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Paths of Civilization

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notgreat said:
That's what we said about our flat tax, and look at where that's gotten us- elites who pay the same absolute as the poor, which means they can just keep on getting richer since it's much less relative value.
That's what we said when we got the public education option, and that was probably correct, but we haven't yet had an opportunity to do it ever since.

Also, we're already at only 90% farmers. That's on the scale of the classical age/early America.


I have to say it's hard to evaluate due to not knowing fully how our system works. That being said, Labour is a lot better for the civilians if things start going wrong with our farming. Most farmers will pay in coin if they have excess food anyway that they can sell. Those that can't means they don't have that much excess food anyway, likely being stuck on bad land or lacking knowledge on how to do PROPER YMARYN FARMING TECHNIQUES.

If someone wants to try something new that might not be profitable immediately or just experiences a bad harvest, food+coin means they don't have anything worth paying with. Everyone can pay with labor at any time, it's a good safety net. It thus encourages more risk-taking and thus more innovation, since you'll always be able to pay your taxes no matter how badly things go for you.

I'm talking on the timescale of 5-20 turns of it being more useful. Short term there will be more disruption as the poorer farmers are forced to either dedicate some more time to labor or go to town to sell their food, but once they get more used to that it won't be a significant burden on them. The increased innovation and social safety net from being able to always pay your taxes no matter how bad things get for you will start paying out by then.

It should be noted that the wealthy elite will just pay in coin no matter what. I agree with the rest though.
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Considering our Ymaryn Farming Techniques(tm), we likely always have an excess of food, which means that food is priced lower in the market because it's always available.

A merchant might come by and sell some to give to the Highlanders or Trelli or something, but if a farmer can't get access to a market that will pay decent money for their food then their out of luck.
 
[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
 
[X] [Law] Balance of interests
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
 
Raichu1972 said:
Considering our Ymaryn Farming Techniques(tm), we likely always have an excess of food, which means that food is priced lower in the market because it's always available.
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The government is always buying until the granaries are full.
And at that point, we don't really want more food to be produced. We'd prefer to shift our population into doing unskilled manual labor on public works projects.

edit: If their labor is worth more doing our tax-powered public works than it would be worth doing farming, we want them doing public works.
 
[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Law] Balance of Interests
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
 
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notgreat said:
That's what we said about our flat tax, and look at where that's gotten us- elites who pay the same absolute as the poor, which means they can just keep on getting richer since it's much less relative value.
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I wasn't around when that happened. Also, wasn't that more as a result of everyone trying to create the perfect system and ending up nearly collapsing because of bad rolls thus having to default to flat taxes?

That said, I am going to sleep. I will bookmark your post and look over it in the morning to see if I have anything to say in response. Night everyone.
 
CeBrudras said:
Still allows for a big pile of farms to have a shared minimum sized granary for the sake of "efficiency", meaning they each only have to store a tiny bit of food and can sell all their output to enrich themselves.

Even without that, creating a minimum size rule that is fitting for all of our territory, from the breadbaskets to the mining focused areas, is pretty hard.
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Then just make a law that states that the available granary-space has to accommodate enough food to feed the local populace for *add time here*.

This isn't rocket-science.
 
notgreat said:
The government is always buying until the granaries are full.
And at that point, we don't really want more food to be produced. We'd prefer to shift our population into doing unskilled manual labor on public works projects.

edit: If their labor is worth more doing our tax-powered public works than it would be worth doing farming, we want them doing public works.
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There's only so many public works that can be done in one place, and if we have to constantly shuffle people around long distances in order to find them work then it's just going to lead to the dissolution of a lot of our smaller rural communities.

Edit: I really should be sleeping right now, so I'll get back to this later.
 
So, we meet at last, Tax. My fore-bearers had faced you with a fierceness befitting the Ymaryn name. I shall do the same.

