor specialists happy.
Also, we should consider the likely mechanical impact of each choice. What kind of activity do we want to incentivize? Frankly, as awesome as the Population Explosion undoubtedly is, we don't so much need more incentives for people to produce food; we'd benefit more from encouraging them to build more public works. Exploding population with insufficient aqueducts will not be pretty. Fortunately, having all those people available will allow us to efficiently build those things.
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Law] Community health
The Law foci are all a bit fuzzy...but I like the reasoning behind this one.
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
I like this middle ground. People have talked a lot about maintaining power over other nations by controlling food supply, but what about the importance of helping or HALPING other nations? Once our needs are covered, we should reach out.
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
We've given a nomad a shot at leading us; let's give a Spirit Chief a turn. We've had excellent results from past mystic leaders.
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
[X] [Bonus] Gain new Social Value slot
I suspect that the monarchy upgrade is probably the best long-term option. But approval voting for the extra social slot, because that would be awesome too.
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