Choose a philosophy: We have many choices. They all have benefits and drawbacks. As always, remember that we are only in the Iron Age.
[X] [Law] Honour the gods
Base the new law off our existing pantheon beliefs. The Law has the virtue of appearing as to be upheld by a higher power that cannot be corrupted. Our gods are all relatively benign. Crow is, however, the Trickster, Teacher and Devourer thrice foremost and cannot be trusted to uphold mortal justice. Perhaps a certain God of Clerks may find more paperwork being sent his way?
[] [Law] Maintain stability
Use the Law to keep everybody relatively happy, thus keeping Stability high. Besides the aforementioned boon, this has a neutral effect of lessening shifts in the status quo as favorable situations and the reverse for any faction are looked into and disrupted. Side-effects may include stagnating as practices that lower Stability preemptively snuffed out and large enough factions may get away with things as judging them would result in instability.
[] [Law] Balance of interests
Keep the wants and needs of all people in check with the Law. Pressure is applied onto more unsavory practices and a voice is granted to those usually unheard. Might birth a 'loyal opposition' in the council as it brings such matters raised by said voices into consideration. Current form of corruption is merely suppressed, however, and should there be enough calls for action or inaction, the far lesser faction would find its interests ignored.
[X] [Law] Community health
Encourage the spirit of caring for one's neighbors and fellow citizens with the new Laws. Does wonders for keeping the Ymaryn as gentle, generous tree-lovers. This approach does not tackle any issues regarding corruption nor does it help maintain order, however, and it can be argued that the domain of the Law is to be fair and impartial, not to encourage love and kindness.
[] [Law] Flexibility
Invent an ever-evolving code of Law. It would have any loopholes swiftly patched and allow for greater scalability and thus more room for growth. The changes made are expected to have backlash (stability loss) attached, however, and would require constant upkeep to remain relevant. An expensive, EXPENSIVE option to curb corruption. Run, clerks, RUUUUUUN!
[] [Law] Practicality of enforcement
Create a Law that can be upheld perfectly. Perceived corruption drops to zero. The government is seen to be doing its job as all lawbreakers are caught and promptly punished. Largely papers over the real problems and may also encourage people to only follow the word and not the spirit of the law.

How can taxes be paid? How will the clerks escape?
[] [Tax] Coin only
The clerks will celebrate and bring us into the next Golden Age with their sheer joy alone. Alas, it is not meant to be.
[] [Tax] Food or coin
Easily quantifiable but perishable and non-productive. Low-ish admin strain. Elevates farmers.
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
Hard to quantify but non-perishable and productive. High-ish admin strain. Elevates artisans.
[] [Tax] Food, labour, or coin
Run, clerks, RUUUUUUN!

Can food be sold?
[] [Food] Food should not be traded outside the kingdom, except perhaps in times of crisis
Boosts our resistance Econ damage due to crisis through the roof. No benefit to wealth gain. No admin strain.
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
Boosts our resistance Econ damage due to crisis slightly. Slight benefit to wealth gain. Average admin strain.
[] [Food] The crown will maintain emergency supplies through taxation, the rest is not their concern
No boost to our resistance Econ damage due to crisis. Major benefit to wealth gain. No admin strain.

Change the heir? Brains or Brawn?
[] [Heir] No, compromise is good (Mediocre Admin and Martial, Average Diplo)
Selling point is no major weaknesses. Pass.
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
Man who does thinky stuff.
[] [Heir] A strong general is needed in these times (Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Excellent Martial)
Man with big stick.

Upon completion of the law, choose a bonus
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
We can make it bigger, faster, stronger...Better.
[] [Bonus] Gain new Social Value slot
GET ALL THE SLOTS~
[] [Bonus] Randomly upgrade a value
Something will work better somehow.
[] [Bonus] Enter Golden Age immediately
Don't really need to, on the verge of one already.
[] [Bonus] Gain at least two tech upgrades (Admin and Social biased, exploding rolls)
To those tempted by this. Stop. Get some help. Say no to dice today.

I'll add in the crosses after some more thinking.
EDIT: Thinking done. Law to make the Ymaryn nice again. Labour or coins for tax. Government encourage a safety net in terms of food but allow excess to be sold (gives us coins from exports). Thinky man better than big stick man. A better monarchy system. Overall slightly above average admin strain expected.
 
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There are various arguments that labour is the most stable option available, and historically this would be completely correct, but given we have the Greater Sacred Forest food disruption is going to tend towards neglible; particularly as we reduce our temporary econ damage by from our government type, palace, and the census.

However, there is still great value with it. It tends to promote social harmony given you'll be working with others you may not have met before, and just like above, we have a factor that most nations didn't and that's Cosmopolitan Acceptance meaning we're going to be getting a constant flow of refugee's until we lose it and chances are us losing it would be our polity breaking up anyway. Refugee's that have just come into our polity wouldn't be assigned land as they'd have neither the skills, language, or connections; nor would they have wealth to pay taxes largely for the same reasons; so they fundamentally need to be able to pay taxes with labour, just as most poor urban people would.

Thus for me, it's an argument of whether to go for Labour or Coin, or go for Labour or Food or Coin. Due to my first point with us having Greater Sacred Forest, I'm honestly pretty tempted to go for the most flexible option. We have high stability, our fundamental technologies are much greater than what they were when we last attempted tax reform, and we've completed several incredibly helpful mega projects with the Census and Palace. The labour will help the general urban population which will likely grow given we have aquaducts popping up over the polity now (and due to our society, we can maintain a higher percentage of urban population given the excess of food) and as mentioned the refugee's where we'll be getting a constant influx likely until we collapse, the coin helps with the wealthy farmers and high valued occupations, and food in general due to the vast majority of our population being in farming.
 
Raichu1972 said:
It seems rather strange to call farmers a middle class, considering that they are around 90% of our population.

It also includes subsistence farmers, who make enough for themselves and their food tax but don't really have the means to sell their food to cities.

Also, with the currently wining vote being about community wellness and paying with food or coin, the urban poor likely (8% Max of our population) will be better looked out for by the state or adopted into a guild and given work to do for coin.
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Actually it's health to have a big middling class of population with little top and bottom, since this means most are self sufficient and doesn't rely on state for support. (Except disasters or weather events of course)

Urban poor could still move onto the rural to farm under our system, land is completely owned by the state afterall; most are still being managed by chiefs.
 
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Gain at least two tech upgrades (Admin and Social biased, exploding rolls)
 
Raichu1972 said:
Paying people who can't do anything else is all well and good, but how would you have farmers pay in labor?

They make up 90% of our population, and most of them likely don't live close enough to an area that need an aqueduct or library built.

If they can't pay in food, and we don't really have enough coin to properly spread it for everyone to use, then how will farmers pay their taxes?
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You're lacking an understanding of how agriculture works.

Farmers work during two seasons:
-Planting
-Harvest

They are relatively idle during two seasons:
-Growing season - Occasional weeding of fields.
-Fallow season - Conducting repairs on irrigation or retaining walls. <- This is considered government labor because they are working on maintaining government land.

The rest of the year they have low intensity maintenance work, which is why Yeomen are a thing, a farmer can march off to fight a war for several months without hurting the harvest.

So a farmer would trade his off-season work hours, which has a low value, for his taxes.

pbluekan said:
Yes, and it has been acknowledged in the update that it just isn't working. People pay others to do their labor tax. They have trouble defining labour for the king. Is it public works? Are the chiefs and clerks and oligarchs all exempt from taxes because they work in the government?



This is literally giving the top castes of society freedom from taxes. They are all educated and all work in the government, so none of them have to pay taxes on their income, whatever form that income might be.

This is what labour gets you. Pay in physical goods.
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Alternative payment modes dude. You can pay in Labor or Coin. Not Labor and Coin
The current system is Labor or Food.

Raichu1972 said:
It seems rather strange to call farmers a middle class, considering that they are around 90% of our population.

It also includes subsistence farmers, who make enough for themselves and their food tax but don't really have the means to sell their food to cities.

Also, with the currently wining vote being about community wellness and paying with food or coin, the urban poor likely (8% Max of our population) will be better looked out for by the state or adopted into a guild and given work to do for coin.


I currently consider upgrading our government to be more important, since it would improve everything we do.
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...you know something is wrong when the system you are advocating for is reinforcing wage slavery of the urban poor.

Farmers are a middle class because that's what they were in the bronze and iron age. They are the wealthy.
Thats why the Greek and Roman Economic models are based on an agricultural warrior base. They could afford their own weapons and armor.
 
[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Gain at least two tech upgrades (Admin and Social biased, exploding rolls)
 
Raichu1972 said:
There's only so many public works that can be done in one place, and if we have to constantly shuffle people around long distances in order to find them work then it's just going to lead to the dissolution of a lot of our smaller rural communities.
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Either
1) We have massive excess food production
In this case we want to move them off of farming. We're currently gaining +12 econ/turn, that means we need a lot of people moving off of farming and into other occupations due to econ overflow
2) We don't have significant food excess
In this case the price of food starts rising and the farmers are happy to be able to sell their food to pay their taxes

Coin+Food establishes a price floor on food. Coin+Labor establishes a price floor on labor.
The former has issues in times of extreme excess or lack of food. We often have lots of excess food, causing people to game the system (rich people buy cheap food to pay their taxes with)
The latter would have issues in times of extreme excess or lack of labor... but the Ymaryn are very good with spending excess labor since we have so many things we want to work on. Not all of them are local, but excess labor implies excess food anyway so that's not a big deal. If we have an extreme lack of labor that means something has gone either very wrong (everyone is dead, game over) or very right (everyone is finding better things to do). In which case our public works get a little delayed until we fix the price. A better outcome than people doing currency trickery with perishable food IMO.
 
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[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Law] Flexibility
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Tax] Food, labour, or coin
[X] [Food] Food should not be traded outside the kingdom, except perhaps in times of crisis
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy

Approval voting is awesome.
 
VoidZero said:
The clerks already started measuring food store and population, so i think the granary aren't going to be smaller anytime soon.

They have been keeping our population fed even in trying times.
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They have been keeping our population fed with our current policy where we store every grain. Currently, if a granary is full, we probably just build another one, meaning there is no reason to be sneaky.

If we change stuff so filling up our emergency reserves is a chore preventing people from enriching their families they will suddenly have a lot of reason to minimise the amount of "useless" grain they need store, meaning as soon as our production falls a bit the famine is going to commence way more quickly than we are used to.

I am really not confident in our kings ability to keep our reserves sufficient if our laws invite the forces of greed to fuck that stuff up.
 
CeBrudras said:
I am really not confident in our kings ability to keep our reserves sufficient if our laws invite the forces of greed to fuck that stuff up.
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That actually seems like a relatively easy litmus test for rule-breakers. Thanks to The Census we have a good idea of how many people are in each area. Our clerks can now count up the people and check to see if the granaries have about the right amount of food. If they don't, it's time to send in the Blackbirds.
 
Raichu1972 said:
There's only so many public works that can be done in one place, and if we have to constantly shuffle people around long distances in order to find them work then it's just going to lead to the dissolution of a lot of our smaller rural communities.

Edit: I really should be sleeping right now, so I'll get back to this later.
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Still wrong.
Okay, look at government unskilled labor demands.
We have the routine:
-Maintenance of Sacred Forest
-Maintenance of Canal
-Maintenance of Palace
-Maintenance of Temple
-Maintenance of Saltern
-Maintenance of roads
-Maintenance of aqueducts
-Maintenance of irrigation systems
-Maintenance of retaining walls(step farms)
-State material haulage
-Construction of new buildings
-Demolishing decomissioned buildings

We're a VERY upkeep intensive civilization, as we have vast amounts of public works that the government keeps in repair.
These are what are covered under the Labor tax.
This sets a minimum wage people must match in turn, because the state demand for labor is bottomless, you must be able to pay more than the state taxes to get labor.
 
[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy

I don't think food or coin is bad per say so I will not be arguing against it, but labor or coin seems marginally better. Community health seems to fit the Ymaryn communal vales best.
 
CeBrudras said:
They have been keeping our population fed with our current policy where we store every grain. Currently, if a granary is full, we probably just build another one, meaning there is no reason to be sneaky.

If we change stuff so filling up our emergency reserves is a chore preventing people from enriching their families they will suddenly have a lot of reason to minimise the amount of "useless" grain they need store, meaning as soon as our production falls a bit the famine is going to commence way more quickly than we are used to.

I am really not confident in our kings ability to keep our reserves sufficient if our laws invite the forces of greed to fuck that stuff up.
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Er... it's not emergency store, that's the other option no one voted for. The clerks knows how much food is needed to feed a population for X number of years and it works, so they aren't going to drop that practice.

Now we just say keep x number of year's food for current population and scale for it to remain x number of year's food, rest can be sold. No problem that i can see.
 
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